Great Western Coffee Shop

Making a day trip to London tomorrow and instead of my usual money saving route via Salisbury, I'm going quick way splitting at Didcot.

Now the problem I've discovered is Journey Planners show the DID-PAD Off Peak Day return (CDR) and One Day Travelcard (ODT) as not being valid for return from PAD on 'fast' services during the evening peak. Yet NFM 05 says return is permitted on any train, for these ticket types.

Which is right? And should I board a 'fast' at PAD armed with a print out of the NFM 05 entries and hope for a flummoxed TM?

No, the NFM is wrong.....HSTs have been banned to those tickets for ages.

You can use the semi-fast Oxfords, if they stop at Didcot, but that's it. You're on a turbo otherwise.

Looked right back through to NFM 02. And all show the same. If it's wrong, why has it been wrong for so long?

A ticket office clerk consulting the NFM would tell me what, if I asked for an explanation of restriction code P7?

Enquiries are already in hand.....

How can the NFM be wrong?  I thought that the NFM was the authorative source of information (it is therfore right by definition is it not?).  If other information contradicts then that other information must be wrong. 

That's the way I see it - but let's get admission of the fact. Otherwise you get a ton of unnecessary hassle.....

However, I've just picked up that you're travelling tomorrow, bignosemac, and I'm not sure I'll get you a response by then....

Good Luck, you may need it. Just insist on the train manager fetching his copy of the NFM and take him through it, if necessary.

Further,. I thought the NFM was what was loaded into the (NRE) journeyplanner - so they ought to be aligned anyway?....

Well I'm tempted to take a 'stopper' to Didcot, then change, just for an easy life. However I would prefer to get a direct train to Temple Meads (calling at DID, as it's my split point).

Not sure insisting the TM fetches his copy of NFM will work. Don't think paper copies are issued any more. But I'm hopeful that the restriction information in Avantix machines tallies with NFM 05 and not online journey planners. May check on my outbound journey if one of the many friendly Conductors I know are working the SVB line.

The reason I suggested requesting the TM to check the NFM is that it is hammered into TMs that CDRs & ODTs are NOT valid on peak HSTs - so they need to have that challenged.....

According to a set of restrictions I have been given taken from the Online Staff fares manual:

Validity
Code

P7
   

Restriction Applies:
   

Monday to Friday only.

No travel restrictions on other days.

Outward Travel
   
By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000.

Return Travel   

By any train.

Thanks d_m I was gonna ask someone out there with access to see what FRPP said. If 'The official source of retail information for the rail industry' says that for code P7 then I should be OK.

Could be up for some fun and games........although I suspect I'm unlikely to even be ticket checked before DID on a peak HST to the west.

Would make a very interesting court case.

But if FGW say their P7 restriction is peak fast trains aren't they trying it on? A little bit underhand perhaps?

I would assume that the restriction on the ticket would either be "As Advertised" or "See Restrictions".  If you bought it at the station or on the train, I think (in my opinion) it would be difficult for FGW to argue that it isn't valid unless you were given a restriction card that explained you couldn't use it on HSTs.

I'm still not sure whether it is valid, I know there are blanket bans on services out of Paddington & Reading in the evening peak, however i'm struggling to find it on the FGW website.

Perhaps FGW should have this little snipit found on Wikepedia regarding the fraud act.

^"Fraud by false representation" is defined by Section 2 of the Act as a case where a person makes "any representation as to fact or law ... express or implied" which they know to be untrue or misleading.

Plus in case they argue that's what they've been told.

Section 12 of the Act provides that where an offence against the Act was committed by a body corporate, but was carried out with the "consent or connivance" of any director, manager, secretary or officer of the body - or any person purporting to be such - then that person, as well as the body itself, is liable.

An important difference between this and the Theft Act is that the Fraud Act offences do not require there to have been a victim, as was the case with the Theft Act.

But it still doesn't answer why it's not in NFM 5.

 

Just got somebody to do some more digging. It would appear ChrisB was correct and there is a blanket ban on off peak tickets on a whole host of trains from Paddington - west of Reading in PM Peak.

Yet the validity code says otherwise. Another case of anomalies in the system. However this one can result in some punitive action (full anytime single) being applied by a TM or RPI.

