Great Western Coffee Shop

Happens to me all the time.  Barclays now issue the new contactless cards which DO NOT WORK in the FGW chip and pin machines.  Some train managers know of the issue, some dont.

So now, when I'm upgrading etc, I point out, it wont work in the machine.  Most are ok and then swipe it.

Was trying to upgrade Swansea to Newport and pointed out it would work.  He asked me if there was another means of payment, I said yes, but they are also contactless cards which will decline the second I put my pin in.

He said I had to have another method of payment - I said - no my card is valid its just your machine.....its a known issue but you can swipe it or key in the number on the avantix machine - thats what most do.

He got quite stroppy and I said, look, my card is valid, key it or let me go upgrade free since I have been told that that is what the policy is (two TM's have told me this but I'm not going to stand by it as I have no proof).

Anyway, he said, I'm not supposed to key it and threw the card at me and said, have it for nothing in a not very nice tone.

This is just adding to my preconception that Swansea guards are ******** in general

"I'm not supposed to key it" is an interesting statement in itself. I'd imagine someone on here can speak with authority whether that's strictly true or not.

It is probably a little known fact, but in retailing, the method of payment offered has to be acceptable to the retailer.

If it is not, for whatever reason, then they do not have to sell you the item/service.

I know that - and my method of payment is valid - and acceptable to fgw otherwise they would not accept visa. However this is a KNOWN issue with the C&P machines used by FGW and there is a work around but this guard was unwilling to use it

In that case, FallenAngel, may I suggest you take the matter up with FGW formally: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/ContactUs.aspx  :-X

Before the days of onboard chip and pin most card swipes would go through automatically below a floor limit and so long the card hadn't been used fraudulently on a previous occasion. Over the floor limit authorisation should be sought which took time and was nigh on impossible on certain lines.
With chip and pin, if a chipped card is swiped it will automatically prompt for authorisation, I'm guessing the same for a chipped card number keyed in.
Nine times out of ten the guard will probably pop in 12345 or something as imaginative as the authorisation code to save numerous attempts to get authorisation by phone. Now depending on whether they've had declined transactions come back and bite them on the bum before will normally dictate on whether they'll put it through straight away.
I personally would ask for another form of payment, if that failed I would swipe and attempt to authorise the card and if I couldn't do that I would issue an unpaid fares notice for the excess fare that the passenger could pay with the card by telephone in the next 21 days (assuming it was a wholly XC journey).
I think the problem in this case was that the guard was unwilling to make a telephone authorisation. The avantix machine is only as good as the information it recieved the last time it was docked and may not be 100% up to date with things such as recently activated cards that a telephone authorisation would be.
The guard's attitude in my opinion stinks, a swipe would at least have confirmed whether the card was on a 'hot card' list or whether authorisation was required.

I cant as I got the journey upgrade free! 

So lets see - 1. I was upgrading on the train to get an unofficial YP discount on FC rather than upgrading at swansea station and 2. I ended up not paying at all.....

I can see how that one will work!

HOWEVER - this has occurred to me on the reading-crowthorne journey on two occasions (both with the same guard) where I was trying to buy a ticket full stop.  Note -  I dont have a season covering that journey since if I end up on a SWT service I go to Bracknell and SWT are not very understanding of a wokingham season excessing to bracknell at the barriers in bracknell.

So since I only do the jounry these days 3/4 times, with the discount, a season aint worth it so I buy on which ever train I happen to be on - funnily enough SWT are quite happy for my to buy RDG - Bracknell when I explain I would have been on the ealier delayed/cancelled FGW service to crowthorne but it didnt show so I jumped on here instead - but excess a wokingham season - god help you

Some things to mention

1.  Once a card has come up declined it cannot be swiped.  The system knows it has declined so will refuse to accept it as a swipe.
2. A swiped card has no connection to a hot list.  That only applies if a card is used in chip and pin mode.
3. Once a card has been declined that is it.  A telephone authorisation is not an option as far as the system if concerned the card is declined.  If the custoimer is not happy they need to contact their bank.
4 You can manually enter the number and it will then go through.  But what would happen if a card was declined and then the guard did that and subsequently the payment was rejected.  I suggest they would not be in the employment of FGW for much longer.

Having said that I do agree with FA that there seems to be a problem with the Barclays Pay wave chip and pin cards.  There is either a problem with the Advantix or a problem with the cards and the way they have been set up.  Really FA should complain to Barclays to see if they can track down the cause of the problem.

With regard to (1),(2) and (3) I have had numerous occasions when the C&P has been declined and then the TM keys it into the avantix and hey presto, I get a ticket.

It is NOT a barclays problem - to deal with the pay wave C&P the terminals need a firm ware update - most retailers have done it by now.  When I first got the cards, it was only the big stores they work in however now the only place they don't work is on trains.    All FGW needs to do is update the blinking firmware on the terminals - barclays have started it but as more banks issue pay wave cards its going to be a bigger and bigger problem

It's not just the barclays ones that are declined all the time, Lloyds TSB debit cards are the same, if the fare is relatively small (under say ^30) then i'll just key in the number but if it's over that amount i'll ring up and get the card authorised, in this case the bank will give the retailler an authorisation code , the card can then be keyed in and the correct authorisation code put in.

