Title: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: plymothian on January 14, 2010, 07:42:41 I could work for the Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242625/Soldiers-returning-Afghanistan-threatened-arrest-ticket-inspector-invalid-warrants.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/active/6967631/Guard-threatened-to-throw-returning-soldiers-off-train.html Though what does not sit true is the comments about the driver offering them a ride in the cab :o Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: old original on January 14, 2010, 09:13:00 Funny old world....
Soldiers doing their job......"Heroes" Guard doing his job..........."Jobsworth" ??? ??? ??? Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: ChrisB on January 14, 2010, 10:18:25 Quite - I thought that too....
Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Tim on January 14, 2010, 10:26:12 Why didn't the guard just take the solidier's details and the TOC send him a penalty notice (or whatever it is called) in the post which he could then have forwarded to the MoD. Wouldn't that have been better then threateneing to throw him off or relying on a member of public to pay his fare?
Looks like the blame lies squarely with the MoD, but perhaps the Guard could have handled it better (although on the otherside, we have absolutely no idea what attitude the soldier adopted to the Guard) Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: moonrakerz on January 14, 2010, 10:27:38 If the Officer (a Captain) travelling with them couldn't sort it out, I don't think I would have much confidence in him if he was leading my patrol in Helmand !!
Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Phil on January 14, 2010, 11:06:05 Looks like the blame lies squarely with the MoD, but perhaps the Guard could have handled it better (although on the otherside, we have absolutely no idea what attitude the soldier adopted to the Guard) Sorry, but how do you make out "the blame lies squarely with the MOD"? According to the feature, "They had been due to arrive on a flight from Corfu at RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire, so the warrants for their train travel were made out from Oxford station. But their flight was diverted to East Midlands Airport because of bad weather." The MOD weren't to know the flights were to be re-routed. Had they issued the soldiers with flexible tickets valid on all UK rail routes just in case, the Daily Fail and indeed the entire nation's media would have soon been on their backs for wasting taxpayers money. Questions would have been asked in the house. Taxpayers would have whinged on internet blogs. Oh... wait... taxpayers are whinging anyway. *sigh* To be fair, the soldiers should have known that the rail warrants they had been issued with were not valid on that particular route, and should NOT have boarded the train knowing they didn't have tickets or, presumably, the means to pay. What they should have done is what the Captain with them presumably did, which was to approach a ticket office and explain the situation before boarding the train and either (a) exchanged their warrants for tickets which were valid for that particular route, which is unlikely to have been possible (but it's always worth asking, as there may have been off-peak singles available at the same cost for the new route as for a peak-time single on their original route, for example) or (b) bought tickets individually and claimed the cost back from the MOD afterwards. Which is exactly what is supposed to happen, as the MOD spokesperson says. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Brucey on January 14, 2010, 12:03:54 Surely it doesn't make any difference whether someone is a soldier or not? They should still ensure they have a valid ticket for the journey they are making.
If they boarded at a station or two down the line, they could be forgiven. But this is a completely different route, on a completely different TOC's trains with a completely different fare. EMT have only refunded the money here as they don't want to look bad. This "jobsworth" was just doing his job and enforcing the law, which also happens to apply to soldiers. Having a Captain with them, surely he could have stepped in before they boarded the train and arrange with the TOC for payment to be made by the MOD. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Tim on January 14, 2010, 13:13:41 Sorry, but how do you make out "the blame lies squarely with the MOD"? Because after landing at the airport, the MOD presumably directed them to the station and told them to get a train into London. The MOD should have known that the warants they had issued were invalid and done something about it (issued new warrants or called the TOC to explain or given them cash for new tickets, something). Yes the soliders like anyone else are responsible for having the right ticket before boarding but if I dropped my son off at the station, gave him an invalid ticket and told him to catch teh neext train, would I not bear some responsibility - perhaps not legally, but morally? Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Tim on January 14, 2010, 13:16:11 Sorry, but how do you make out "the blame lies squarely with the MOD"? Because after landing at the airport, the MOD presumably directed them to the station and told them to get a train into London. The MOD should have known that the warants they had issued were invalid and done something about it (issued new warrants or called the TOC to explain or given them cash for new tickets, something). Yes the soliders like anyone else are responsible for having the right ticket before boarding but if I dropped my son off at the station, gave him an invalid ticket and told him to catch the next train, would I not bear some responsibility - perhaps not legally, but morally? The MOD is was responsible for transporting this serviceman. they sub-contracted to the railway, but the responsiblity was still theirs. Still don't understand why details could not have been taken and it sorted out later? Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: devon_metro on January 14, 2010, 14:00:12 Funny old world.... Soldiers doing their job......"Heroes" Guard doing his job..........."Jobsworth" ??? ??? ??? I was under the impression that Guards were to exercise discretion, this clearly not the case here. It wouldn't have been difficult to issue an un paid fare notice and the matter dealt with further by the MOD. Certainly threatening to throw them off the train is wrong. However, at the same time i'm sure the Daily Mail has obscured the truth, there is the possibility that they refused to pay the full open single in which case there is every possibility being removed from the train was the correct choice. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: readytostart on January 14, 2010, 14:09:40 If your holiday flight is diverted due to poor weather you expect your carrier to provide transportation back to your original airport, if it is more convenient for you to get home from where you are, then it is at your own expense.
