Great Western Coffee Shop

I understand that ex-Silverlink 150121 is currently at Laira for an internal refurbishment, and an external repaint into 'Local Lines' livery.

Luke

Correct.

Are they going to do anything with the DKS switches?  (Door Key Switches).  On 150/1s, they are non standard (for sprinters) BR1 key operated.  The norm is the trusty T key.  Apparently, it is easy to become locked out of the vestibule ends as the connecting doors are also operated by BR1 keys.  Should a guard leave a key in the DKS, he or she can be locked out of the vestibule and unable to operate doors :-)

I heard a guard tell a driver that the lack of intermediate door panels is also an unpopular feature of these trains.

Ripping out the inner city style 3+2 seating would also be a plus.

When I worked at ScotRail we had a similar issue with the Class 322, with cab door and DKS both operated by a BR1 key. After a couple of lockings out and having to operate emergency door releases most of my colleagues had fell into one of two camps: 1) always take the BR1 out of the DKS after each stop, or 2) acquiring an extra BR1, one for cab access and one for the DKS. Option two suited me as the lack of intermediate panels meant it was going to be the only place the doors could be operated anyway.

keeping 3+2 seating.

i am under the impression that this "refresh" is a short term tart up they will get full refresh when other stroke 1's arrive.

although things may have changed since i last spoke to me engineering contact so will see what comes back from laira.

I was under the impression there was "limited" funds available, and I don't think intermediate door controls or T-key DKS were going to be introduced... happy to be wrong though  ;)

Intermediate door controls are (or were) to be fitted to 150/1 as passengers are not to use the slam door if a 4 car turns up at St. James Park.
Usual caveats apply, they may change their minds if the safety people will agree to a few quid being saved.

There is nothing about the slam door that is unsafe, 150/1s haven't been barred from stopping at Avoncliff!

Sigh! The slam door is not a passenger access door (in normal circumstances) and it is clearly not desireable to have passengers using it.

what is difference between using slam door at short platform stations like avoncliff etc and using power single door of a 150/2 at same said stations??

I'm slightly confused and admit I'm guessing here, but isn't the gist of the argument something like this...?

It's fine for passengers to board/alight under the direct supervision of the conductor through the guard's slam door at halts like Avoncliff. What is not considered fine is passengers letting themselves in through the guard's slam door(s) in the centre of the train if a 150 works in multiple? Although I don't see how intermediate door controls help that situation. Can the guard's vestibule and external slam door legitimately be locked out of use when in traffic with a BR1 or T-key? How do other operators of the type deal with this apparent problem?

on a 150/1 passengers cannot access crew vestibule area to get at slam doors anyway,the saloon-vest door has a br1 lock.the crew doors will also be locked via handle from inside so passengers cannot access from platform side unless they have got a T key.

so in answer to your question the doors have to be locked in service for safety reasons other 150/1 operators will work the same.the saloon to vestibule door automatically locks when shut unlike a 150/2 where it needs locking with a BR1

OK, so where's the issue with using 150/1s in multiple then, and how does the provision of intermediate door controls have any bearing on this if those vestibules are locked out and pax can't get access to them anyway  ???

not ideal in multiple due to no through gangway although they get used this way,intermediate crew controls are so the guard can access from other places rather than having to make sure they are by cab for station stops,can be difficult on really busy services.

Lack of intermediate door panels on 150/1 stock makes it incredibly difficult for a guard to perform revenue duties effectively on stretches of line where stations are close together.  And as for 150/1s on the St Ives branch... forget it...or so I have heard.

From a driver or a guard?  :-\

You are right in that (150/2 local door) does happen now. But it is an interlocked door (the brakes are on in Step 3 when open). There is no such protection in a 150/1 hence the slam doors are not passenger doors in normal operation.

Having said that, neither is ideal. AIUI the plan for refurb is to put intermediate door controls on to allow the leading pair of double doors to be used at such stations.
I have lost count the number of times people have struggled / cursed / failed to get Bikes / buggies / XYZ through the single leaf of a 142 at St. James Park.

If it happens, I think it will be welcomed by our customers.

