Great Western Coffee Shop

I was looking at the walk-up fares for Redland to Cosham (with a railcard travelling off-peak) and discovered that every time you add an additional ticket, the total cost actually becomes cheaper:

RDA-CSA ^22.45

RDA-SAL ^11.90
SAL-CSA ^10.10
Total ^22.00 (Saving ^0.45)

RDA-WMN ^5.90
WMN-SAL ^3.75
SAL-CSA ^10.10
Total ^19.75 (Saving ^2.70)

RDA-WMN ^5.90
WMN-SAL ^3.75
SAL-SOU ^5.00
SOU-CSA ^4.80
Total ^19.45 (Saving ^3.00)
(I'm sure the guard would love me when I ask for all these tickets on the train at RDA!)

If you change to a Southern train at SOU (as you would need to in the evenings), then a further 25p can be saved by buying a Southern Only ticket.

I think it's that 'local' tickets cost less per mile that long distance / intercity ones .. so to a certain point, the more splits the cheaper.   I wonder about that Newquay to Kyle of Lochalsh fare that was being touted around recently, and what that would work out as Newquay - Par - Plymouth - Exeter - Taunton - Cheltenham - Birmingham - Stafford - Warrington - Lancaster - Penrith - Dumfries - Kilmarnock - Glasgow - Stirling - Dunkeld - Kingussie - Inverness - Dingwall - Achnasheen split.

Naughty question - if you buy a ticket that's split at a request stop, do you have to get the train to stop there (if optionally scheduled to do so) in order to validate your tickets?

Yes.

One would assume that the guard checking the ticket would stop the train/ expect to have stopped at the station your ticket is valid from!

It's taken a bit of doing but I think I've found the best splits for the Newquay-Kyle of Lochalsh run. The CrossCountry First Class Anytime Return fare is ^1068, and with splits (a lot of them!) I've got it down to ^650.70 using First Class walk up fares appropriate to the time of day for each leg. Between Newquay and Par there are currently no trains conveying First Class so I've included a STD fare. Also between Inverness and Kyle of Lochalsh there are no First Class fares in Avantix.

Newquay-Par ^9.60(1xSDS 1x CDS). Par-Plymouth ^29.60(FOR). Plymouth-Exeter SD ^26.00(FSR).
Exeter SD-Taunton ^28.00(FSR). Taunton-Bristol TM ^28.00(FSR). Bristol TM-Cheltenham Spa ^34.00(FOR).
Cheltenham Spa-Birmingham NS ^57.00(FOR). Birmingham NS-Stafford ^23.40(FOR). Stafford-Crewe ^30.40(2xFDS).
Crewe-Warrington BQ ^26.40 (2xFDS). Warrington BQ-Preston ^24.50(FOR). Preston-Lancaster ^18.00(2xFDS).
Lancaster-Oxenholme LD ^20.20(2xFDS). Oxenholme LD-Penrith ^48.90(FOR). Penrith-Carlisle ^34.00(2xFDS).
Carlisle-Lockerbie ^38.30(FOR). Lockerbie-Glasgow Central ^46.00(FOR). Glasgow Queen St-Inverness ^97.60(FOR).
Inverness-Achnasheen ^15.40(SOR) Achnasheen-Kyle of Lochalsh ^15.40(SOR).
Total ^650.70

I've avoided using the Caledonian Sleeper and factored in overnight stops en route.

Theoretical journey departing Newquay Monday 11th January. Two nights in Kyle of Lochalsh returning Thursday 14th. All trains include calls at the fare split points I've used.

OUT
Newquay 0657- Par 0748 (FGW)
Par 0755 - Taunton 1025 (FGW)
Taunton 1051 - Birmingham NS 1256 (XC)
Birmingham NS 1331 - Stafford 1400 (XC)
Stafford 1435 - Crewe 1456 (LM)
Crewe 1509 - Preston 1551 (VT)
Preston 1653 - Carlisle 1806 (VT)
overnight stay
Carlisle 0751 - Glasgow Central 0914 (VT)
transfer to Glasgow Queen Street
Glasgow QS 1011 - Inverness 1327 (FSR)
Inverness 1334 - Kyle of Lochalsh 1559 (FSR)

