Great Western Coffee Shop

I've heard a rumour that buying combinations of tickets for a through journey on the same train could be banned and you will be forced to change trains where you change from one ticket to the next?  Does anyone know more about this?

I'd like to see them enforce it.

Pack up stuff, get off train, get back on train in next carriage. 

How many train managers/guards are really going to be bothered or on  a busy peak train even realize?

It would be another pointless rule that revenue protection may try to uphold (if they ever bother to get on a train) but will otherwise be ignored - if it ever were introduced.

I can't see how they could make you change trains - especially if you have advance tickets tying you to particular trains.

Even if you have flexible tickets, how do you meet this rule ?   leave the train ? touch the platform ? move to a different seat ? tell the guard: "honest, I did get off and on, but you didn't see me doing it, because you were 5 coaches away doing the doors" !!

The only thing this would achieve is having to increase the time in the station at every stop to about 5 minutes !

I think the idea is that you would be forced to change trains, getting off the train and back on again wouldn't count as a change.

How would you deal with advance tickets?

What if the train you are on is the last train of the day?

 

As I say it's just a rumour so I have no idea how it would be enforced but I guess that if it were to be introduced it wouldn't apply to advance tickets.  I doubt the TOCs are losing much revenue through people splitting advance tickets.  In September I went from Newton Abbot to Nuneaton and by splitting at Cheltenham I saved over ^10.  I think this is what the TOCs want to stop people doing.

It's a rumour - nothing in it.

Out of interest, where did you hear it?

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=374#c-use of tickets

 Looking at conditions of carriage at the moment it seems quite legal.

 I think pressure groups would, hopefully, question any attempts by TOC's to change conditions of carriage.

It is absolutely, completely, entirely and 100% legitimate. You're right, any attempt to stop passengers re-booking/splitting tickets would require a change to the Conditions of Carriage.

Hmmm thats interesting...

I recently got a train from Frome down to Totnes via Westbury... Board at Frome ticketless (Ticket office closed, TVM Removed) asked the conductor on train for ticket, told me to get it at Westbury, arrive Westbury attempt to buy ticket and fail (Ticket Office Closed, TVM doesn't issue ticket starting from any other station) Board the Paignton train, sat in First Class (Wanted 1st  Ticket) waited Ticket Collector, Ticket Collector arrives... As to buy 2 tickets (Frome - Taunton & Taunton - Totnes) Ticket collector refuses to comply and insists I get off at Taunton and buy the Taunton - Totnes ticket at Taunton Station.

I couldn't really see why he was so grumpy about it, I had a genuine reason for not having a ticket, he would have let me have Frome - Totnes (about ^15 more :o ) and I could have stayed on the train till Newton Abbot... It didn't really bother me as I would have had to change trains anyway... but I still couldn't see what the problem was... >:(

There is no way that could happen/ be enforced! I bet the rumour's wrong.

Just sort the fares out!

Good job changing at Taunton is convenient, with the 1803 paddington penzance not far behind

I've heard the same rumour but with additional info that it is ATOC that want to make changes to the Conditions of Carriage to change this, posibly as a result of lost revenue through split ticketing. As has been pointed out though, it is impossible to enforce and is likely to lead to more uneccesary aggrevation for staff that challenge this whilst further confusing the travelling public. Seems to be a rumour which is probably true to a degree but is unlikely to happen as a result of the problems assosciated with it

If it is true then it just goes to show how greedy ATOC are. They need closing down.

Your ticket collector was absolutely 100% bang out of order. Looks like he was fishing for a bit more commission. The conductor on Frome - Westbury train should also have sold you your tickets. (unless he had no working Avantix).

Personally, I'd've refused to get off at Taunton, but then I'm an awkard bar steward when I encounter petty (and incorrect) officialdom. Luckily this is rare on FGW. Only time I've had a guard get a bit sniffy was when I asked for a double split from Shirehampton to Plymouth and a Ride Cornwall Ranger and I was using a Railcard....

If it is an idea that ATOC are considering then it wouldn't surprise me. They (and the individual TOCs) need to stop tinkering at the edges of fares and restrictions. What is needed is an independently commissioned study into the current fares mess structure we have in the UK. All involved parties; TOCs, Govt (national and local), passenger groups etc, should have an input and when a final decision is made on a new fares structure it should be controlled and implemented by a legally constituted independent body. I'm not usually one for further fragmentation of the rail network, but in this case I think it is needed.