Must be careful, as the last time I challenged FGW policy with on board staff, I was ejected at Reading. Calling FGW (not an individual staff member) 'muppets' was taken as being threatening and abusive. So being awkward and producing screencaps of NFM 05 must be done with a smile......not a smug grin.

Indeed there is - and they DO appear in the NFM05 - as a list at the front of the section that contains restriction P7 and a host of other codes....I'm awaiting a screenshot which I'll try and attach to a subsequent post in this thread once I receive it.

I made the point that this NFM ought to be in the public domain & my FGW contyasct agrees with me.....

Hopefully, the screenshot is attached.....I am informed that the list of restrictions that follows are....

Am I the only one getting lost in all those codes?

One of our customers, several years back got an off peak return from Peterbrough to Melksham that took him (in those days) on the 17:30 from Paddington - and it was valid in spite of all the dire warnings on the departure boards at Paddington about "Off peak not being valid on this train", etc. In view of this thread, and that fact that our London clients often travel out on the 17:45 and return a few days later on the 19:47 from Melksham, I thought I would check this out via the FGW ticket site so that I'm well placed on current rules to give them a good priced and valid option without getting involved in split tickets:

1. Single, Paddington to Melksham on the 17:45 - 66.50.  Returning on the 19:47 - 26.00 - total price 92.50

2. Anytime return (only option offered for 17:45 departure from Paddington) - 133.00

3. Super off peak return, Peterborough to Melksham - 79.20.   Offered to me for travel on the 16:02 from Peterborough, connecting into the 17:45 from Paddington, returning on the 19:47

Is option 3. valid, or a web site error?   In a previous iteration before the rules were last changed, this enquiry resulted in inconclusive results, with some people saying "valid" and others "invalid".    As a side question, option 3. also includes the tube from King's Cross to Paddington in the package.  Is that JUST from King's Cross, or could it be used somewhat wider - e.g. from Oxford Circus to Paddington to connect with the 17:45?

It is a complete mine field. The 3rd option will be valid, as it starts outside London where in general peak time restrictions don't exist. In general, the journey planners are correct. Bignosemac is technically travelling invalidly assuming he has used said ticket combinations, but thats his own risk!

Peterborough - Melksham may be a fare set by East Coast, rather than FGW, and therefore it would be East Coast that set the restriction code. I can check.

I'm making further enquiries....

The inclusive tube will only work tube barriers at Kings Cross & Paddington, nowhere else, I believe.

The mag stripe coding isn't clever enough to do that. The cross London marker just allows you a single entry (at any one of the cross London transfer stations - there are about 40 of them I've listed below although that list is a couple of years old now) and one subsequent exit at any one of the same list.  It would be too difficult, in the general case, to cover all the valid routing options.


Paul

OK, it's slightly more complicated than that! :o :o
All fares are indeed set by East Coast.
However -
If you orginate your journey at Melksham, FGW set the restriction (5A) and if originated at Peterborough it's set by East Coast (restriction 9U)

For completeness, if you originate in Melksham....

The Super Off-Peak Single fare is ^78.20 and Return ^79.20 in eiother direction.

Hope that all makes sense.... ;D

Further, ALL off-peak & Super off-peak DAY RETURNS are barred from those evening peak HSTs listed above in the attachment, whereas some PERIOD RETURNS, like these Perterborough-Melksham fares, are permitted.

Presumably it is "advertised" on the electronic departure baords at Paddington.

yup.....

Bignosemac bottled it and got the 1622 from PAD and changed at DID. Would've liked an extra hour or so in that London, but didn't feel up for a debate with a TM and the risk of an excess or UFN.

I had an interesting three way conversation about the anomaly with the DSM at PAD who was on the phone to someone high up in the fares dept at Swindon. The upshot was that I was advised not to travel during the peak as neither the DSM or the fares dept would give the authority. This despite them both admitting that the publically available information (NFM 05 CD-Rom and requesting a booking clerk check the restriction) was ambiguous at best (downright misleading in my opinion).