RETURN
Kyle of Lochalsh 0621 - Inverness 0853 (FSR)
Inverness 0918 - Glasgow QS 1246 (FSR)
transfer to Glasgow Central
Glasgow Central 1340 - Carlisle 1449 (VT)*
Carlisle 1530 - Preston 1642 (TP)
Preston 1717 - Crewe 1759 (VT)
Crewe 1822 - Stafford 1842 (LM)
overnight stay
Stafford 0825 - Birmingham NS 0858 (XC)
Birmingham NS 0912- Exeter SD 1146 (XC)
Exeter SD 1209 - Par 1358 (FGW)
Par 1403 - Newquay 1455 (FGW)

*Although this service doesn't call at the split point of Lockerbie, travel is permitted as doubling back at Carlisle is a permitted route to Lockerbie. No need to do the double-back of course!!

...and finally.... yes I know, anorak city :D But there was no footy highlights to watch tonight so I thought I'd tackle this. Pretty pointless, but engrossing and sort of fun. I should get out more!

Thanks very much for all that research, bignosemac!  ;) :D ;D

One of the things I find fascinating about this forum is that we have members here who are so interested in the technicalities of UK rail travel that they want to undertake such 'investigative journalism'.

So, how about offering your 'research results' to the Daily Mail, as a 'top money saving tip'?

C.  :D

Damn....all that work calculating the split fares and I forgot one thing. My theoretical trip form Newquay to Kyle of Lochalsh and back in 5 days can be done by purchasing one ticket for ^565. A 7 day First Class All Line Rail Rover.  In fact why bother with the journey via Brum at all, go via London paying an extra ^8 for two tube singles. ::) :-[

But that ^1068 fare is valid for one month, so what's the cheapest way if I wanted to stay away that long? You haven't compared like with like either.

Recently there seems to be a growing number of rail staff who don't know the rules with regard to splitting tickets.

My daughter travels from Kent to Wiltshire (and back), often using the W'loo - Temple Meads service. She is no longer a "young person" and uses a Network Card for part of the route.
She "splits" at Basingstoke to get the best fares, at her last attempt to buy the two tickets (at Rochester) she was told that she was "not allowed to do that" - when she said jokingly that she would "hop-off and back on again" she was then told that was not allowed either and that she would have to get a different train onward from Basingstoke !
The lady in the ticket office initially seemed to say that "splitting" was not allowed - full stop. When my daughter insisted that it was, the lady then changed tack slightly and said it was in the conditions of her Network rail card (it isn't, it just refers back to NRCoC). Apart from which she isn't actually "splitting" a Network Card journey, only using it to get to Basingstoke, then using an undiscounted ticket onward from there.

Eventually the ticket office did give her the tickets she asked for but still said that she was not allowed to do this. This is not the first time this has happened to her in recent months - is there now an unofficial "policy" of trying to reduce the number of split tickets being sold ??

PS: She had no bother on the train and I have sent her the relevant section fom NRCoC to carry with her.

What tickets was she buying?

As I understand it, they cannot refuse to sell you tickets requested - it is down to staff doing ticket checks to enforce any ticket restrictions.

Send a complaint to Southeastern that staff do no know the NRCOC.

As you say you can purchase a Network railcard discounted ticket up to the Network railcard boundary station and purchase another ticket that covers your journey to your destination station outside the boundary.

I often buy my first leg of the journey at the ticket machine, then the split at the office, to avoid any potential grief.

I think she was buying something like Super Off Peak Returns, or something of that ilk, as she normally doesn't have enough notice to get an Advance, and has to be a bit flexible about returning.

Totally agree with your other comments: they HAVE to sell you what you ask for, and it is up to others to enforce any applicable restrictions.

Timmer: Your comment actually shows up another quirk in the splitting fares story in this particular case. She could use her Network card all the way to Salisbury, but the fares are structured in such a way that she gets a better saving on the overall trip if she forgoes the extra Railcard discount to Salisbury because of the large increase in fare from Rochester to SAL compared to BSK.
to BSK = ^22.40
to SAL = ^34.60
Whole trip:
Split at BSK. ^42.00 ret
Split at SAL. ^46.20 ret

You're quite right. However my theoretical journey was completed within a week. (I wanted to avoid weekend timetables which make the split points and changes more difficult!)  If you want to spend longer than a week in Kyle then my split options may be the cheapest 1st class fare. Return within the week then the Rover works out cheaper.

