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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: inspector_blakey on November 30, 2009, 19:25:57



Title: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: inspector_blakey on November 30, 2009, 19:25:57
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/30/east-coast-railway-fares (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/30/east-coast-railway-fares)

The man is a machine... Among other things he's proposing fare cuts to increase "bums on seats" and the introduction of complimentary meals for first class passengers!


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: Btline on November 30, 2009, 22:55:28
Exactly, do what VT do! Cut stops, make First Class value for money!


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: devon_metro on December 01, 2009, 16:09:08
I think what Adonis is proposing is far less drastic than what btline suggests, cutting stops is not that great, we have a shortage of rolling stock in this country so if we cut the trains that actually have the capacity (because they are empty off peak) what on earth are we achieving.

Off peak there is far less demand for "fast" services skipping every stop.

Re First Class, i'm sure FallenAngel might agree - its a premium service, this it shouldn't be value for money compared to your average standard class fare. It's all very well filling up the seats, however I suspect many genuine First Class passengers will take their custom onto the road if it was full up and full of "plebs"!


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Lee on December 01, 2009, 16:18:30
Is Adonis beginning to sound like a man who could get a taste for running rail services directly?

Just a thought...


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: matt473 on December 01, 2009, 17:07:12
Exactly, do what VT do! Cut stops, make First Class value for money!

It is not as simple as youmake seem for many reasons. Virgin cutting stops has left many stations now with what is arguably a much poorer service as a result of cutting the number of stations served. To make up for services no longer calling at the stations you need to create new services which is what happened with LM but the ECML does not have spare capcity for this. Virgin can only aford to do what it does as a result of the billions invested in the WCML which in my opinion is fine if you live in Scotland, London, Manchester, Liverpool and Brmingham but crap if you live anywhere else.

I suggest you look at how many services were cut and how many places lost out because of Virgins new timetable before making such claims as it is not as easy as it seems


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Timmer on December 01, 2009, 17:29:57
Is Adonis beginning to sound like a man who could get a taste for running rail services directly?

Just a thought...
A good thought at that Lee but sadly I read today somewhere that if the Tories get into power he would probably be offered a role back in education where he was before moving to DFT.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: paul7575 on December 01, 2009, 17:32:09
Getting away from fares for a moment, how could NXEC or GNER before them speed up the timetable? A quick glance at the mass of correspondence so far about the new ECML timetable for next December (on the ORR website) would suggest that the timetable is written by Network Rail, to meet requirements set by DfT.

So Adonis saying that he can improve speeds is already down to DfT and NR to sort out, exactly the same as in the past.  As a recent example, the current WCML timetable was written by DfT as well...

Paul


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Lee on December 01, 2009, 17:57:38
I remember only too well responding to the DfT's WCML Timetable Consultation...

It was swings and roundabouts to a certain extent. You had the well-publicised cases of stations such as Nuneaton losing out, and also smaller stations such as Polesworth, Norton Bridge, Wedgwood, Barlaston and Etruria which either have no rail service at all or an unusable one (in Polesworth's case) as a result of the WCML saga.

On the other hand places such as Atherstone and Stone saw the opposite effect, with dreadful/non-existent services ultimately turning into hourly ones.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: Btline on December 02, 2009, 17:03:09
Express services are always going to take priority.

It is a shame about the loss of Etruria etc, but I expect the money required for extra tracks for stopping trains was not worth it.

The end result - much faster trains from the West Midlands, North Wales, North West and Scotland HUGLEY overpowers the losses. The next step should be 2 tph to Liverpool (the new one stopping at Nuneton), and a few extra Voyagers to places like Blackpool, Morecambe, Windermere, Barrow - if demand exists (perhaps summer only)., These should call at Tamworth.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: matt473 on December 02, 2009, 17:13:01
If faster trains to certain places outweighs the loss of local services, then would you care to explain to people who live in these areas why they should take lower priorityover htose in larger cities? I am not saying we should not have express services, in fact I would love to have many more of them, but not at the expense of local services. I'm guessing you may not live in a rural area as such or even one with a poor service otherwise you may be more understanding of the social costs of removing local services which usually far outweigh the financial benefits of faster services.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: Btline on December 03, 2009, 11:59:58
Because far more passengers will benefit with lots of expresses and few locals than vice versa! Think about it.

We may not like it, but it's a fact. The priority is getting the balance right. Perhaps the WCML went a bit over the line, but the results for the millions of InterCity passengers is great!


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 03, 2009, 12:09:51
The end result - much faster trains from the West Midlands, North Wales, North West and Scotland HUGLEY overpowers the losses. The next step should be 2 tph to Liverpool (the new one stopping at Nuneton), and a few extra Voyagers to places like Blackpool, Morecambe, Windermere, Barrow - if demand exists (perhaps summer only)., These should call at Tamworth.

