Great Western Coffee Shop

From The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article6968492.ece):

Every year there's criticism about the fact hardly any trains run on Boxing Day. My views haven't changed since we debated it last year: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4057.30 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4057.30)

It doesn't look like anything is about to change on FGW's routes. There's a drivers restructuring referendum currently taking place for the LTV drivers, which makes no specific mention of the Xmas and Boxing Day commitments changing - currently drivers don't work Xmas and Boxing Day and if they would normally be rostered to work they are obliged to use their Annual Leave entitlement on those days.

And, just like every other year, virtually all the bus routes in North Devon have had their normal Sunday service on both Xmas Day and Boxing Day...

Just because some people want to cure their boredom by going to the shops shouldn't mean that rail workers should have to give up their Christmas break! Fine to let them volunteer in advance & run whatever service they might be able to provide, but it should certainly be voluntary.

In Spain, the buses run a Saturday service on both days.....

The 08.40 ex Plymouth was interesting to say the least this morning.

By the time the train had got to Newbury it was impossible to get anymore passengers on board and those hoping to use the train to go shopping in Reading had no chance.

We stood in First Class  to Reading which was full down the aisles (both 1st and standard) along the buffet and in all of the vestibules (1st and standard).

A visit to Trowbridge about lunchtime revealed a hand written message " The next train to Bristol is not until 1300.  It is currently suffering from delays and severe overcrowding".

I think this subject is going to add a great deal of heat to Christmas at The Coffee Shop every year.

It strikes me as odd that the public transport is almost completely shut down on Boxing day when so many people want to make journeys to go to the shops, to visit relatives, and to sporting fixtures. Indeed, carrying on with the sporting analogy it's something of an own goal by the public transport industry; it shows that many people can travel without the need for it on that day ... so why not on other days too?

The press was also telling us that this was the first time in 11 years that Boxing Day fell on a Saturday ... and with the different superimposition of the Christmas holiday on the week each year, it must be almost impossible for the public transport industry to knwo how much traffic to predict.   I venture to suggest that things have changed sufficiently in 11 years for the 1998 statistics for travel on Sunday, 27th December to be useful in gauging what service to provide.

P.S.  It wasn't really even a Sunday service today at my local station .... only one train in three actually ran ...

Having seen the hordes waiting at Reading this morning for a London bound HST as it pulled in, it struck me that a few more services would not have gone amiss. Fortunately we were in 1st, but I reckon there were enough people trying to board to fill every seat on the train. And previously the TM had been announcing for people to take their reserved seats only, which makes me suspect that it was full even before arriving at Reading.

Though I have less sympathy over Boxing Day morning. I don't subscribe to the view that the railway (and hence its employees) should put on a service just to pander to the retailers and people who wish to indulge themselves in sales on Boxing Day. Though some service later in the day would be a useful public service in years when the 27th is neither a weekend or a public holiday, otherwise people have no means of travelling home in time to return to work the following morning.

It's a difficult balance, and one that will never please everyone.

why dont they do work on the line at night?

Nothing is likely to change until the next franchise.  Perhaps we should diarise the discussion for then!

I don't understand why a full Sunday service wasn't provided on the 27th?  I am in agreement that have Xmas & Boxing shut-down but then get back to "normal" immediately. 

I think if you can't put up with relatives until the morning of the 27th then shame on you all... you all have another 363 days of making excuses not to see them until next Christmas eve ;D :P

Talking of busy trains, todays 1000 Penzance - Paddington left Liskeard 18 mins late due to the sheer number of people try to board it. It spent 5 mins at every single Cornish station, and its a "High Density" set. Cosy!

Those who work in the shops have give up their Christmas break to cure those bored people - why should rail workers be any different? Anyway, a Boxing Day service would provide for far more than a few shoppers. There are a significant number of people who would want to return home from a short break later on Boxing Day and this would relieve the immense pressure early on the 27th which I have witnessed in previous years and from comments in this thread was as bad as ever this year. There are also a significant number of sporting events.

We're not talking about a service of anywhere near the usual frequency, but on key routes I am convinced that a workable (and financially viable) service could and indeed should be provided. It's more negative press for the railways every year as long as they continue not too.

There are probably enough staff who would volunteer to work (at a suitably enhanced rate) without 'forcing' anybody to go to work on Boxing Day - a special system could be introduced where volunteers commit a few months in advance to ensure you have enough people on the ground - though I can appreciate that arranging for it to happen (station staff, guards, drivers, booking offices, signalboxes, maintenance staff etc.,) makes it not quite as easy to introduce as it may look on paper.