But, you should buy your upgrade before getting on the train or you could be liable for the full First open single, as for the unofficial Y-P discount on Avantix, this will be removed in June thanks to post's on this forum pointing out the error!

Perhaps the only respect in which the US is ahead of the UK as far as banking goes is "paywave" cards - both my debit cards have this facility, although the chip is internal rather than external.

The "pin" facility is a bit of a farce here though - they'll always ask "credit or debit?". Debit requires a pin but is invariably declined when you're using "paywave", credit goes through without so much as a signature below $25. It's weird.

As for the correction - fine - but if there is a loophole don't expect me not to use it!

When I first started getting them, I didnt realise YP was not valid on FC so it was an innocent thing - and maybe when the loop hole is removed, I may start buying my tickets at the ticket office thereby removing the pay wave issue as well :-)

Until then .....

Remember - 99% of my FC journeys are on a season anyway - ad hoc journeys are usually Arriva or LM where I don't bother or of a weekend where I do weekend first. Or XC where I book advance anyway because I know there is a reason I have to go to brum.

The only time I seriously saved anything significant on FC tickets was in the blockade because I was only doing two journeys a week - but then I was paying for two hotels so I actually lost out.

However - a bigger loophole to close is ticket checks on the cotswolds line.  I have only been in the office 9 days since 1 Jan but given the number of ticket checks...............and the timing of those trips...I could have gotten away with only 2 return tickets.  The ATEs on the way up never grip the tickets if they are in the holder and I've not had a single ticket check on the down journey.  I have a whole bunch of tickets which, had I not been able to work from home and I don't believe in not paying, I could have reused with the five day validity on the out and 30 day on the return.

Ticket barriers?  Hell no, stick them in a wallet and flash them at the guy manning it - about 1/10 actually insist on taking it out of the wallet and ripping the mag strip.

I actually applaud the removal of the grey areas - I don't have to force myself onto the 530 to be able to get my ticket of a guard rather than risk the herefords that have ATE's on it and the one nazi who called me a criminal!  I just hope no staff got into trouble because of it - he went through every ticket in my wallet with a YP discount and noted some numbers from it!

Yes - saving 30 quid is worth me getting up an hour earlier - but from June - I'll just get the later train every time.

as far as the chip and pin machines go I understand that FGW has new machines on order which will hopefully sort the problem soon. It's not just Barclays and LLoyds cards that will be declined and it seems almost that any card issued since about September last year will have a problem. I've given up using chip and pin for small fares with a recently issued card despite the company putting pressure on us not to swipe or manually enter card details.

Rumour is, new chip & pin in April... apparently January 2011 is the date that ALL cards must be processed by chip & pin or chip & sig, or payments will not be authorised.

I've also heard that there is some code with regards to chip cards, and cards issued pre-September have 6 digits, but they've run out of them and are now issuing 9 digit cards which the chip & pin will always decline.

I've always wandered what would happen in the event of the card being refused. I often fill up with Petrol with no cash on me, instead putting it on the Debit Card. Would they hold me ransom if the card was refused  :P

Issue you with an Unpaid Fuel Notice  ;)

They actually do, normally take your details off your driving license and give you 7 days to pay before they send the boys round  :)

Probably an unfair statement to make since I have yet to encounter a Swansea based member of staff who is not friendly, approachable and helpful. Sometimes it works both ways when it comes to be speaking to staff and if oyu are politie they are polite in return. Just my two cents worth

Perhaps, counting those missing characters, she actually meant, they are 'Welshmen' in general ... I wouldn't bet on that, though.  ::) :-X

I'm sure FA would have said Welshpersons, so it must have been something else.... ;D

To raise this again.........on sunday, my card worked in a swansea guards C&P machine.  Today on a gatwick service, it did not.

I then- when reluctantly handing over my amex because I don't like using it for day to day and I KNOW my card works when keyed in (which he refused to do for 3.85 when the guy this morning on the worcester to reading did it for 28.70 and I showed him the receipt!) to the avantix, got a lecture about if I know my cards don't work, I should get cash out first.

Right, so its my problem FGW machines are not fit for purpose.

Whilst waiting for change this morning at Bomo booking office the guy in front of me asked the clerk to use the slidy chip and pin in the side of his computer screen, rather than the customer operated terminal on the counter. They seemed to be linked as he entered his pin on the counter terminal. Seemingly the card will work in the one, but not the other!
So it seems SWT also have problems with some type of cards in some of their machines, but not others!

My HBOS card always works as payment on the train and touch wood i've never had an issue with it. ;D

However my Alliance & Leicester card works as payment at both old & new TVM's and also at the Ticket Office with FGW... But when trying to pay a ^13.05 rail fare on a SWT service to BRI it did not play ball...  ??? Handed over my HBOS card and it worked straight away... ::)

A little odd...!