The alternative route via London can also be split to save on the advertised ^749.00 First Class Anytime Return. I managed to get that down to ^560.30 by splitting at London, Edinburgh, Inverness and Strathcarron.

Absurd, its absurd....

I wanted to get a train arriving at Reading (Theale is where I want to actually go)) at 17:00 on Tues 19th Jan and then returning to Cardiff on Mon 25th Jan for 10:45 (leave Reading at 09:10)

2 singles = ^47 for those allocated times, and flex return approx ^52

Buying to Swindon on each route and then continuing my journey = ^31! A saving of ^16.

 But thats not all. It was cheaper from Swindon on the return journey for me to get an advance First Class ticket than an ordinary advance ticket!?!

I look forward to bamboozling the train manager, and myself.

This usually happens because people will always assume that First Class is more expensive and wont check the price, so when it comes to Advance tickets you will sometimes as in your case see that the First Class is the cheaper option :)

Definitely always worth checking the first class price when booking Advance tickets - I've managed to get a cheaper journey by travelling first class once or twice.

And when travelling longer distances, first class, on an Advance ticket with certain operators, it's worth factoring in the cost of complimentary items. A couple of coffees and some nibbles would set you back around a fiver if travelling in Standard.....

Then there's the 'cost' of a better ambience to factor in as well. For me it makes all the difference when comparing, say, a ^15 Std Advance versus a ^25 1st Advance.

Sometimes even though First Advances are dearer than Standard ones, it can be worth the upgrade. Spending 3 hours on a Vomiter in First Class is just about bearable as there are no crowds. Factor in the fact that I can get through 4 cans of coke, two teas, some biscuits, crisps and a sandwich in this time.....

Hmm. Losing weight clearly wasn't one of your New Year resolutions, then?  ::) ;D

On the subject of splitting tickets I have found a strange anomaly in the system.
I wanted to make a journey from Winchester to a station in Cornwall, so I decided I would split between Winchester and Exeter St Davids in order to use my Network Railcard discount. However, if the route chosen for this element of the journey is Westbury/Southampton, it seems the guards ticket machines and the self service machines are still applying the nc discount, even though the journey between salisbury and exeter st davids is presumably outside of the published boundary- I therefore now have a ticket costing 24.90, marked as NSE discount, but the route is marked as 'Westbry Shampton'.
So really what I am asking, is the ticket valid on the route via Castle Cary or not? It doesn't state 'Honiton Shampton', that particular option was actually a couple of pounds more.
When I get to Westbury and join a HST what is the guards reaction likely to be?

The short answer is no.
NSE cards are not valid on the FGW mainline west of Bedwyn or the Portsmouth - Bristol line north of Salisbury. You could use the arguement of "the machine sold it so it must be valid" but I know that won't wash with some guards. Three possible outcomes...
1) The guard doesn't notice (unlikely, they tend to know about NSE cards on FGW trains)
2) They charge excess upto non discounted fare
3) They charge for a whole new ticket, ignoring what you have


http://www.railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/File/map.pdf

Thanks for your swift reply.
Slightly concerning I suppose that it is possible to purchase a ticket that can never be valid, but hardly suprising given the current fare structure.
If I wanted to now pay the couple of quid excess to have the ticket valid via Honiton instead, do I have to elect to do this before I commence the journey at Winchester? Or could it be done by the SWT guard on the train between Winchester and Southampton? On the other hand could the FGW guard on the train between Soton and Westbury do an excess for the Honiton route if the train had not reached salisbury yet? Im potentially in an awkward situation if I get to Winchester and theres a long queue at the ticket office.
 ??? ??? ???

To avoid the usual 'nothing to do with us' arguments, I'd suggest if you bought from SWT originally, trying to sort it out with an SWT ticket office, either Winchester, or Southampton (21 min connection typically). 

Looking at the times in the journey planner over the a sample of about 6 hours, the 'via Westbury' route is only ten mins quicker to Exeter, but in a few hours it wasn't offered, so I suggest a lot depends on whether the NSE discount is more important than the ability to go via Westbury, especially now that SWT service is hourly all day.

Also depends on connection time at Exeter if you do go via Westbury of course.