Incidently I think it is also planned to change the vestibule door locks (to what I don't know).

Vestibule door locks were being considered for a T-Key lock change, but again if money is tight, then I doubt that'll happen and it'll be BR1 all the way.

'Twas a guard telling me IIRC  :P

The current 'refurb' on 150121 will NOT feature intermediate door controls. It will also NOT feature new locks on crew vestibule doors, however money has been invested in new stickers reminding you to 'Remember BR 1 Key'. 150121 is also set to emerge from Laira in Silverlink livery.

When will it receive a new livery then? Seems like the works were completely pointless if they are only going to do half a job?  Surely have been better to wait until they receive more units and do the full thing? 

Is the 3+2 seating likely to remain after the full refurb at a later date?

more info on the 150/1 "refresh" they are having a minor tart up for want of a better word.
similar to what they did to 142 fleet,not sure if they are getting new paint job yet?? one would expect it to but if money is tight then i doubt it.

once we get all other 150/1's they will get a more substantial refresh as part of FGW30 program.

Whats the FGW30??

Are the silverlink sets in a bad state then, to the extent they need a refurb?  Seems stupid, as they are happy to have the coaching stock on the loco hauled set running about in non FGW interior.

121 should keep Silverlink for meantime, but 127 follows it into Laira it should emerge reliveried....

it was mentioned in the weekly staff newsletter that it is just a tart up that they are having and a full refurb will follow when we recieve the rest of the jung from LM, they are in a hell of a state at the moment internally!

And with short-forming of units what it is at the moment, the sooner they are out of Laira and in-service the better, regardless of exterior!

150127 will be liveried in a simalar manner to the HST power cars, using paint and no vinils. Common sense has prevailed regarding sticking large vinils onto steel bodied carriages

121 & 127 will be tagged onto the end of the refresh program for the other 150/1's after these have been done. However none of these 150/1's will recieve local lines livery vinils.

150121 and 150127 are also permitted to call at St James Park in the Exmouth bound direction when in multi with another unit.

What happens to the brake interlock on a 150/2 if the driver puts the F&R switch to Neutral when the train comes to a stop & before the guard releases or operates any of the doors?
 ;)

The slam crew doors behind the cabs are not accessible to the public as the saloon end doors are of the type which requires a BR1 key to operate the handle from the passenger side of the door. Ideally this lock would be changed for a T Key type lock as fitted to the Cab doors on the other 14x / 15x but it is not a safety requirement per se that the locks are changed.

Hasn't happened yet though, to my knowledge at least.

It was being discussed in the Messroom at EX the other day and nobody could think of an occasion when 150/1+ anything had been to Exmouth.

But when there are 17 on the fleet it'll happen

well i see where you are going brakes in any step and neutral selected before door release brakes can be released with doors open so long as you do not select direction or go in to emergency,then you will need doors shutting to re-release brakes.

I've been to Exmouth with a 150/1 + 153. I think on that occasion the 153 was leading going towards Exmouth though.

I believe the local staff reps are going to ensure a method of working is agreed prior to introduction of the other 15 150/1's. They will have plenty of time I understand the 172 project has had another set back in the form of serious back pressure issues in the Exhaust system. May 2011 is now being mentioned.......

i think they have severe problems with parts suppliers going bump aswell.

No, that was some time ago, which meant Electrostar production ground to a halt at Derby, which in turn meant they were late setting up the production line for 172s.

I'm trying to get my head round the issues with the 172 order. 170 and 171 units are a well-established and successful design. Were significant design changes made to the 172s, and if so why on earth would that be done?! Why couldn't LOROL et al have ordered 170/171 stock that would have worked "straight out of the box"?

The lightweight bogies (like 220s) required the exhaust to be completely re routed - there are apparently problems with exhaust gas affecting the aircon somehow. I'm not sure but the engines may be a newer type to meet current emissions regulations, and the gearbox is mechanical, rather than hydraulic as in the 170/171.