The MOD should have arranged for these guys to get to oxford station, or to a more convenient point from which their tickets would be valid, if they weren't to be supplied with new warrants. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Btline on January 14, 2010, 14:33:27 if it is more convenient for you to get home from where you are, then it is at your own expense. Surely that'd be rare, not many people can magic their car from one airport car park to another! :o Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: old original on January 14, 2010, 15:00:46 Done some research....
Perhaps ATOC should remind the MOD that they don't have to write an originating point on the warrant just a Air Flight number. Then it doesn't matter which airfield they land at. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Tim on January 14, 2010, 15:44:31 Could there be an element of staff only seeing MOD warrents on certain routes? maybe the EMT guard had not seen one before and formed the opinion that there was something fishy about it (a deliberate attempt to aviod a fare) rather than a genuine mistake more properly dealt with in the circumstances by an unpaid fare notice.
I assume that an unpaid fare notice doesn't earn any commission whereas selling ^150 of new fares is worth about ^14 to the Guard? Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Ollie on January 14, 2010, 17:22:30 The problem with the warrant is as pointed out, whoever takes the warrant, can only issue a ticket for what is put on it. Otherwise whichever company that issued the warrant (this case the MOD) can turn round and say, no that isn't what the warrant was for, and refuse payment.
It's as others have stated, if it wasn't for the fact these people were soldiers nobody would kick up a fuss about the fact they were told buy tickets or get off. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: RailCornwall on January 14, 2010, 17:27:53 Simple way to solve this would be to give serving service personnel on duty or on the way to duty free travel as happens in other countries. I'll leave the bean counters work out who should pay, if anyone.
Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Super Guard on January 15, 2010, 01:02:47 Could there be an element of staff only seeing MOD warrents on certain routes? maybe the EMT guard had not seen one before and formed the opinion that there was something fishy about it (a deliberate attempt to aviod a fare) rather than a genuine mistake more properly dealt with in the circumstances by an unpaid fare notice. I assume that an unpaid fare notice doesn't earn any commission whereas selling ^150 of new fares is worth about ^14 to the Guard? UFN do not earn commision... but ^150 certainly does not earn a Guard ^14! Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Tim on January 15, 2010, 09:07:32 Could there be an element of staff only seeing MOD warrents on certain routes? maybe the EMT guard had not seen one before and formed the opinion that there was something fishy about it (a deliberate attempt to aviod a fare) rather than a genuine mistake more properly dealt with in the circumstances by an unpaid fare notice. I assume that an unpaid fare notice doesn't earn any commission whereas selling ^150 of new fares is worth about ^14 to the Guard? UFN do not earn commision... but ^150 certainly does not earn a Guard ^14! My mistake. I got ^14 from approx 9% of ^150 which I thought was the commission rate. (I now realise that that is the percentage that the TOC gets before the rest is divied up by ORCATS). What kind of commision do guards get? Are you all on the same rate? Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: moonrakerz on January 15, 2010, 09:40:41 Could there be an element of staff only seeing MOD warrents on certain routes? maybe the EMT guard had not seen one before and formed the opinion that there was something fishy about it (a deliberate attempt to aviod a fare) rather than a genuine mistake more properly dealt with in the circumstances by an unpaid fare notice. Could well be: I travelled to Germany about 5/6 years ago with an RN Captain, I was amazed at the chaos caused at Gatwick when he produced his NATO Travel Order ! Eventually BA did find someone who said it was a legal document. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: readytostart on January 15, 2010, 18:03:24 if it is more convenient for you to get home from where you are, then it is at your own expense. Surely that'd be rare, not many people can magic their car from one airport car park to another! :o Well I was asuming that at least some people use a train to get to the airport! Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Btline on January 15, 2010, 18:14:01 Why? There is NO way I'd get the train to the airport!