Looking at the wider problem of a TVM issueing an invalid ticket - it will be some sort of software error I'm sure, like testing that origin and destination are in the NSE card area before they check the route. Should probably report it to SWT.

I got into bother on 'One' years ago, their machine allowed me to 'select' the Network Card before 1000, so printed NSE on the ticket, but with the correct undiscounted fare, IYSWIM. So a checker at the destination tried to give me a PF, even though I'd paid the correct fare. After an email complaint I got an admission from 'One' that their software was badly programmed, and that the Network Card option was wrongly presented.

Paul

Have I got something wrong here?  Shouldn't it be up to the people who program the ticket machines to make sure that they don't issue tickets that can't be valid?  And shoudn't a ticket that says "via Westbury" be valid for travel via Westbury even if it was only issued because of a software glitch?   In a sane world, if an official ticket machine issues you with a ticket, you should be able to take that as a right to travel as specified IHMO.

Of course, if the fare structure is too complex to be programmed, someone could simplifythe system  :)

In the end, I popped down to my local station this afternoon and coughed up the ^2.70 to have the route excessed to via Honiton, since for the time of day I was travelling it would have resulted in the same arrival time at my eventual destination anyway and saved me the bother of the potential arguement on the train later. But I would tend to agree with Grahame that if a machine issues it, it should be valid- theres there potential for less experienced travellers to get in a real pickle here.

It is not as if it is the only software fault associated with use of a Network Card, some of the SWT machines allow you to select the card for fares that were originally under ^13 in the first place- resulting in the fare being automatically raised to that minimum level, a bit of a nasty trick really. I dont know if FGW machines do the same thing.

Nearly all TOCs TVMs do this. There can be advantages in certain marginal circumstances - for instance if you want to take a group of children with you, but it would be better if it only happened when sensible - such as when the additional children have been selected at the same transaction.

Paul

Slough to Cardiff = ^21 quoted leaving Slough at 13:36 next Wed (23rd June) arriving Cardiff 15:46

Slough to Swindon and then Swindon to Cardiff = ^5+^5= ^10 leaving Slough at 13:36 next Wed (23rd June) arriving Cardiff 15:46

So thats more than 50% off by splitting tickets. My best result yet!

Well done Glovidge for spotting that split.

But doesn't it just go to show what a crazy system we have for fares.

How about Plymouth - Cheltenham same day return.  Straight through was ^55+ odd

Plymouth - EXD - Taunton - BRI - Cheltenham Spa splits got it down to ^20 all on CDRs.
That took time, using 4 different TOC websites to check the various legs, but booked all through FGW and picked all up at PLY TVM, though I had 4 booking refs and had to insert my card 4 times.

A good spot!  If you use the NFM, you can very quickly search for all the different splits (obviously this costs ^10...).  Also, the East Coast website gives one reference number for all your tickets that are bought together - which The Train Line powered sites don't normally do.

You don't save anything splitting at Exeter:

PLY - EXD CDR:  ^7.50
EXD - TAU CDR:  ^9.40
Total:  16.90

PLY - TAU CDR:  15.60

Not necessarily: many of you will be able to see our 'frequent posters' area for details.  ;)

Teehee <cough>  ;)

UK rail journey pricing is a morass of insanity.

(Off-topic/ Non-FGW) A friend recently explained to me how to get advance purchase tickets from Ludlow to Mallaig and back for ^50 or so. The 2nd class return is ^163 which would have been a non-starter, ruling out making the journey.

Why cannot we have a renationalised railway and a website to book journeys & fill the trains as functional and transparent as say Easyjet's website? (the price of a seat depends sensitively on demand for that day and time of day, a 2000 km journey may vary from ^40 to ^150). They achieve 85% load factor. If the railways could do this they would save fuel as they achieve nowhere near 85% load factor.

With modern ICT, programming this to work for a single integrated railway system would be a relative piece of cake.

A renationalised railweay is going to cost more to run, and this country doesn't exactly have spare funds at this moment in time....

How can you compare loading on airlines (single a->b trip) with trains which make multiple stops??? At what point do you measure a train's loading for comparison....

Take a look at some morning commuter trains, 150+% load factor (if we count pax versus seats). Even off-peak local services can regularly load beyond 100% at some points on the journey. Try a trip between Southampton and Bristol on a Sunday afternoon.