I pointed out that whilst FGW staff may be aware of the peak restrictions and advise accordingly, another TOCs booking clerk would only see the information on their system against restriction P7 and pass on to the customer that it was alright to return to DID on any evening train with a CDR or ODT. A seperate list of excluded trains, which is not referenced in the public NFM at all and is not immediately apparent to a ticket office clerk checking P7 is not good enough, even more so when the list makes no destinction between Off-Peak tickets and Travelcards which actually have different time restrictions. Off Peak 1600-1915. Travelcard 1640-1915.

I was furthur told that the error was ATOC's fault as they publish the FRPP and NFM.  :o What a load of horlicks! Who sets the fares for this route? Who signed off on the restriction codes on 31/12/09? Who decides the Off-Peak timings? I'll tell you who - the shysters* in FGW's fares dept.

Remember all TOC's priorities. 1st - Franchise Payments. 2nd - Shareholders. 3rd - Performance Targets. 4th - Industrial relations. And a lowly 5th - The Passengers.

I remember what brought me to this forum. Being overcharged on the SVB line - that was an error in FGW's favour that took 10 weeks to fix. I bet the 'P7' anomaly will be sorted a darn sight quicker by the fares shysters*; can't have the passengers saving a few bob at FGW's expense. That just won't do.

*Tame version of the names I'm calling them in my head.

(EDIT: Just for completeness sake I should add that I actually travelled back from PAD-DID-BRI on a single journey split. A late change of plans meant I took a bash to London on a very convoluted route, so I actually travelled PAD-DID on a CDS with validity code J9. This code is just as bad as P7, no mention of far west HST restrictions in the peak either)

FRPP (Now known as "The Manual") has bits assigned to TOC's to keep updated, so it's very difficult to blame ATOC for the issue with restriction codes. See attached screenshot.

And on posters around Paddington....

That "someone" is my contact in FGW that gave the quote(s) above....!! ;D

He goes on to say (with permission to post this)

I accept that it would be useful to display the table of barred trains under each restriction code to which it applies, and as I said to the DSM on the phone yesterday, I will seek to do this as time permits. Traditionally such information has been contained at the beginning of each appropriate section of the NFM, owing to space constraints in the printed manuals. This would remove the need to refer the user to the beginning of the section and would be beneficial to sales staff. That said, however, the table does clearly state that tickets (meaning all Off-Peak Day and Travelcards) are not valid on the listed services.

Whilst the Avantix CD-ROM does provide a snapshot of most of the national fares at a point in
time, it is not perfect and does not necessarily provide full information regarding restrictions or indeed 100% accurate or complete fares data.  It is certainly not a legally binding 'document' but a slightly imperfect method of viewing the national fares database and associated files. Hence, it should be considered as a guide - which was as much as a paper National Fares Manual ever was, as almost every edition would have numerous amendments made (often unpublished), and occasionally supplements produced, before it went live.

I would have hoped that the table of barred trains does appear in the CD-ROM; TOCs are not asked to produce anything different for the public version, nor are we invited to comment on it before publication. As such, we would either expect it to be accurate, or carry a disclaimer. The responsibility for providing such clarification lies with the CD-ROM's producer, ATOC.
 
The CIS screens and posters at Paddington provide departure information for customers, train by
train. This information is provided by FGW and categorically states which tickets are valid on which services. Peak restrictions are in force in order to manage crowding and protect revenue, so if a customer wishes to travel at peak times, they must pay the appropriate fare. Your correspondent has now made an enquiry, and been given the correct advice and information (at Paddington yesterday), so I would not expect him to attempt to travel on an Off-Peak ticket on a barred train. I trust that FGW's position is clear.

I suspect correspondence to occur between FGW and ATOC on this subject.... ;)

Can't help but find myself wondering what Barry Doe would make of all this... I reckon there's a Rail column in it somewhere...!

Not really - the only problem remaining being the 'missing' exclusion section on the Adventix CDRom.
The staff NFM and public Jorney Planners agree that Off-peak Day tickets are banned on peak HSTs.

I bet there is a disclaimer that comes with or on the CDRom stating that it isn't a definitive document and that fares / trestrictions need to be checked before purchasing tickets?....

Who is going to cut this Gordian knot.