Even if Chiltern served an airport, I would not risk it lest a tree fell on the line, or vandals "zapped" a signal box. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Henry on January 15, 2010, 18:33:26 Trying to take an impartial view, as I believe the press (perhaps) in some cases exploit what may have been a minor incident. However, I believe East Midlands are a Stagecoach company. I have seen some similar problems with another stagecoach company not too far from us. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: devon_metro on January 15, 2010, 19:01:27 Why? There is NO way I'd get the train to the airport! Even if Chiltern served an airport, I would not risk it lest a tree fell on the line, or vandals "zapped" a signal box. Do you teleport to the airport then? A motorway accident can spell the end to a holiday... Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Btline on January 15, 2010, 19:15:22 Do you teleport to the airport then? A motorway accident can spell the end to a holiday... I fail to see your point. ANY accident (car or rail) is a lot less likely than the trains getting screwed up. And don't forget that the plane could crash, the bus from the plane to the terminal at the foreign airport could blow up etc..... Nothings going to change, if I drive, there is a v high chance I'll get to the airport on time. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: vacman on January 15, 2010, 19:21:19 The main point that has been missed is that the warrants should have been exchanged BEFORE boarding the train! I'm not sure if EMT guards get commission but west guards on FGW are entitled to commission on each Unpaid fare noticed issued.
Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: paul7575 on January 15, 2010, 20:34:55 The warrants couldn't be exchanged before boarding, it was long past the ticket office normal closing time.
Paul Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: paul7575 on January 15, 2010, 20:42:34 Simple way to solve this would be to give serving service personnel on duty or on the way to duty free travel as happens in other countries. I'll leave the bean counters work out who should pay, if anyone. Totally unworkable. If you are suggesting free travel on presentation of some sort of offiicial ID, how does the railway differentiate between duty travel, and weekend travel, or daily travel to work? Service personnel do get free travel when travelling to new assignments, or duty deployments. If the mode of transport is a train, it's done with a rail warrant, which is where we came in. They had a warrant, but it would have been addressed to Swindon or Oxford as origin, (depending where the RAF bus normally takes incoming personnel). And IIRC the small print on an MOD warrant makes it pretty clear it isn't transferable, alterable, valid on different routes etc etc. But they can be exchanged on a train when tickets are otherwise available onboard. Paul Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Mookiemoo on January 15, 2010, 21:50:31 As much as i'm not into the whole gung ho patriotism of the forces and quite frankly would become a rememberence protester if I happened to live in Wooton Basset I do think maybe just maybe the forces should get free travel on buses and trains.