I'll agree that UK fares are a 'morass of insanity' though.

What gets me is the cost of walk on first fairs in the middle of the day and the fact there are no super off peak

Recently I've often been pootling about during the day and I swear half the first carriages are carting hot air - when standard is pretty busy.

Why don't they have a super off peak for first on routes where they can't fill the carriages.  The only option is the full walk on which most (nor will I) pay

They do - they're called First Advance....done that way to *ensure* that you only travel on off-peak trains. They are purchasable up to 1800 the evening before you want to travel, and very rarely sell-out of the allocation.

Chris - I think you're offering FallenAngel a product that doesn't meet her needs - she asked about walkon fares, but you've offerred an advanced ticket.

There are a number of travellers - I'm one too - who travel off peak when we can, but we can't be sure ahead of time of the exact timing.   A flight arrival into Gatwick, a job completed in the evening in London and wanting to catch the next train home - a such times we can't be sure exactly which train we'll be catching, so a specific-train ticket won't work.   And the gap, 2nd to 1st, is so huge that few people use the first.

Maybe an advance ticket that specifies can only be used between 10am and 4pm maybe?

Even if its restricted to a certain day?

That would be what is needed

Example

Last Thursday my VPN token went down....I knew I had to get to the office to get it fixed.  It was about midday.

I got the 2 something from ludlow to newport and then the 3:39 - I think - from newport to reading.  The first class carriages on the train were empty.  Standard was full.  I could not have bought an advance I did not know the journey had to be made.

Yet the cost was extortionate compared to the standard fare

Friday - I got the 13:41 from Reading to Newport.  Again, and empty train in first but busy in standard.  i could not book advance as I had no idea how long he replacement token would take.

I can understand the price differential in the peak but why when they are carting around empty air, have that differential in the middle of the afternoon

Ah, but there are some Off Peak First Class Fares.
Example - Bristol TM to Paddington ^264 Anytime First Return; ^154 First Class Off Peak return = earliest dept. from TM is 08.41 and latest return from Padd is 16.30 (and again 18.45 and later.

Cross Country also do Off Peak at just over half of Anytime Return, though the service offered is rubbish, and on some trains you might fight for a seat.

Oh please, not this old chestnut again!  ::) Let's bear in mind that most (although admittedly not all) of this so-called "morass of insanity" was inherited direct from BR with many different ticket types, differing time restrictions, different rates per mile depending on whether the journey was priced by Intercity, Network Southeast or Regional Railways etc etc etc. Although actually now we've largely moved away from advance tickets with various different names promoted by different TOCs (although by definition they will generally be valid only for use on a particular operator) we're not actually that far away from where BR left off again.

I know there are a lot of (misled...?) idealists out there who seem to believe that all the problems the current railway has would be solved overnight by renationalization, but I really don't agree with that argument at all. No doubt many of them are from the "grass is always greener on the other side" posse who complained incessantly about what a mess BR was when it was in existence.

From a quick look in the fares manual, D, all you're quoting here is the difference between the off-peak return for the journey and advance tickets (GBP 163 vice GBP 50ish depending on the combination that's available). Exactly the same situation would have existed under BR, with Saver, Supersaver SuperAdvance and Apex tickets available for that journey. The GBP163 fare has no time real time restrictions (any train after 0415) and for a journey of that length, for a fully flexible ticket with no advance booking requirement I would say it represents fairly good value. To be able to make that journey for GBP 50 is an incredible bargain. Let's face it, in the real world, you're not going to be able to travel from Wick to Penzance at the drop of a hat for GBP 20 so to expect to be able to travel very long distances for almost no money isn't realistic.

Newport - Reading is ^ 123 as opposed to ^209 Anytime

Which is still a MASSIVE difference between standard and first

If the first off peak were maybe 10/20 more than standard - betcha there would be a whole more people in there

Agreed, but the O/P First is ^10 cheaper than the Anytime Standard Class (^133), though Super O/P Standard is only ^51. You might want a little more than a Diet Coke and Nuts for the price difference.

Well said, blakey. Our rail network is obviously failing.  ;) Record numbers of passengers, record numbers of trains running. There's only a small percentage of rolling stock over 30 years old - and what is a little old has been, in most cases, tarted up and/or re-engineered. Stations have been improved across the network (some noteable exceptions though - Wakefield Kirkgate!). Customer care has improved immesurably from the days of BR. The network's safety record is also very good.

