Great Western Coffee Shop

This is a dilemma I've faced several times recently and I'm not sure whether I'm doing things right or not, especially with the full introduction of Penalty Fares.

I get on a train at Redland and arrive at Bristol Temple Meads ticketless.  With only 8 minutes connection time (i.e. an unofficial connection), do I buy a ticket or jump on my next train?

I'm a bit of a chicken, so always queue up at the excess counter to buy a ticket along with my fellow Severn Beach Line passengers.  I missed my connection once, but other times I haven't.

Is it perfectly reasonable to just get on my next train without a ticket, even though I've not allowed enough connection time?  Should the guard be found asap or do I just wait for them to arrive at my seat?

My interpretation of the NRCoC are that provided you started your journey at an unmanned station, you can buy your ticket on any part of your journey.  Is this correct?

Essentially that's correct - you are supposed to buy a ticket at the "first reasonable opportunity". On the short journey from Redland, if the conductor doesn't make it round to you because the train's too busy then that's not a reasonable opportunity (although if possible you should always approach them). Obviously, locking yourself in the bog on an empty train to avoid paying doesn't count!

For penalty fare purposes, the station where you started your journey is what matters. Since you started at Redland which is not a penalty fares station, you can't be charged a PF. Revenue staff have to take your word for this.

However, in your case you're not making an official connection at Temple Meads which muddies the waters - minimum connection time there is 10 minutes. If it was an official connection then you're definitely covered and entitled to purchase the discounted ticket at whichever stage of your journey presents the first reasoanble opportunity. Since it's unofficial you might give yourself problems if anyone realizes this.

From the DFT website.

Interchange.A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

This is a bit confusing. The first bit seems to imply that you can be penalty fared. The second bit then says you can't be.  The point about missing your connection is relevant to your question, but I would argue that connection times are recommended, and there is nothing to stop you trying to make a connection that is shorter.

Another possible line of reasoning is that the published connection time varies proportionately to the size and complexity of the station, not because you might have to buy a ticket. So I'd suggest once you've had a quick look and found there's a major queue at the ticket office, you should be ok to just carry on with your connection.

But to be on the safe side, mention your problem to the guard as you are joining his train, rather than let him find you 2 hours later...

Paul

If you make every effort to find conductor as you enter train and are open and honest, then you should be ok as a fare evader is unlikely to be making the effort to find the member of staff. The sooner you make yourself known to a member of staff the safer it is for you increasing the chances of not having any problems

Which is what I generally do ..... except on at least two occasions, I've still come across a jobsworth...

I posted last year about - here's the summary version......

Arrive at slough - use season ticket through barriers as was running late

Can't remember why but last minute decided to go to paddington - I think it was to get summit from yo sushi but I may be wrong.

got on the XX:40 oxford train which then had a stone through the window at hayes (I think) and proceeded at a crawl to paddington. Tried to flag down the TM even banging on the TGS as it was a 2+7 and couldnt raise him. Got into paddington with barely enough time to jump onto the last sensible train to newport (was during the blockade) the queue at the excess office precluded me getting the train .

Flagged down the TM - explained everything including the stone through the window - got excessed ^180 for a PAddington to Newport first class anytime rather than what I wanted which was a paddington to slough return and a didcot to newport single.

....BUT, NRCoC doesn't come into effect until you have bought a ticket !    ;)

"When you buy a ticket to travel on the railway network you enter into an agreement ................... These National Rail Conditions of Carriage are also part of that agreement and they apply to all domestic (non-international) journeys by scheduled passenger train services of the Train Companies on the railway network of Great Britain."

There is also the byelaw 18(1) which states that you must buy a ticket before travelling if facilities exist, where the byelaw's/NRCoC contradict each other then it is the byelaw that will stand (as stated in the NRCoC) so although strictly speaking you may not be penalty fared you could still be prosecuted.

And with the Byelaw it doesn't matter where you started your journey, it just matters where you boarded the train that you are caught on, so a true "jobsworth" as you put it would probably just prosecute if confronted by someone quoting PF regulations to them.

Best to just find the guard on the Severn beach line i'd say!

Sorry vacman, but that's not correct. Here's byelaw 18 in full:

(my emphasis in bold)

So you're still protected if you started your journey at a station where tickets were not available, even if you have changed onto a different train in the meantime. This is also made plain in the CoC, which further state explicitly that a TOC, its staff or agents have no authority to alter, waive or disregard any of the CoC.

Come to think of it, I suspect section (3)ii also applies, given that there are generally notices on the timetable board at unstaffed station like Redland instructing passengers to buy their tickets on the train.

Sorry to change the subject here... I've seen on the PF posters that travelling in First with a Standard ticket is liable for a penalty fare.

What are the rules if you have full intentions to upgrade your ticket to First Class?? Normally when travelling FGW, SWT or XC i've never had a problem and sold upgrades without any issues whatsoever. (But it will normally be a weekend I upgrade as on a weekday i'll have 1st ticket already.) My concern is will this still be acceptable when PF's come to force?

Normally I will have the money/company card out ready on the table so it does show I am willing to pay, and telling the TM how much it normally is helps too... ;D

This leads me onto a Weekend First upgrade with PF's - It states quite clearly about travelling in First with a Standard ticket is liable for a penalty fare, But when you try and upgrade at the ticket office (In my experience) I've always been told to pay the upgrade on the train. Which defies the whole point of the rule IMO...?! What would be my rights if I came across an over zealous TM who tried to issue PF because I couldn't get Weekend First at the station...??!

Weekend First upgrade is a totally different situation to a First upgrade during the week.

FGW's literature says you can buy onboard or at a ticket office, no instruction on the website about finding the guard before taking a seat.

In the case of SWT it is clearly stated that you find a seat and 'buy onboard', but in either case a PF is clearly impossible.

Paul

But, just to round out Paul's answer, during the week unless you had purchased an upgrade before your journey you would be liable for a PF if you started your journey at a penalty fares station (from which you could have purchased the relevant upgrade, obviously) and get checked on a penalty fares train by an RPI.

I suspect Weekend First is covered by the following clause in condition 2, seeing as the notices and publications of the TOCs offering weekend first make it clear that it can in most circumstances* be purchased on-board.


_{*but not all - weekend first upgrades from, say, Paddington to Oxford have to be purchased at the booking office since many of the trains are DOO and won't carry any revenue staff.}

I got caught short at Windsor the other day... Got connection from Reading to Slough and then straight to Windsor as the train was there rather than going through the barrier to buy a connecting ticket. (Usually my girlfriend picks me up from SLough but couldn't giving me 15 minutes notice of that fact)

There are never any conductors/TMs on this Slough to Wndsor service (nor on the service between Reading and Slough) but on this day they were doing penalty fare checks at Windsor & Eton Central. ^20 lighter I vowed to get a ticket to W&E in the future!

Could you not have stayed on the train/got back on - gone to slough, got ticket, then gone back to windsor - or was time an issue.

Thats what I did once in a similar situation

Back to the byelaw though, it could be argued that the JOURNEY is the journey on the particular train, as each journey is dealt with individually in most cases.

No this is no longer the case.  When they bought in the new weekend first prices ie from ^5 to ^20 they removed this differential.  All weekend first can now be bought on the train.

I believe it is referring to the fact on some trains in the Thames Valley it wouldn't be possible to upgrade on the train due to lack of staff.

 Personally I think FGW have some work to do before they can impose Penalty Fares.

 SWT had to supply not only ticket machines, but permit to travel machines. So you had every opportunity to buy some
 authority to board the train.
 I am stongly opposed to PF as it can penalise the honest traveller.

Permit to Travel machines are not required, and have been removed by SWT except where there is no TVM at all.  I think Redbridge and Millbrook are the only stations I can think of with PTT machines in this area...

Paul

Well if the staff dont come around that is not the passengers problem.  As I said upgrades are available on any train and do not need to be bought before travel.  I think it has been done for simplicity so all trains are treated the same way.

FGW's website actually says:

Weekend First upgrade:

.....You can buy in advance at ticket offices and on board High Speed services.

Um I see your point.  There is no warning as to what will happen if you buy it on board a turbo service.  And what is a high speed service anyway.  Its not really a definition which is used very often and how is the travelling public supposed to know the difference.  I can see it in the press I got a penalty fare because my train did not go fast enough !

Also in the entry in the fares Manual which is what FGW staff should refer to no mention of the need to purchase before you board on non High Speed Services

I know you can get it when you book online on some services... But if you ask for Weekend First, in my experience, i've always been told to get it on the train. They appear to disapprove of selling you WF at the station...!

Sort of makes me think of a catch 22 situation... ::)

 I would have thought that first class upgrade is subject to availibility.
 If you bought your upgrade in advance, but in the event of first class being fully booked/full (albeit unlikely), could you claim a refund, or told to stand in first class.

I think I'm right in saying that whenever a Weekend First is sold in advance, it must be sold with a reservation. Presumably this is to prevent such a situation.