I agree that the Trent Valley stations should have a better service. From a non-experts view it seems a bit over-the-top to have an hourly Chester service throughout the day (occasionally continuing to either Bangor or Holyhead) which stops at Milton Keynes and Crewe only, operated by a Voyager. When I saw a lunchtime service at Milton Keynes the other month it was probably less than a third full - perhaps a stop at Nuneaton should be considered for these trains? I know pathing is tight, but Nuneaton now has a much worse service than it used to.

If a second hourly off-peak service was introduced for Liverpool (with Manchester and Birmingham now getting 3tph, you could argue 2tph to Liverpool would be suitable for a city of its size) then perhaps a stop at Nuneaton could indeed be added on an hourly basis. That could then allow an alternate stop at Tamworth and Lichfield on the Chester services to give a two-hourly fast London service from those stations too.

It's about getting a balance, and I think Virgin have swayed a little to far towards the 'fast train' side of the argument, as Btline has said, and have neglected certain mid-sized towns in the Trent Valley area. The population for Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield combined is getting on for 200k and all three offer connectional opportunities onto local regional services. The changes I've outlined above would help to readdress yje balance - without compromising the fast services now being enjoyed by the larger settlements.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Tim on December 03, 2009, 12:16:19
There is an question of balance here between local and "intercity", but we need to remember that it is the Intercity services that make the money.  The government's policy of increasing the share of rail's costs to be paid by the passenger means that fares will go up.  I disagree with that policy but it looks like it is here to stay.  

There is a limit to how much you can charge for a local service in a pacer or overcrowded commuter train.  The only way you can begin to justify charging the high intercity fares that the current railway ecconomics model requires is by attracting better off passengers and business people, and for them things like good timings, good catering, decent first class, etc really matter.  

Industry Insider makes a good point about frequency to Liverpool versus that to Manchester.  Barry Doe, certainly thinks that Liverpool deserves better and he places the blame for the one per hour speciifcation firmly at the door of the DfT, saying that Virgin would have prefered to run 2tph. 

One wonders how things will charge when the GWML gets electrified (and when in cab signalling allows the Super Express trains to be sped up to 140 mph).  At the moment FGW HSTs stop at far to many places.  Will there be a temptation to speed up timings to maximise the "sparks effect"?


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: Lee on December 03, 2009, 12:17:51
It is a shame about the loss of Etruria etc, but I expect the money required for extra tracks for stopping trains was not worth it.

The closure of Etruria was actually implemented so that the tracks could be realigned allowing for higher speeds and shorter journey times. It has been argued that Etruria was subjected to a systematic "closure by stealth" plan in order to justify this.

Other events that some consider to be rather dodgy were the removal of footbridges at Norton Bridge and Polesworth. This resulted in one of the platforms becoming inaccessable at Polesworth and the entire station becoming inaccessable at Norton Bridge.

So yes, I guess there is a body of opinion that would suggest that "the WCML went a bit over the line"...

Returning to my earlier suggestion...

Is Adonis beginning to sound like a man who could get a taste for running rail services directly?

Just a thought...

Interesting article from Christian Wolmar - http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2009/12/adonis-is-an-object-lesson-of-how-to-get-things-done/

Quote from: Christian Wolmar
Of course he maintains the line that it is impossible for the government to retain the franchise beyond the two year time frame he has imposed and says he has no desire to do so, but there was a distinct feeling on the inaugural train that Adonis was rather enjoying running trains.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: devon_metro on December 03, 2009, 13:56:09
Because far more passengers will benefit with lots of expresses and few locals than vice versa! Think about it.

We may not like it, but it's a fact.

No, it really isn't!

Not everybody wants to go to London.

Take the 0540 & 0650 Penzance - London, both stop at Westbury. There is considerable demand to and from here for onward connections to Wiltshire and the South Coast. It is not a fact that more passengers would benefit from a 5 minute time saving by not stopping here as far more will be disadvantaged as they have to dogleg around Bristol and would probably drive.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: Btline on December 03, 2009, 23:03:31
VT planned 2 tph to Liverpool, but the loss of a Pendolino scuppered this.

I agree that a new Liverpool train should stop at Nuneaton, and the Chester train to make calls to Tamworth/Litchfield every so often.

Quote
Not everybody wants to go to London.

Most people do.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: matt473 on December 04, 2009, 13:22:14
Quote
Not everybody wants to go to London.

Most people do.

Pf that was the case then the likes of Portsmouth-Cardiff, Norwich-Liverpool and Cross country routes would not have the overcrowding it currently does. People may wish to use to travel to work or for leisure purpouses and I highly doubt everyone seeks to go London. In fact you may be surprised how many people will avoid London at all costs


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Lee on December 04, 2009, 17:19:57
From the Peterborough Evening Telegraph: (http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/Plans-Peterborough-train-services-could.5883545.jp)

Quote from: Peterborough Evening Telegraph
Peterborough train services could be cut

Controversial plans to speed up train services could cut Peterborough out of routes between Edinburgh and London, according to a travel campaign group.

Travel pressure group Passenger Focus has claimed that a new timetable being produced for the East Coast Main Line could cut services to the city by up to half.

The recently nationalised East Coast train operators will switch to a new timetable for services to London King's Cross, the East Midlands, Yorkshire, the North East and Scotland in December 2010.