ATOC have failed miserably in managing the fares structure since privatisation. The only positive has been Advance fares. But even these have added to the growing multitude of ticket options per journey we have had since April Fool's Day 1994.

Report him. That's a breach of the conditions of carriage, plain and simple. He needs, at the very least, what might euphemistically be referred to as some "re-training".

Indeed...! I thought he was wrong... But I couldn't be bothered to argue the point at the time as I had a report I needed to finish before arriving at Totnes... I needed to change at Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St Davids or Newton Abbot anyway so really it made no difference to me... But it's a good job I can still remember his name...

*Trout opens MS Outlook 2007 to write angry e-mail* ;D

I've got very little time for ATOC and they give the rail industry a bad name IMHO, especially when it comes to explaining fares increases! Yes it's there to serve the TOCs purposes but at least they could do a better job of representing the TOCs with better PR.

Even these were introduced at the expense of affordable walk-on fares on some routes.

Now that the Conditions of Carriage doesn't come in a printed format it is quite easy for ATOC to change it.

Does that not contravene the DDA?

Not a fan of the DDA but..........

People who need large print or something have to request it via the appropriate customer services department.

If I buy a ticket from (say) Temple Meads to Westbury, then another ticket from Westbury to Salisbury, (to take advantage of split ticketing) we would then have the ludicrous situation of the train companies stipulating how long I should spend on my visit to Westbury. If I decide that 5 seconds is long enough to spend at Westbury station just what right has the train company to tell me that I should spend an hour or two there ?

All rail tickets (whether advance purchase cheapos or full price tickets) can be purchased in advance, from travel centres, stations, travel agents (do they still sell 'em?) or internet.

THerefore, what is the difference between turning up at the TC/Station today and asking for a ticket Bristol to Swindon tomorrow, and a ticket Swindon to Reading tomorrow (peak or off peak doesn't matter) or turning up there tomorrow before your train departs?  If the answer is " sorry, sir. but you can only book Swindon to Reading tickets at Swindon" then the amount of rail business lost will see empty trains, ROSCOS going bust, and no ticketing commission for rail operators and train conductors.

Um!  Just another pointless rumour in my opinion.

I wonder if what might be happening is that ATOC realise (as they must) that split ticketing that produces much lower fares is an indication that the normal fares have gone a bit stupid, and looks bad for the whole industry. If I was in their shoes, I'd be quietly suggesting to the member TOCs that it was in all their interests to adjust fares to remove the more ridiculous discrepancies. If splitting fares then became a matter of saving only the odd few quid I think many pax would no longer bother...

Paul

That's already happening.

With FGW, ticket prices to / from Didcot from the West have gone up quite a bit in January....to dissuade this happening.

From January during the super off peak

Swindon - London Paddington
^39.80

Splitting at Didcot
^20 + ^8.90
Totals ^28.90

Still a considerable saving.

If it were a few pence, I'd still bother. I don't give away any money unnecessarily. But then maybe that's just me. As an example, I'll buy my rail ticket with PlusBus from East Coast's website for travel to/from Taunton, because it is 5p cheaper than buying it from the station. If there's an anomaly in my favour, I'll exploit it!!

Referring to the current version of the on-line National Rail Conditions of Carriage (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf), (updated 4 December 2009), it states quite clearly:

(my emphasis)

A couple of points from me:

1. Just in case it is really so easy for ATOC to amend these National Rail Conditions of Carriage without anyone noticing, now that they are no longer issued in printed form: I have saved a copy of this current wording as my own 'pdf'! ;)

2. And actually, what is the consultation process that would be required, if ATOC did want to introduce such a change to these National Rail Conditions of Carriage?  Rather detailed, convoluted and time-consuming, I'd suspect?

Does anyone have any credible source as to where this 'rumour' originated?

But wouldn't the DfT need to agree any changes?

If this "rumour" had a credible source, surely it wouldn't be a rumour then, but a fact  ;D

Don't know the full rules for it to be honest.

We just got told that we wouldn't be provided printed copies anymore as all going online, which makes it easier to change. You would hope that some form of consultation needs to be done..

IIRC they have only been changed once since privatisiation (the contentious issue there was clarification that tcikets remained the property of the TOC - there was a lot of fuss over whether this would prevent people keeping them for expenses claims, but the change was only done to prevent TOCs being accused of theft when their barriers retained tickets).  There was a consulation process then and I think that although the revision was driven by ATOC the department had the final say.  I can't see Adonis being sympathetic to ATOC on the split ticket issue after what he said about ATOC and the all line rover.   But he might not be arround for long and ATOC might get changes past a clueless tory who is new in the job and hasn't travlled by train before.  So passenger lobbying might be important. 

I think the main problem would be that ATOC could easily argue that Split Ticketing is not in the interests of the railway as it can cause confusion that buying tickets from A-C spliting at Bis cheaper than going direct from A-B herefore it is in the best interests of the passengers to remove this option. We all know this would of course be a lie but it could be a case of ATOC knows best.

Point taken: my clumsy wording.

What I meant was, did this suggestion of possibly 'banning split tickets' originate from somewhere within the rail industry (for example, in a company e-mail or official document), or was it a case of, 'Oh, I overheard someone down the pub saying this, so it must be true'.

Lies, damned lies ... and rumours?  ::)

I assume that the (admittedly supine) Passenger Focus would have to be consulted before any changes to the CoC - I'm pretty sure there are safeguards built into the system to avoid ATOC meddling with them to the significant detriment of the passenger.

No consultation needed - they get approval from the DfT and errr, change it.

Actually, I'm not sure they even need approval from DfT.

I have split season tickets:
Swindon - Didcot Parkway
Didcot Parkway - Reading

This has the added advantage of guaranteeing I get a Gold Card, which is generally only available if your season ticket is wholly within the old Network South East area. (But if you renew/get a replacement within the area they may give you a gold card).
It saves me ^372 compared to the Swindon - Reading ticket. It does limit me, but most trains do stop at Didcot. FGW claimed to have met their performance & reliability targets last year, so there was not a renewal discount. This made the decision for me. I renew in October so I was hit by the January 2009 rise of 6%

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, unfarepayingpassenger!  :)

Must be a pain if a train turns up that doesn't call at Didcot! (esp during disruption)

But if you have a season the train does NOT have to stop at the station....... only if you have a normal ticket.  If you have a season and want to split the train only has to pas through the station

I believe the rule is if ONE is a season ticket and the other is NOT ... but I may be wrong on that.  The idea being that split season tickets and split normal tickets are frowned upon, but if you want to extend a journey outside your normal season range, that's OK.

P.S.  Welcome to the forum, unfarepayingpassenger ... funny you should be posting about the weird fare system and strange rules  ;)

Not if they are both season tickets, as in this case.


Edit: Pipped to the post... again!

I stand corrected

To get a gold card only one of the stations needs to be in the netowrk area.  A Reading to Swindon annual would also be a gold card for discounted travel in the old Network Southeast Area. 

Have you considered that ATOC may not actually need to amend the rules on order to get a few scare-stories and create the impression in the minds of some that splitting tickets is illegal (or at least legally uncertain) even when it isn't.   Would ATOC stoop that low?

yes.

I have contacted fgw customer services and they confirm that Swindon-Reading is eligible for a gold card, but this is not the opinion of all fgw ticket sales staff. Those at Swindon station will not issue an initial gold card, but will issue a replacement. To get the first one the ticket needs to be purchased from a 'network' station (rightly or wrongly). The thing is you can't argue with toc staff because they think they're right and if you carry on they will probably get the BTP or private security thugs.

It used to be the case that all ticket offices carried gold card ticket stock.  A few years ago it was decided that stations outside the network area no longer needed to do so.  I dont know why it may have been to reduce the amount of ticket stock held.  For example Glasgow Central would not sell many gold cards. 

So stations outside the network area no longer issue the ticket on gold card stock but it is still a gold card.  Best if you buy the ticket from Reading that way you can guarantee it will be gold card on gold card stock.

And the TOC staff at Swindon are correct so please dont argue with them.

Annual Season tickets and Annual Travelcards should be issued as Gold Cards when either of the following conditions are met:-

^  The 'origin' station is within the Network Railcard area (click here for map).

^  The issuing station AND either the origin station, destination station or both, are within the Network Railcard area (click here for map).

The is quoted from the current ticket office manual so as you can see Swindon does not meet either of these conditions.  Recommend you buy your season ticket at Reading.

I don't feel I explained myself very well. ??? I meant I've seen other people argue with toc staff and seen what's happened. I contact their customer services, not go off on a rant. Which is why I had to email about the goldcard before I did my split because one of the staff at Reading refused to issue me a Swindon-Reading goldcard. ;D

If that happens, ask to dspeak to the Station Manager.