Yes, there's overcrowding in some places, lack of service in others but the network as a whole is a vast improvement on the days of BR.

Now.... just these damn fares to sort out!

Almost every piece of rolling stock running here in the west was built in BR days (except vomiters...say no more!).

Record numbers of trains running ... has occurred as a gradual process more or less in step with gradually increasing passenger numbers. Look at some old timetables: on lines like Cardiff-Portsmouth the long haul upwards started back in BR days.

My point is simply that to ascribe any improvements to privatisation is to overlook many other factors that have played a part - road congestion, economic growth, new technology etc.

And royally pissing off those who have paid full fare / season ticket holders!!!.

Sorry, the upgrade needs to be a reasonablly decent amount on long-distance routes...

But if there were decent walk on fares, people who CAN travel off peak would be less likely to pay for an anytime but in return, more people would most likely travel in first thereby offsetting the revenue loss and making standard less busy

Looking after your Premium paying passengers has got to be priority number 1, I feel. Otherwise they'll be lost to Standard too.

And how do these full fare paying passengers know what you've paid? No need for you to broadcast it.

I agree with FA. Bums on 1st class seats with a cheaper Off-Peak or Super Off Peak 1st class fare makes sense to me. Better than carting around air. You are unlikely to upset many full fare passengers or season holders as they are most likely on peak services.

Taking the Bristol to Paddington example; the current 1st class Off Peak return is almost 3 times the cost of the equivalent Standard product. ^154 versus ^59. I'd suggest ^99 Off Peak and ^89 Super Off Peak. Then price the Advances accordingly.

Not usually one to advocate yet more ticket types, but in this instance I think there is a strong business case.

I can't disagree with that, and will take it to the next Fares committee meeting....

But I suspect FA was looking for fares even cheaper than that....

Actually those sound perfectly reasonable compared to the standard fare

This thread has now diverged well away from its original subject of "split tickets". I'm inclined to have a go and see if I can split it out into separate subjects dealing with cheaper off-peak first class fares and possibly a bit of a debate about rail nationalization or otherwise as well. Any objections?

If not, wish me luck, unweaving the different interlocking threads of discussion could prove tricky...  :)

If First Class was full during the middle of the day, would you pay a premium to travel in it?

One thing I like about FC is the fact that I have the space to stretch out and more often than not do not have people snooping on what I am doing.

Happy to see the thread split. Makes sense to me to keep this current thread for 'Split Fares' info only. Perhaps a sticky as well?

Highly unlikely it would be full even with proper off peak fares

And yes I would - even 1/4 or 1/2 a first class table is better than a standard airline seat if you need to get stuff done

Remember - I was always told First does not guarantee a table to yourself

This website gives some useful information and places where you can spilt your tickets: http://www.besttrainfares.info/  There aren't many spilt ticket examples for the FGW area though but Worcester, Bristol and Basingstoke do get mentioned.

That website is OK but it only gives a handful of example of split ticket.   There's loads more that could be posted on there, and this info could become a huge database of split ticket savings.  Just three more examples are

 Bristol-Plymouth/Paignton(or other destinations in Devon) - split at Taunton

Bristol-Swansea(or other destinations West of Cardiff - split at Cardiff

Bristol-London - split at Didcot Parkway

Cheaper splitting at Taunton

Yes sorry, Taunton is what I should have said.

May have a record here.

I need to do Worcester - Preston return on Tues Aug 17. Because it's the school holidays, I'll do First from Birmingham to Preston. With a railcard,

Worcester - Preston = ^115.50
Splitting at B'ham (sensible anyway - no First from Worcester to B'ham) = ^106.05
Splitting at B'ham, Wolverhampton, Crewe and Wigan, so that I've got five tickets in all = ^79.20.

Which record is that - most splits? ;D

Your 79.20 total fare is 68.57% of the 115.50.  Also tomorrow morning ... I can find a 17.30 total fare that's just 34.6% of the walk up direct 50.00 fare; that's a single split on a through journey (06:16 to 07:36).  (Swindon to Salisbury, Warminster split)

Most splits (or possible most splits per mile, because I'm sure that some of the Penzance - Wick examples had more).

Definitely not in the 'most savings' league.