At least you know with Ryanair that they are going to add lots of surcharges but they are probably still cheaper than other airlines, but you can still get a direct comparison of the total price . As far as I know you are still probably guarenteed a seat (if you pay the surcharge!) although not necessarily on the flight or day you want. I've not heard of any planes taking off full and standing.

It seems with rail fares even the ticket seller (be it a human being or a website)  doesn't know if they've sold you right ticket at the right price for the journey you want to make. Plus at the end of the day however much you pay unless you can reserve a seat (and then not 100%) you aren't guarenteed a seat.

Rip off Britain.

Hmmm - who knows whether you've paid the 'right' price when you book with Ryanair - they don't publish their fares anywhere - indeed, they can go up & down several times a day....!!

The TOCs try & assist customers in understanding the fare structure & it xcauses more problems. Maybe they should do what Ryanair does?....there doesn't seem to be the many column inches complaining about their method of selling you a ticket.

Oh - AND Ryanair carried out a consultation late last year asking whether you would be willing to stand on their aircraft if you got a cheaper price than a seat! Seriously!

But that's the price of having a flexible, "walk up" train system and by my reckoning it's one worth paying. What would you rather...? Turn up at the booking office, buy a ticket and stand on the train you want to catch, or turn up at the booking office to be told that they can't sell you a ticket because there are no seats on any trains for the next three hours? That's the model used in the US, where virtually all Amtrak intercity trains are fully reserved (they don't allocate you a specific seat, but you are guaranteed one) and it's a massive pain in the backside - you need to reserve ages ahead of time, and the charges if you pitch up at the station and buy on the day are larcenous. I was quoted $70 (more or less GBP45) for a half-hour journey of about 40 miles a few months ago, and this was in the middle of the day on a weekend. Trust me, you don't want the "guaranteed seat" thing applied on FGW or any other of the UK TOCs: sounds like a nice, equitable idea but the practicalities mean the current system is way better.

Airlines are an entirely different kettle of fish - safety rules there require (for obvious reasons) that everyone must have a seat and be belted into it for takeoff, landing and at other times as the captain deems appropriate. Although Ryanair did say they were in discussions with Boeing regarding the design of some kind of restraint that would allow standing passengers on their flights, I suspect like many other things (the infamous toilet charge and the suggestion that one day their flights would be completely free and pay their way by acting as mobile casinos, for example) it's just a publicity stunt. Apart from anything else, have you ever tried standing up underneath the luggage bins in a 737?!

(Forwarded quote from someone high up in FGW fares dept.)


The someone high up is indeed right. The publically available NFM CD-Rom does have a disclaimer, about the information contained within, on the TSO website from where you can purchase it. I'm assuming that the CD is supplied with these terms and conditions. My copy of NFM 05 was garnered from another source for free. I believe it should be legitimately available for free; so have no moral dilemma in not paying for it - but that's another topic.

"3. Limitation of Liability and Indemnity
3.1. The Data is made available to the Licensee on an "as is" basis and the Licensor makes no representations or gives no warranties in relation to the Data, including but not limited to accuracy, the satisfactory quality for purpose, merchantability or any other matter associated with the Data. The Licensor expressly excludes any and all implied and statutory warranties and terms to the maximum extent permitted by law.

3.3. The Licensor's liability to the Licensee under this Licence shall be limited to the sum of the Licence Fee....."

So the best you can hope for if caught out by an anomaly is a refund of the purchase cost of the CD-Rom. That's if you purchased it in the first place. :D

By way of a footnote to the issue of information about peak restrictions, there is now a leaflet available at staffed stations on the Cotswold Line explaining ticket validity into London in the morning peak and back in the afternoon.

I say explaining, because of course they come up against the nonsense of the 'simplified' ticket names, with off-peak, off-peak day and off-peak travelcard bandied around, without any attempt to point out the differences between off-peak tickets and the other sorts of off-peak tickets.

And as for why an off-peak ticket might be valid at 7.25am, the leaflet, wisely, just doesn't go there.

Still, at least they've tried, though I'm not sure it's entirely necessary, because the ticket office staff and train crews are, in my experience, always ready with their series of quick questions to ensure people get the ticket they need, at the lowest possible fare.