Great Western Coffee Shop

In the north we're hearing stories that the replacements for the 180s that Northern have sub-leased from East Coast will be the FGW 142s as the 8 Northern 158s sub-leased to Scotrail are staying there under DfT orders.

However, apparently East Coast want the 180s by June to start work on maintainence and refurbishment, but the FGW 142s won't be released by then as that is dependant on 172s replacing the London Overground 150s.

Has anyone in the South West heard anything that conflicts with that?

The Blackpool line will see at least one loco hauled set ;D

There was a report on you and Yours that Bombadier are late with teh 172s.

So don't hold your breath.

Comment has been very cagey ... merely that "contingency plans are in place" if the 150s are late. I got a distinct feeling of "we're not going to tell the customers what we'll be doing" though it looks rather likely that there will be a void somewhere that should have been filled directly or indirectly by 172s. 

That could be in East Coast's workshops with the 180s not going in, on the lines that the new trains were due to serve, or anywhere in between along the lines of "any units that can be uncoupled to make extra but shorter trains will be".  But this final paragraph is purely a statement of some of the logical options.

That is what I heard as well 142 back to nothern depending on the cascade from LO

The rolling stock deal has been signed but can't remember the details of it. Needless to say the 142s are going from FGW to Northern enabling the 180s to leave, some 156s are going to EMT with the 150/1s being refurbed to 150/2 standards apparently that are meant for FGW.No doubt someone will be able to post the full list soon

I think it is fair to say that the 142s are only the initial replacement for the Northern 180s. FGW are down to get 6 x 150s from LO, and 9 x 150s from LM (as far as various reliable sources have explained it). Nearly all the rest of LM's 150s will be going to Northern eventually, I think it is a lot more than FGW get.

Paul

I think the 6 156s to EMT is following the delivery of 172s to London Midland, as this will mean 150s are available to fill the gap left by 6 156s leaving at Northern.  The 6 156s are supposed to mean EMT will be able to use their entire set of 158s exclusively on Liverpool-Norwich services meaning that they're aren't supposed to be any unstrengthened services west of Nottingham.

Relating to 150/1 interiors there are two types.  All the Northern 150/1s have the North Western Trains refurbished interior 3+2 high back seats with a disabled toilet but no tables.  The London Midland 150/1s have the original interior, as do the Northern 150/2s that came from Arriva Trains Northern.

The thing of interest with the London Midland 150s are the 3 car sets.  There are two 150/0s that were built as 3 car and others that have been made up by adding a third car from a 150/2 to the middle of a 150/1.  Apparently some of the driving cars of the middle units of the latter are in a very bad condition, so it would make sense to keep them as 3 car.  However, it sounds like DfT have other ideas.

London Midland have 26 150s, so that would leave 15 for Northern, but as I pointed out in my previous post some of these include made up 3 car sets that could be returned to 2 car.  But obviously a 3 car 150 would be a straight swap for a 156 casacded to EMT in capacity terms, a 2 car 150 would be short of capacity.

It says a lot for the current state of rolling stock availability that there's such a scrap between TOC's for DMU's built 25 years ago!

If DfT hadn't cancelled the proposed 200 new diesel vehicles order for Northern, TPE and FGW because of new electrification plans then it wouldn't have been as bad, but I suppose DfT had to find places for the Thameslink outcasts (319s) to go.

 I just hope we don't have a hot summer.

Pathetic isn't it! To think that it has come to this, fighting over old BR rolling stock. Not what those who thought up rail privatisation had in mind I'm sure but thats what has happened.

East Midlands Trains now look to be getting 4 156s rather than the previous suggested 6: http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/EMTrains/AboutUs/News/_EastMidlandsTrainsconfirmsimprovementsforpassengersusingLiverpooltoNorwichroute_.htm

It also looks like East Coast want to swap the 180s on lease to Northern with the HSTs with Grand Central.  I imagine Grand Central will want the 180s refurbishing for reliability and removing the First Group purple before they hand their HSTs over and I imagine East Coast will want to remove the Grand Central branding from the HST interiors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GRAND_CENTRAL_B_Mark_3_TS_1_42401_Interior_1.JPG and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GRAND_CENTRAL_B_Mark_3_TS_1_42401_Interior_1.JPG )

Last thing I heard, the 150/1s are on their way down to Exeter this summer, then we will be waving bon voyage (or similar hand gesture) to the 142s.  143s will be likely to operate Western-BPW & Severn Beach.  Also there will be no 3-car 150s running, they will be 2-car sets.  Loco-hauled will be going at first opportunity too.

6 x 150/1 ex LOROL to be on FGW's books from late June. Will be subleased back to LOROL if the 172's are late on parade but will be moving West by late July / early August at the latest. At this point 7 x 142 return to Northern. By the timetable change in December 9 x 150/1 ex LM will transfer to FGW and replace 4 x ATW 150/2, 1 x SWT 158 & and all the assorted locomotive hauled nonsense. All these units will be refreshed and bought up to the standard of the FGW 150/2 and 150121/127 will be dealt with at the same time. I doubt this will be done before they enter traffic though.