Paul

class 170/171 trains are popular and work well but they are not prefect.  Compared to a 158 they are heavy and therefore less efficient and attract a higher track access charge.  IIUIC, the class 172 is an attempt to mitigate those problems. 

I think they will be hard pressed to manufacture a modern train that is sufficiently lightweight compared to the sprinters as there is so much modern junk which needs to be fitted to tick a box for a Bureaucrat sat somewhere in Belgium!

Some pics

http://d5351pix.fotopic.net/p65269491.html

(Once again not mine)

well 121 interior certainly looks better although i notice same floor covering and seating (bar new covers)
so i suspect there will still be a problem with them coming loose.time will tell.

when they get full refresh lets hope the above gets addressed

Not quite correct. Close but no cigar.  ;)

The exhaust (which as has been mentioned has to be rerouted round the bogie rather than over the top of it due to lack of clearance) is apparently somewhat restrictive and causing too much back pressure at the turbocharger turbine outlet. It will be noted that pressure difference and heat energy is what drives the turbocharger turbine wheel so creating a large restriction downwind of the turbocharger is not a particularly good idea.

There is a lack of performance with the sets as a result, depending on who you talk to depends on how slow they are said to be.

The ZF Ecomat 6 speed transmission is not thought to be causing any problems.

http://d5351pix.fotopic.net/p65269473.html (http://d5351pix.fotopic.net/p65269473.html)

Somebody appears to have died while trying to finish the work......
 :o

They've been there for years, hence the set stinks when you board it first thing in the morning.......

Stoatopic!!!!

Sorry folks - those pix were taken on the depot and so weren't intended for such a wide distribution (they were being shared with other staff, and I should have password protected them sooner). I'm sure someone will be along to take some shots of it in service in due course.

As for the BR1 key sticker, it cost nothing to get it included in the label pack and looks a damn sight better than "Don't forget your BR1 Key" scrawled in black marker pen!

To set the record straight, the work on 121 comprised simply:-

- Internal repaint
- Renewal of all seat cushions plus covers (not just new covers)
- Heavy Clean

As others have already alluded, the intention is to cycle these two units through again when the remainder of the 150/1s go through refresh.

As for 150127, expect more of the same as 121 got, including it's release with the current external paint job. Nothing yet in the scope for repainting the outside!

Thanks very much for that useful insight, d5351 - and a warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

Chris.  :)

And perhaps my apologies for posting a link, however if it's floating around on wnxx then that's a good enough excuse in my opinion.

No apology needed. Wasn't having a pop and I'd missed the link on WNXX :-[. As I said, should have stuck a password on the pages sooner. If I get time tomorrow, I'll re-post some of the post refresh interior saloon ones on a different page and post a link.

As stated its only a stopgap job until a more robust refurb program is in place as more 150/1s arrive on the shores of the West.

As for not going on the st Ives  ??? 121s been on there for about 3 days in the past week including being coupled to another unit.

No corridor connections at the ends ::) well boo hoo, how the hell do you think they cope up country not only with 150/1s but loads of other units when coupled together, get a grip you've obviously had it too easy with your 150/2, 153, 158 combo's.
Its quite easy to move from one set to another at stations if you are that desperate to do your revenue bit.
As for the St Ives (again) plenty of help for the summer so no problem.

Its a good job your local friendly WNXX moderator keeps you in the loop!
 ;D

150127 back out to play, should have been on the Gunnislake this morning unless it was a typo which should have read 121 ???

150127 been back out for a couple of days now, just the same interior freshen up as per 121, so for the time being the repainting rumours have come to nothing  ::)

 Found this
Inside the belly of the beast (150127)

http://www.curlysphotos.fotopic.net/p65644930.html

Hasn't taken long for 150127 to get tatty. Aside from the end of day litter, I noticed two seat covers that were unthreading, etched windows and flooring coming up. She was on the Severn Beach line tonight (30/06/2010) in multiple with a 153. Quite what she was doing up here I don't know - any further north and she'll be back in London Midland territory!

I've never been a big fan of the 150/1's, and I positively hate 3+2 seating. The 'refresh' seems to have been done on a very tight budget and I'm sure those responsible did their best but a phrase kept popping into my head.... "Polishing a t*rd".