After all, they are mentally disabled enough to risk their lived for either (1) the adrenaline rush of battle (2) some sort of bizarre belief the war is anything other than oil control (3) they are actually loyal to the gubbermint. But really, the way we treat our troops is a bit harsh compared to some countries - it really wouldnt be that much of a dip in the profits to just let em travel for free. But note: I would never want to go the way of the US! I was chastized last year. My flight to Miami had some service personal in combats on. By the time the captain had finished announcing their presence and wanted everyone to wish them godspeed, all I could do was mutter "for gods sake pass me the sick bucket". The person next to me was not impressed. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: TerminalJunkie on January 15, 2010, 23:27:04 Do you teleport to the airport then? A motorway accident can spell the end to a holiday... I fail to see your point. A bit thick, are you? :P http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/news/spent-163-300-just-use-toilets-Bristol-Airport/article-1514402-detail/article.html (http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/news/spent-163-300-just-use-toilets-Bristol-Airport/article-1514402-detail/article.html) Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Super Guard on January 16, 2010, 01:45:59 The main point that has been missed is that the warrants should have been exchanged BEFORE boarding the train! I'm not sure if EMT guards get commission but west guards on FGW are entitled to commission on each Unpaid fare noticed issued. That's probably why I haven't been issued with one then ;D Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: JayMac on January 16, 2010, 01:58:29 As much as i'm not into the whole gung ho patriotism of the forces and quite frankly would become a rememberence protester if I happened to live in Wooton Basset I do think maybe just maybe the forces should get free travel on buses and trains. After all, they are mentally disabled enough to risk their lived for either (1) the adrenaline rush of battle (2) some sort of bizarre belief the war is anything other than oil control (3) they are actually loyal to the gubbermint. But really, the way we treat our troops is a bit harsh compared to some countries - it really wouldnt be that much of a dip in the profits to just let em travel for free. But note: I would never want to go the way of the US! I was chastized last year. My flight to Miami had some service personal in combats on. By the time the captain had finished announcing their presence and wanted everyone to wish them godspeed, all I could do was mutter "for gods sake pass me the sick bucket". The person next to me was not impressed. Despite the two missing t's in Wootton Bassett, FA, I concur wholeheartedly with the sentiments in your post. Bignosemac, a fellow Conchie. I'll wear my white feather with pride. Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: super tm on January 16, 2010, 10:08:43 The main point that has been missed is that the warrants should have been exchanged BEFORE boarding the train! I'm not sure if EMT guards get commission but west guards on FGW are entitled to commission on each Unpaid fare noticed issued. That's probably why I haven't been issued with one then ;D Warrants dont have to be exchanged before boarding the train if the ticket office is closed. The guards advantix ticket machine can issue tickets with warrants quite easily. Reminds me of a trip some years ago on the Exmouth line. The guard was coming through the train checking tickets and we had them out ready. Just before he got to us we stopped at Lympstone Commando and about 15 squaddies got on. When we left guard comes out and gathers up 15 warrants and I said to my mum 'You can put away your ticket now he has more important things to do.' The guard dissappeared not so be seen again until before Exeter Central when he dished out the tickets. I did notice he had a large grin on his face ;D Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Super Guard on January 16, 2010, 11:54:35 It doesn't happen so much anymore as most of them exchange their warrants before they get on the train, although I had a decent 'haul' of squaddies paying on card/cash to such tropical destinations as Darlington and Leeds the other day... needless to say I had a few "do you not want my ^2.25 senior return to Central?" looks, but then I usually say "what a great job our forces do for us and deserve to be dealt with efficiently..." (translates to: better in my pocket than some XC TM [sorry readytostart]... ;D)
Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: readytostart on January 16, 2010, 12:09:02 It doesn't happen so much anymore as most of them exchange their warrants before they get on the train, although I had a decent 'haul' of squaddies paying on card/cash to such tropical destinations as Darlington and Leeds the other day... needless to say I had a few "do you not want my ^2.25 senior return to Central?" looks, but then I usually say "what a great job our forces do for us and deserve to be dealt with efficiently..." (translates to: better in my pocket than some XC TM [sorry readytostart]... ;D) Getting personal now are we! :P They'd have to go the long way round for me to be selling them a ticket to anywhere, assuming I have summised your location correctly. I hope I have as hitmen arent cheap, even in these times of crunching the credit! ;D I'll put the last comment down to a mutual respect between those who try and do best by the passengers, even if the company don't! Off on a tangent, is rivalry between FGW train managers more MTUal respect than mutual respect? See what I did there! Title: Re: "Jobsworth denies Heroes travel" Post by: Tim on January 18, 2010, 17:15:51 I'll wear my white feather with pride. I'm not a pacifist on principle but the current wars that our troops are fighting are something I am deeply ashamed of. many soldiers are decent people and whilst I wouldn't agree the Islamofascist Choudry in calling them murders, I do think "Heros" is wide of the mark. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |