Great Western Coffee Shop

I have to say I much prefer the X-Country service and trains, compared with FGW.  They actually have electric doors AND they have been known to keep them clean, unlike FGW.  Obviously the cleanest trains I've ever been on were in Japan, and the dirtiest in Vietnam, but in all honesty, the late trains into Cornwall from London on a Saturday evening, are not far off the latter.  Fetid disgusting things...but I digress.

I did have one bad experience with X-Country.  St Erth to Sheffield return.  Going up was fine, but coming back took 2 hours longer, as we had to go via Newport, Wales, to pick up a member of staff.  How on earth is taking 6 full carriages, all the way to Newport and back (not a scheduled stop), to pick up one member of staff, in any way viable?  Should have stuck the person in a taxi - it's not difficult is it?!

Eh? When did this happen? An unscheduled stop en-route maybe, but I find it hard to believe that a scheduled service would go so far off route to pick someone up. Is it not more likely that the diversion was because of engineering works or a short notice closure of the line between Gloucester and Bristol? And 6 full carriages? What were you travelling in?

Easy mistake to make if you are in 'coach F' I'd have thought...

Paul

Regarding cleanliness of Cross Country trains vs FGW, I would definitely say, in my experience, that Voyagers are the dirtiest. The state of the interiors is awful.

Perhaps getting away from Newquay but as for cleanliness of trains, I have to say that when I board a West of England service at Paddington they are 99.9% time extremely well turned out! What they are like when I alight at Exeter is altogether a different story!  I would love to see the state of some of the clientele's homes, based on their behavior on board!! And yes, I would imagine by the time they get to Cornwall they are pretty rank but blame that on the people that use them!!!!  And dont even get me onto cross country - even when a voyager is alledgedly clean they still stink!!! 

This should probably be in "the lighter side" (No offence meant) but what is/are the cause(s) of this gulf in cleanliness?


1) Voyager users are dirtier people than FGW users.
2) Voyager cleaners are worse at their job than FGW cleaners.
3) AXC don't employ enough cleaners/don't give their cleaners enough time to do the job in comparison to FGW.
4) Voyagers aren't cleaned as regularly/thoroughly?
5) Voyagers attract and/or generate more dirt than FGW HSTs because they are the devil's invention (cleanliness being next to godliness)
6) The DFT
7) The European Union/all political parties except UKIP
8 Gordon Brown
9) Northerners/the youth of today/the abolition of national service?
10) ...
Match the poster to the answer  ;) !
 

you been on a clean voyager.... was it during a factory tour when it was built?? in my experiance fgw cleaning is in devon atleast second to none... xc  on the other hand is just none existant

FGW Trains are so much better/cleaner than XC Voyagers... My biggest gripe with XC Voyagers is the obnoxious toilet smell/cleaniless... Especially when the train has come from somewhere like Aberdeen... Just don't go in there if you value a good oxygen supply...!!!!!!!! :-X

I could rant on and on and on about XC so please don't tempt me... ;)

In their defence I do have to say their HST's are very good... But where's the bluddy WiFi and Hot Food in First Class they promised...?! >:(

Any objections if I split off a separate "XC voyagers vs. FGW HSTs" or "why Voyagers suck" thread from this and drop it into "The Lighter Side"? As various posters have pointed out already, we've strayed some way from the topic of the Newquay branch!

Seriously?  I take it you would prefer a 142 with it's automatic doors over a FGW HST?

Are 142s not air operated doors like most other BR 2nd gen DMUs?

Thank you  ;)..... although I think the point was one had to turn a handle to open a door on a 30-40yr old train... disgraceful  :D

The seats on FGW always look awfully dirty because they show up all the fluff, hair and gunk.  I don't think they get vacuumed.

You're obviously travelling on different FGW trains from me - the HSTs are almost invariably immaculate, and considering the heavy use the local fleet gets in general that's pretty good too. All sets get a thorough clean, including vacuuming the seats, every night as far as I'm aware.

There are a lot of reasons why I dislike the Voyagers, such as:
those crap internal electric doors that sometimes don't work, sometimes keep trying to close themselves, and you need to go through a thousand of them to get into the next carriage
the useless standard class seat trays, at least for laptops
the windows block GSM signals quite effectively, but not 3G
the toilet smell
no catering (I only ever travel to/from Plymouth into Cornwall)
those reservation screen that take ages to scroll around

Why I like the XC service in general:
it runs dead on time pretty much all the time, FGW seem to enjoy being a few minutes late on either side of the journey a lot

Can someone tell me what the purpose is of the panel between the seats is? It has headphone jacks, volume/channel buttons, but if you plug anything in there's no sound.

Just to be different.. I actually prefer the XC HST sets above FGW hsts or XC voyagers.

When the Cross Country franchise was operated by Virgin, they offered a selection of music channels and radio stations via these jack sockets. When Arriva took over the service was removed.

Virgin had a similar service on their Pendolino and West Coast Voyager fleet but they have replaced this with Wi-Fi. Arriva promised us Wi-Fi on their XC services in November 2007, but as yet, nothing.

ok - I've travelled on a vomiter from reading to birmingham on a few occasions now and whilst they are not as good as FGW they are not that bad

They vibrate - but no worse than a 158 or 175.

The only issue is the smell of the toilets......and they are not as comfy as a FGW HST but are no less comfy than a pendolino or any other DMU

There management of First Class between Plymouth & Bristol is as follows IME...

The hosts are told to serve a trolley service to Standard Class before First Class Passengers as it makes them revenue on catering, yet on their HST's if you go to their little catering galley ask them for a coffee, they won't give you one but tell you you can buy one >:( (Why the heck would I pay for a coffee that effectively tastes like Water when i'm ment to get a free one on my ticket) However they will let you have some biccys :)

But in their defence, I will say that they will occasionally give you one, but always think they are doing you a favour by doing that... Well i'm sorry, i've paid for FC, so I would like my free coffee thanks ;)

(I'm not ment to sound arrogant or snobby there, I just get mift when I know i'm entitled to something but it is not delivered)

Whereas with FGW, If you want a cuppa or some biccys, the staff are more than happy to serve it too you... either from the trolley or Buffet... and although FGW do have time keeping issues, I've not had anything within the last 3 months that has put me into a negative situation, whereas (as I may have ranted before) the 14:44 from Bristol - Plymouth is hardly ever on time and has made me miss crucial meeting... >:(

Cough.

 :-X

I'll get my coat.

This route has had a lot of complaints recently due to small trians and big overcrowding. I think its prob the overcrowding issue that makes people hate these trains!

I might add that XC usually has a lot of Station dwell/make-up time at Birmingham & Bristol which brings a lot of their trains back on-time by Taunton/Exeter - whereas FGW has very little generally.

Also with FGW showing record on-time results, these delays cannot be too bad.

And Taunton, and Exeter etc

The XC HSTs always make me laugh, they often sit in Exeter and Taunton for 5 minutes.

I know there is the standard 2 minutes at Taunton and Exeter, but for some reason there seems to be a longer journey time allocated from Tiverton to Exeter than is required - if the driver puts his foot down (which they normally do  :D)

Indeed, a 2+7 HST can easily do Tiverton - Exeter in 11 minutes, and yet XC allow 16!!

Interestingly enough... When Virgin were in charge... on a good day, you could do Bristol Temple Meads > Newcastle in 4hrs 55mins... Now with AXC in charge... it now takes a minimum of 6 hours >:(

I tend to avoid XC now like the plague simply because they are rather unreliable... I would rather sit on a Mk3/Mk4 from Kings Cross than go via BHM... and to be honest, Grand Central get me closer to where i normally need to go for such reasonable prices that even though it takes longer, is a much more pleasent journey than sitting on a Voyager drinking Tea/Coffee out of a cardboard cup >:(

XC Looked like they were going to transform the XC Route and IMHO it has turned into a bit of a shambles and the majority of things they planned in 2007 still have not yet been delivered...!

Really? The next few direct trains are 5h01, 5h07, 5h04.

Maybe you've been looking up engineering diversions or something...

Paul

In which case I retract my previous statement... ;) The only reason I was saying 6 hours was when I last did my Newcastle run it was 6hrs 15m there (train arrived 5 mins early) and 6hrs on the way back... so whether it was engineering works i don't know... still took too long :P

Those XC HST sets are actually quite nice. I do prefer their 1st class seating to FGW's slippy leather.

However Arriva are apparently withdrawing two of the five sets from the December TT change, according to the Fact Compiler's Railway Eye (http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/search/label/Arriva%20Cross%20Country) blog.

I suspect I'm in a minority of one, but I really don't like those XC HSTs in standard class - cruddy legroom in the airline seating (way less than an FGW refurb), flip-down tables that were drooping beyond horizontal so nothing would stay on them, and this was in a set that had been in traffic for only a few months!

A rumour that XC have been denying for some weeks now.

Yeah I was in coach F - but I suppose there could have been only 5 carriages.  They eventually got a bit emptier through Plymouth, Snozzle and Truro.  It was in October 2008 - the only announcement made was that we had to go to Newport to pick up a member of staff, and that no passengers should get on or off whilst there.  The whole trip took AGES, but at least I can now say I've been to Wales!

More recently I was on the FGW Plymouth to Penzance service on Saturday (5th December, 2009), and the train was in a sorry state.  Litter absolutely everywhere, I don't think they'd sent a cleaner down after Paddington, bins overflowing, no water left in toilets, so bogs full of......, and no chance to wash your hands - good infection control that!  And you still have to stick your hand out of the window to open the door, 21st century or what?!  Not a single ticket collector between Plymouth and Penzance - they probably reckon the ticket barrier was in use at Plymouth, but as usual it wasn't.

...err no it's not.  Deliberately travelling without a ticket in order to aviod paying for your journey is a crime for which I hope you get caught.  Those of us with tickets end up subsidising folk like you.

Edit by GrahamE to add comment ... This response and the subsequent ones now look a little out of place, as the original poster has updated his/her post.  The original post, as quoted here by Tim, appeared to incite ticketless (and illegal) travel, which is something that this forum does not encourage, condone or facilitate.

I have to echo Tim's comment dooby13. This forum is not here to advertise or condone fare evasion. By all means gripe about the lack of ticket checking and working barriers but don't use the forum to 'spread the word' suggesting others break the law. Fare evasion is a criminal matter that could have serious consequences if you are caught and prosecuted. A criminal record could make finding employment more difficult, you could be named and shamed, you could be refused a visa to travel to certain countries and you could be banned from the rail network.

Talking of criminals (and as a fare paying passenger myself who is all too frequently angered at seeing people openly getting away with it at my expense, I couldn't agree more with what others have said up there) - it's encouraging to note that British Transport Police are starting to take a firmer line on the matter:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Tasers-British-Transport-Police-In-Three-Cities-To-Carry-Stun-Guns-In-Three-Month-Trial/Article/200912215495980?f=rss

Shocking!  :o ;)

One step closer to guards having them and fare evasion being wiped out  ;D

TOCs can barely manage to issue guards with 'grippers', what chance tasers?

"If you don't pay your fare I'm going to stab you in the thigh with my biro" ;D

Or turn around quickly with my Avantix ;D

With some of the "people" I've seen guards have to deal with, I welcome this idea.

More recently I was on the FGW Plymouth to Penzance service on Saturday (5th December, 2009), and the train was in a sorry state.  Litter absolutely everywhere, I don't think they'd sent a cleaner down after Paddington, bins overflowing, no water left in toilets, so bogs full of......, and no chance to wash your hands - good infection control that!  And you still have to stick your hand out of the window to open the door, 21st century or what?!  Not a single ticket collector between Plymouth and Penzance - they probably reckon the ticket barrier was in use at Plymouth, but as usual it wasn't.  Next time I won't bother buying a ticket, as I've never seen ticket collector on a Plymouth to Penzance FGW train after 5pm - spread the word, IT'S FREE FOR EVERYONE.
[/quote]Some HSTs between Plymouth and Penzance particularly the ones used by the hoardes of Cornish commuters to/from Plymouth are so grossly overcrowded that it is virtually impossible to check tickets anyway.The up 0844 and 1000 Penzance/Paddington and down 1306 and 1406 Paddington/Penzance HSTs are regularly delayed because of overcrowding between Plymouth and Penzance.Last Saturday I arrived in Plymouth from Exeter on the 1406 which had plenty of spares seats available only to be greeted by a mass of humanity waiting to return to Cornwall.The train left full and standing not just in the vestibules but end to end in the main gangway of every coach including the buffet coach.Absolutely no chance of adequate ticket checks under these circumstances.

Indeed, the last Saturday of November saw the train (1306 pad pnz) sit there for a whopping 9 minutes as passengers were forced on. In the end platform staff declared "no more"!

This situation has gone on for far too long and FGW seems powerless to do anything about as it gets ever more desperate finacially as the year on year franchise premium increases kick in while the Dft simply ignores the far south wests rail woes as it has bigger fish to fry.

If the ticket conductors can't be bothered to go down the train to collect tickets, what do they expect?  What exactly are the staff doing the whole way from Plymouth to Penzance if they aren't cleaning the place or collecting tickets?

dooby, The staff are either busy doing something else or they are lazy and can't be bothered.  We can argue over which one it is until the cows come home(I expect it is a bit of both - guards do have other more important safety critical roles over and above checking tickets but the variation in checks between different staff members leads me to belive that their is also a motivation/moral/management issue with some Guards that needs to be addressed).

But that is a completely separate issue to fare evasion.  Just because your ticket isn't checked doesn't mean that you don't need to buy one. 

I always do buy a ticket, more because I actually want a seat reservation on these busy trains than anything else, and it also irks me when hundreds of people don't bother to buy one.

I understand staffing issues, but I really think these conductors need a more set ticket checking routine.  People always moan about people travelling without tickets, rail companies not having enough money etc., but as long as they aren't checked, they will continue to do so.

I am not condoning fare dodging, and I don't do it myself - but I do often have to buy tickets on the train as St Ives ticket office is closed during winter, and St Erth does limited hours at weekends, so I therefore often get to Truro or Penzance for free when the conductor is nowhere to be seen.

Anyway, back to the original post, I choose Arriva X-Country Voyagers, as the ones I've been on are cleaner, warmer, have more adequate ticket checks, and you don't have to stick your hand out the window to get out of the train.

On HSTs, I think revenue can be a problem due to the number of stations requiring SDO (selective door opening), and ensuring announcements are made and the Guard is in the right place to open the doors can make revenue look like it's being ignored.  Also on a 8 car HST, how do you know that no revenue is being carried out just because the TM doesn't get to your coach?  I understand the impression this can give to customers, but does not mean that a Guard does not care or is lazy - perhaps the question should be with potentially so much fare evasion going on, why are FGW not hiring/diagramming more Revenue Protection Staff onto these trains?

For example, I can have the best intentions of checking a whole 2 car train between Exeter St Thomas & Starcross, but on some days i'll be asked more questions about connections etc, be asked for a strange rover type thing (Devon Metro  ::) ;D), or people fiddle around with a look of shock that you actually want to take money off them or see a ticket and I may only make it half way through... Other days I can walk straight through, and do the whole train and still have time to make it back through again before we arrive.  For a passenger who has travelled from St. James Park - Starcross, am I being lazy one day and not the other if they happen to be in the front half and have their ticket checked only once?

(St. James Park is a small 'station' just on the run into Exeter Central where tickets are rarely/never done between St.James-Exeter Central-St Davids-St Thomas due to the few seconds between each stop.)

I understand that there are particular problems with checking tickets when stations are very close and use SDO.  Surely extra staff is the solution here.  You wouldn't need very many and they wouldn't need to be on the train for the whole jounrey but could just travel back and forth on a short stretch of problem line.

In fairness to Donkey Guard, my comments suggesting that some Guards are lazy isn't based on knowledge of devon and Cornwall but on the HSTs between Bath and London which are the ones I use regularly.

Many years ago when I started the commute, you could still buy full price tickets on the train.  I reckon that in the morning trip a single Guard managed to check all tickets between Bath and Reading every single day even though he had to sell 5 to 10 tickets per coach (and presumably earn a good bit of commission for this) .  The only way you could have avoided a ticket check would have been to hide in a large piece of luggage as the TM passed.  Nowadays the policy is Buy before you board so the TM's job ought to be easier, but my ticket only gets checked perhaps 30% of the time. 

I try not to be cynical, but I suspect that by installing gates you end up with most passengers having a ticket of some kind (at least on the early monring trains to town) so that an on-board check at that time of the morning doesn't result in a good commission being earnt but in a TM finding almost everyone has a valid ticket and having to argue the toss with a couple of idiots who are on the wrong train.   The incentives haved changed so so has the staff behaviour.

I should have also clarified that I am not defending all Guards out there, as I have no doubt there are some lazy guards out there.

However, perhaps your reasoning as to the change in incentives also explains why FGW are not hiring more Revenue Protection staff as 'Buy before you board' probably means that RP staff do not "pay for themselves" as much as they used to.  However, I agree those already employed could potentially be better diagrammed to cover problem areas.

How can you expect a guard to do tickets if the train is packed?

Surely is his / her job to at least try, between some stations anyway.  All packed Plymouth to PZ trains ease off by St Austell and Truro, so the guard still has at least half an hour to check the rest of them, but is nowhere to be seen.  Don't get me wrong, there are some excellent, vigilant, friendly and informative guards on FGW, but in my experience, on evening trains from Plymouth to Penzance, they are extremely few and far between.

It's much easier to use a HST than a Voyager when you have a push-chair and children. I assume this goes for disabled passengers too.

Most passengers and nearly all staff who work voyagers hate the things with a passion,... they are noisy, smelly, too small .uncomfortable in stnd class, have no sensible catering facilities have a joke of a bike rack and are begining to fall to bits,...they are basically a crap train foisted on us by old beardie.
And for your information dooby 13 ...FGW HSTs are litter picked at every terminal station and are throughly cleaned throught the night by the cleaners who work really hard to clean up the sometimes absolutely disgusting mess left by some moronic passengers who seem to delight in redecorating the toilets.

All I ask is that someone goes down the train every so often with a bin bag to pick up some of the rubbish, it's a sad day when you have to clear the seats of junk before you can sit on them.  In addition, it would be helpful if they could replace the bin bags in the actual bins, as they are often overflowing.  They manage it on Vietnam Railways, but not Worst Late Western.

The rubbish is only there becuase your fellow 'customers' (morons) leave it there in the first place instead of using the Bins provided...........

In experiance, the bin bags are changed usually unless time is not availiable to do so.....

Worst Late Western? Here's me thinking we're approaching 2010, not back in 2006. If Vietnam Railways are so good at keeping their trains clean then good luck to them. Grossly overstaffed communist state run railways are not what we are about here in the UK, despite Bob Crow's best efforts. You are hardly comparing like for like; even our 'worst' local trains have upholstered seats and our mainlines are all double track with superior rolling stock and speed.

Good luck to FGW, I've seen some marked improvements in their timekeeping, but I don't think they'll ever shift that reputation or name.

I'll be on them this weekend and look forward to my upholstered seat, but not sticking my arm out the door in order to get out of the train. 2009 indeed  ;D

If having to open the door for yourself is such a big deal then may I suggest you stand behind someone else and let them expend all the effort, it's such a taxing chore obviously. ::)

Whats the obsession with making everything technological these days?

Cars with digital speedos are far more likely to malfunction, compared to you standard needle. Whilst providing no obvious benefits.

Same applies to doors, in my house the doors are hand operated. Perhaps I should install automatic with push operated buttons, perhaps I could install a Star Trek whoosh sound affect at the same time.

I think the HSE would have something to say if anyone suggested a new build of slam door stock even with CDL.

I do agree, however slam doors work, there is no fussing about until the passengers get involved.

Many a true word is spoken in jest ...

Suggestion - a new build of 3 car d.m.u.s, top speed 80 m.p.h, allowed to carry passengers only on lines where speeds in excess of 100 m.p.h were not permitted.  Slam door, single glazed, no a/c but top opening windows. Sturdy but effective materials ... groups of 4 seats around tables.  Similarities to previous generations not entirely co-incidental (noting posts here that loco-and-coaches suprises people but they find them more comfortable).

With the "100 m.p.h." stipulation, you're looking at a build that will allow longer trains, hopefully much cheaper per carriage.   Services your could run with them ... west of Exeter, Exmouth to Barnstaple, Portishead to Severn Beach and Thornbury, Chippenham to Southampton or Waterloo via Salisbury, Cardiff Valleys, West of Swansea ...