Intermediate door controls?  ;)

I'm not convinved that GC are keen to release their 125s...just because EC want them. Though they have been sold to a leasing company, and are apparently about to go through serious refurb (does that mean re-engining?)
For many of their passengers they are seen as flagship...comfortable, big seats...real trains, which 180s are plainly not.
I think GC will be digging their heels in against EC's new timetable which has serously compromised GC's timings, so why would they play ball? All power to them, even though they are not ATOC. >:(

I understand the GC powercars will recieve the current HST variant of MTU 16V4000R41R engine. There is a time limit I believe as to when this can be done by in order to meet the EU emissions (Non Road) directives. However there is some debate as to whether the engines can be ordered and then stored for later fitment to the power cars. Nobody is 100% sure if the Tier III MTU 16V400R43 engine will actually fit in an HST powercar due to changes in the size / location of various ancillary parts and the orientation of the outlets of the twin turbochargers.

I must say that the 142's have served us well but I certainly won't miss them when they return to the great north!

They have indeed done us proud after 83C battered them into some sort of health. And fitted reasonably decent driving seats with decent armrests/ padding into them, ex 150/2. I don't mind working on them at all at the moment. And overall yes I have to admit some sceptisism when the idea was first mooted of having 142's on the Devon internals but overall I would say its been a successful way of keeping services going in Devon. Well done to all the depot staff involved.
 8)

However when the armrests on the driving seats are down and almost touching the control desk where it wraps itself round the driving seat you do feel a bit like Davros the chief Dalek sometimes!

Yes, and normal 'T' key DKS.

Some form of 'T' key operated lock on the door from the saloon to the vestibule behind the cab wouldn't be a bad idea either!
 ;D

Back in 2007, we used to have 150s on the Devon local services with 158s running on Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance.  We then ended up with the 150s moved to the Cornwall route and the Pacers on the local trains.  Is there any reason why we lost all the 158s down here?  Was it a case of First deciding that they didn't need the 158s for the franchise and so they could go off lease or was the change forced by the dft?

I think it was because  the class 158's got re-formed into 3 carriage sets for use on the cardiff - portsmouth harbour services?

The way I understood it was that the DfT dictated the '158s' go to the Northern and East Midlands franchise. All the former Wessex units left the FGW franchise, except 158745/746, with the FGW complement being made up with ex-Transpennine Express '158s'.

The difference was then made up with former Northern class 142s, which were used on local runs based out of Exeter. The Transpennine '158s' were then progressively transferred away from west of Taunton, as they were refreshed, and instead deployed on Cardiff/Portsmouth & Weymouth trains.

They were reformed mid way through the refresh programme into 3-cars, following the arrival of on-hire Class 150s from Arriva, and two class 150s from London Overground.

All this is correct as far as I'm aware!

what he said dft sent the ex wessex 8 series 158's to other tocs at end of contract with angel trains.
745 and 746 did indeed stay along with 747,748,749 and 751 the rest was made up by the ex TPE stock that came in part of the reason was also so all 158's are now leased from porterbrook.

The amount of rolling stock to be operated was largely determined by the DFT as the FGW franchise was very closely specified in terms of total vehicle numbers to be operated. As of December 2007 no less than 14 158's (158815-7/855/863-872) were sent away, not withstanding that it was clear to all by then they were still required for the FGW franchise in terms of seating accomodation and west fleet capacity. The sending away of 8 perfectly serviceable and functional 150/2 to Wales as of December 2006 really didnt help things either.

plus add on the 4 class 153 that went to eastleigh for storage abd eventually repaint in EMT colours

... SWT Unit to remain on sublease to FGW until May 2011, however,  to provide some cover for refurbs of incoming units ...

Which gives further credence to my thoughts that the ex LOROL / LM units will enter service in 'as is' condition and be released one at a time for refurbishment at LA.

Didn't Wessex Trains have 12x158s and FGW now have 16x158s, resulting in an increase in four units as well as getting the ones with the comfier seating type?

When the Northern franchise started West Yorkshire Metro kicked up a fuss because statistically some of the most overcrowded trains in the country were operating in the Leeds area.  The first thing Northern did was move all the First North Western 158s to Leeds from Manchester in exchange for smaller 150s being moved in the opposite direction.

Northern then looked at getting additional Sprinters and were allocated four 158s from Central Trains.  These were then subleased to FGW with the intention that they would be returned from FGW with additional units in the future.  Before this happened DfT changed the plans so that a couple of the FGW 158s would go to EMT and Northern would instead centre carriages from EMT.  They also decided that although 158s would go from FGW to Northern, Northern would have to sublease 8 158s to Scotrail as soon as that happened, where they've been ever since and look to be remaining there permanently.

Apparently some of the 142s released from Northern to FGW were for the purpose of filling in for overcrowding work and have since returned.  A change in operations has put these units back in to use.  The Manchester to Scotland service went from Virgin to TPE and TPE had to stop running a regular Manchester Airport to Windermere service to run the Scottish services, as they had to run the Scottish service with existing stock.  This left a gap in the busy Manchester-Preston corridor and Northern have since filled that gap by providing an additional service on that corridor.

The first Class 172 DMU for LO's Gospel Oak to Barking line arrived in the London area last night.

Progress towards the 150 cascade at last.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrajWVC8HKk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrajWVC8HKk)

Paul