The unions want very silly money to work on Boxing day - very  :o silly money - TOCs would need peak fares all day just to get close to paying for it.....and we all know what furore there would be in the gutter press.

No, everyone would expect usual bank holiday fares (Groupsave, cheapo advance tickets etc) - I can understand why TOCs effectively say "Why should we make a large loss just so that retailers (mostly) can fill their pockets".....

Why should they run any service if it makes loss? It's all down to whether a decision is made that TOCs have to run a service by the DFT as the TOCs will not run the service on their own. As you said about the unions wanting silly money though, it also shows how difficult it can be to sort this out anyway as sadly this could be another area for Bob Crow to encourage his RMT union to cause yet more disruption

Someone should perhaps tell Eurostar they're throwing all this money away then, as they seen to think that a practically normal Saturday service is worth operating on Boxing Day. The fact that they, and airport links, are operating hints that the 'it'll be only shoppers that use it' argument might not be quite as strong as you think.

And what about Southern and South Eastern's services this Boxing Day (along with the Strathclyde area)? Concentrating on a limited service on their core routes they also seem to have been persuaded that a viable service can operate. Why shouldn't the same be the case on the suburban route into Paddington from Reading as well as others?

Things are changing, slowly, and I'll bet that in 20 years the notion of no trains running on most routes Boxing Day will be ludicrous, just like the Sunday shopping argument over the last few decades. The world is changing, whether the railway industry likes it or not, and it would be nice if TOC's embraced the change for once rather than bury their heads in the sand until it's impossible to ignore.

You totally failed to address my point, as you do with others on a regular basis.....

Why should TOCs make a loss on Boxing Day?

Eurostar compete with the airlines, not other TOCs, hence they run when the airlines do. Simple.

Southeastern are still a Government-run TOC, I believe, so probably do the DfT bidding - and are under a different payment regime to the DfT, hence easier to organise.

Other TOCs are under franchise contracts which don't require them to run Boxing Day trains. Simple.

You need to argue your case with the DfT, not the TOCs.

Yes, I reckon the DfT will be specifying Boxing Day running one day in new franchises. Until then, I don't agree with you - the staff are entitled to their time off. Simple.

Because the railways are a public service? (or at least they should be!)

Well, since FRanchisation, they aren't!

Again, your argument is with the DfT and through the ballot box - but I don't think you'll find a party likely to be elected that agrees with you.

I am sorry I cant agree with this.  Management have never even asked us to work on Boxing day so how can you know what the unions will ask for.  Just to let you know a small number of drivers already work on Boxing day on a voluntary basis. I believe they get get paid double time when compared to Sunday at time and a quarter hardly seems to be an enourmous amount of money.

What you have to realise is that there is no incentive for FGW to run a service as they will not actually make any money.  There will be extra staff costs, fuel costs and track access costs to pay.  Yes there will be people travelling but most of them will travel the day after anyway.  The only new travellers will be day trippers and shoppers etc.  As franchise are coming up for renewal Boxing day working is being added - look at southern which did run a  very small boxing day service this year.

If there was money to be made then FGW would have done it already.  

Exactly!

And what about the number of Xmas returnees that would want to travel on that day if a 'proper' service was implemented?

Huge numbers, requiring almost a peak service all day....again on expected off-peak fares, if they could run such a service....you'd need boarding cards to keep the trip comfortable.

btw - TOCs have discussed it with the unions, who as you say want a minimum of double time with the addition of time off in lieu - effectively meaning triple time. Track Access charges would be higher, because Network Rail staff (those not currently rostered for engineering work possessions) would be expecting the same increases.

And then those who would be working during the possessions would expect equality obviously.

The only way this will work is if the DfT funds it - and you know how much the Government is in hock already - they won't be interested for many years to come.

It just isn't going to pay the TOCs to do it....

A lot of focus on the big bad retailers. But what about their staff? Do they not deserve public transport options to get them to and from work?

And what of the rest of the travelling public who are forced into their cars on Boxing Day because they need to get back home after visiting family so they can return to work on the 27th?

With no return option on the 26th many people cannot even countenence using the train at all over Christmas. The argument that Boxing Day will not pay for itself from the farebox maybe a little spurious; it won't just be shoppers and daytrippers on day tickets. Add in the revenue from folks returning home after spending Christmas Day with relatives and you could see Boxing Day trains as being a worthwhile thing.

I myself had no choice but to stay at me Mum's until the 27th. Although the home cooking and pleasant company was worth it, I would've liked the choice to come home on the 26th.

I wouldn't suggest running even a full Sunday service, maybe just half the usual Sunday trains. That could be financially viable and the TOC's could get sufficient volunteers without offering silly money.