Anyone know what 150127 was doing in Bristol? And does operating 150/1s on the SVB line require multiple working with a 153? If so, why?

With the guard stuck in the 153, there was no revenue protection whatsover.

150/1s in Bristol is hardly a rare occurrence. They were based at SPM initially!

I cannot see any reason why a 150/1 could not operate on its own on the above metioned service unless there was a fault on one end of either the 150 or the 153.

I have been told how much they were allowed to spend on each of the four vehicles but unfortunatley i am not allowed to say but yes it was a tight budget.
Lets not forget that this is just a stopgap until the rest turn up (should say if really) and a more thorough refresh/refurb goes into full swing.

it was indeed a tight budget just as an interim measure,the lifting of flooring and etched window were probably there pre refresh but the budget did not stretch to repairing this time around,will have to wait until next year for proper job.lets not forget all west sprinters are to be fully fitted with laminated glass.
another thing to remember 150127 was rushed a bit more than its brother because needed to be in service in time for glasto extra workings.

i personally think with what money was available a decent job has been done,finally all 150's are based at SPM currently EXE only have pacers at present.

Fair enough, I should've queried what 150127 was doing on the SVB line rather than just in Bristol. First time I've experienced a 150/1 on this line. 150/2s or 153s are more usual to replace faulty 143s.

Not for long from what has been decided - assuming the others ever arrive of course.

a silverlink liveried unit has just gone down heading towards Penzance passing Gwinear road at 1535 approx, i have clear view from my living room of the main line

quite correct EXE will be losing the pacers and gaining 150's once we get all the stroke 1's.although not sure if it will be a mix of 1 and 2's all class 150 or just the stroke 1's.obviously the level 5 stuff and T/T will still get done at SPM though.

Care to explain 'level 5 stuff' and 'T/T'?

Thanks awfully  ;)

Guessing what was meant was level five exams (someone else can tell you what happens in those) and tyre turning, guessing EX doesn't have a wheel lathe.

Ta.

I was under the impression that exams were lettered rather than numbered. The 'T/T' makes sense though.

Apparently delivery of the new 172s that will enable the 150s cascade to FGW is 6 months behind schedule because rooting of the exhaust system is causing back pressure on the engine and limiting speed to 45mph at the moment.

Level 5 is an old BR term (but sill generally used/recognised within the industry) for heavy overhaul work (C4 and C6 exams on DMUS).

T/T = Tyre turning

LM should release 150125 to us on 19/07/10 apparently.

level 5 stuff is different to the routine A and B exams etc,it refers to stuff like engine,transmission changes aswell as C4 work which is bogie,shafts and couplers etc.
then you have c6 work which is overhaull of interior stuff like door systems,relay renewal and interior fittings clean/repair or renew.
T/T is tyre turning.
At present EXE depot does not have any lifting equipment or a lathe to carry out these type of repairs

150125 is down for a holiday for the Summer, so thats 3 weve got to play with.

thats in the newer livery isnt it

has it arrived?

is still in Central trains livery I believe, with the large "C" at the ends.

Should be at SPM by now

Will be out in traffic with FGW from Monday 19/07

well that answers my earlyer question reguarding spare hst's  ;D

Number of power cars in fleet 109
Number needed for sevive 100
Number available 99
As of Friday Morning
Number of sets needed for service 50
Number available for service 49

Although this changes on a daily basis.

There haven't been any HST vice West units and v/v.

i guess jokes are not acceptable on this thread  :P

Where do these figures come from? You've managed to lose nine of FGW's 118 allocated Class 43s to start with, or have they secretly stored some?

A fleet requirement of 50 sets out of 53 in the fleet suggests availability on a heroic scale - 94%, which seems somewhat improbable with a diesel train, that, however much modification it has had, is getting on a bit. Even Virgin only expects 90 per cent with Pendolinos (47 sets required daily out of 52) which I had always understood was considered to be pushing it a bit, even with more modern electric trains.

Coaching stock data is correct speaking with somebody, however the powercars are far more lax.