(And just a note to ChrisB. Upthread he said he believed Southeastern was still under DfT control. South Eastern Trains handed over to Southeastern (parent company Govia) on April 1st 2006.)

Yes but you cant add them in.  If they are making the trip by train they will travel the day after anyway.  So you can only include the day trippers etc.  As I say FGW is there to make a profit.  If they felt with the extra costs it would be worth running a service they would do so.

See my post upthread. The number of people who would want to travel if you offered this sort of service would create serious overcrowding problems & the demand for more & more trains. Your suggestion just wouldn't be practical!


Thanks! My memory fails me.....
[/quote]

If you read my entire post you would see that I was suggesting that many folk will not travel at all over Christmas because there is no option of a return on the 26th. No point taking the train to your relatives on the 24th if you can't return on the 26th. So offering a service on the 26th will increase revenue from this demographic. If you need to be home to return to work on the 27th you cannot travel by train, you have to drive.

If anything the TOCs would be doing the cause of family relationships the world of good. If you have the chance to escape back home on the 26th you lessen the time for arguments to flair up about what our Kev said about Auntie Joan last Christmas! ;D

Well, first we test the water one year, gauge demand then adopt, adapt and improve in future years. And if the dead tree press complain that first year about the overcrowding because the TOCs underestimated demand, then ATOC should just tell 'em, 'Well there was feck all last year' :P :D

Sorry, ChrisB - I have my opinions as do you. I don't deliberately fail to address anyone's point, but replies can get very messy if you try to do so. If others have noticed me deliberately evading other peoples points in my answers then nobody has ever said to me, and I strive to always acknowledge the other side of an argument if there is one when I state my opinions - something, which with respect, your own occasionally brusque manner of posting doesn't allow you to do. That being said I agree with many of your opinions.

I will answer your points as fully as I can now though.


Why should TOC's be obliged to operate any loss making services? Because they are required to under the terms of their franchise, and to a certain extend, paid a subsidy to do so. That way the delicate balance between making money and providing a service is largely maintained. Why should Boxing Day be any different, and what makes you so sure that they would all run at a loss? In my opinion it should be automatically included in the franchise commitments - and as you say it will hopefully happen soon.


And there's enough people wanting to travel on planes and Eurostar on Boxing Day (and the road network) to indicate that there is a passenger demand to be satisfied. As 'bignosemac' says, who knows how many extra people would get the train that would return on 26th and can't wait until 27th?


As 'bignosemac' has said, no they're not. And Southern certainly aren't. So, I'll ask again, why would it not be just as possible to organise a similar suburban service on FGW and SWT etc.?


I agree. The DfT should be taking some responsibility for this too, by including a Boxing Day specification within the franchise agreements.


And, if you re-read my post I was agreeing with you that it should be done on a volunteer basis only - I think there would be enough volunteers to operate at least the service I have been suggesting. There are enough volunteers every year to operate the TfL sponsored late evening services out of Paddington on New Years Eve, why should that not be the case on Boxing Day?

Double time and a day in lieu is effectively triple time, but not so costly for the TOC as the day in lieu would be taken in line with existing agreements on the number of drivers from any one depot off at any one time, so the train service doesn't suffer.

Finally, I agree with you that it isn't as simple to organise as it looks on paper (as I said in my earlier post), as issues over other staff, access charges and fares would all need to be addressed. But if all those things can be arranged in other industries, and also for 363 days of the year on the railways, I don't see why we should just dismiss it as too complicated. Simple.  ;)

↑ What he said. ↑  ;)

Just something else to throw into the melting pot:  How much engineering gets done on 25th/26th due to the network being effectively closed?  How much 'Rail Replacement' would be needed if a service was provided on the 26th...? You're looking at even more costs hiring in the coaches/staff (which I believe Network Rail would get stung for), and the normal frustrations for the public that come with being forced onto a RR coach :-[.

I might add, I agree with Industrial Insider in the fact that on a voluntary basis, there would be enough staff to cover services.  Staff were lining up at Exeter to work 1+3/4 on Sunday, so don't see why Boxing day would cause too many problems.

Or they will use the car, because they can't rely on the train to get them home when they need to.

A service adequate enough to get people home after the Xmas break (say starting at lunchtime, which would also enable those volunteering to work some festive cheer on Xmas Day) would in my view fulfill the wider "public service" requirement.  It would also limit the number of staff needed to work and so hopefully ensure that those who wished to spend Boxing Day with their family could as well.

 

From the BBC: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8432144.stm)

Methinks the TOCs could've made it pay, even if it were just shoppers and retail staff they were moving around. Then there's the wider enviromental bonus of getting folks out of their cars and onto the train.