Passenger Focus manager Guy Dangerfield said: "For Peterborough passengers there will be fewer evening trains from King's Cross.

"There will also be only five trains to Scotland instead of the current 12 - and they would take longer.

"It is not clear to us that the timetable as drafted would strike an appropriate balance between the needs of end-to-end passengers and those making long-distance journeys.

"We are pleased that after hearing about Passenger Focus' fears, East Coast will now be holding a proper consultation in January. Anyone with concerns about the changes should make sure they respond to next month's consultation."

Operators claim that some initial discussions on the timetable changes took place before the service was nationalised on November 14.

A spokesman said: "We will be making further consultations in January and including customers, as we want to listen to all opinions.

"A new East Coast timetable is being developed by the rail industry to deliver more services and more seats across this busy route.

"Our aim is to ensure that Peterborough is served at least by a regular two-hourly direct service to Scotland, with extra intermediate services available through a platform change at York."

The timetable will be created by National Rail after hearing recommendations from East Coast Main Line and the Government's Department for Transport and East Coast.

A Network Rail spokesman said: "As custodians of the railway, our role is to provide advice on the availability of train paths and to improve access for train and freight operators. Passenger timetables are devised by government and by train operators."


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Lee on December 23, 2009, 18:08:00
FOI request for information relating to the nationalisation and reorganisation of the East Coast Mainline - http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi/responses/2009/dec/foi5518/


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Lee on December 23, 2009, 19:28:23
Article relevant to the Nuneaton section of this topic:

From the Coventry Telegraph: (http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/north-warwickshire-news/2009/12/23/fast-off-peak-train-services-to-nuneaton-not-happening-92746-25457362/)

Quote from: Coventry Telegraph
Fast off-peak train services to Nuneaton not happening

A call to bring back fast off-peak train services to Nuneaton has fallen on deaf ears.

Local politician Marcus Jones says he is disappointed with the response from Transport Minister Andrew Adonis over concerns that Nuneaton now has a second-rate rail link to the capital and the north.

Mr Jones, a borough councillor and Tory Parliamentary candidate, said: ^The reply from the minister^s department said ^the current time table was designed to maximise earnings and serve stations which have potential for passenger and revenue growth^.

"No mention was made of the government support for services to Nuneaton and no acknowledgement of the importance of fast services to our town.

^I did not expect an immediate solution, but I did expect an acknowledgement of the importance of fast rail services to Nuneaton and a more positive response.

"The poor response I received shows the disregard and contempt that this government is showing to Nuneaton.^


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Lee on December 29, 2009, 15:21:52
FOI request for information effecting the transfer or the provisions therin relevant to the transfer from National Express East Coast Limited to East Coast Main Line - http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi/responses/2009/dec/foi5944/


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 31, 2010, 00:26:40
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/8594197.stm):

Quote
Bid for new Coventry and Nuneaton rail link submitted

A bid for ^15.8m funding for a proposed new rail link between Coventry and Nuneaton has been sent to the Department for Transport (DfT).
The proposal includes a new station at Bermuda Park in Nuneaton, a new bay platform at Coventry station and a longer platform at Bedworth.
On match or major event days trains could go between Coventry and the Ricoh Arena every 15 minutes.
Coventry City Council is aiming to have final approval by early 2012.
The authority said it would continue to work with its partners to add more detail after receiving approval for this outline bid.
It added the final detailed bid would then be submitted to the DfT again for full funding approval, aiming for a final approval in late 2011 or early 2012.


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 16, 2010, 02:12:34
I agree that the Trent Valley stations should have a better service. From a non-experts view it seems a bit over-the-top to have an hourly Chester service throughout the day (occasionally continuing to either Bangor or Holyhead) which stops at Milton Keynes and Crewe only, operated by a Voyager. When I saw a lunchtime service at Milton Keynes the other month it was probably less than a third full - perhaps a stop at Nuneaton should be considered for these trains? I know pathing is tight, but Nuneaton now has a much worse service than it used to.

If a second hourly off-peak service was introduced for Liverpool (with Manchester and Birmingham now getting 3tph, you could argue 2tph to Liverpool would be suitable for a city of its size) then perhaps a stop at Nuneaton could indeed be added on an hourly basis. That could then allow an alternate stop at Tamworth and Lichfield on the Chester services to give a two-hourly fast London service from those stations too.

It's about getting a balance, and I think Virgin have swayed a little to far towards the 'fast train' side of the argument, as Btline has said, and have neglected certain mid-sized towns in the Trent Valley area. The population for Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield combined is getting on for 200k and all three offer connectional opportunities onto local regional services. The changes I've outlined above would help to readdress the balance - without compromising the fast services now being enjoyed by the larger settlements.

Well, although Virgin are showing few signs of adopting my suggestion above, it does appear that Tamworth, Lichfield and Nuneaton (as well as a whole host of other stations) are possibly going to get a much better service through to London, with track access applications submitted from both Grand Central and Alliance Trains to stop at those stations from 2012/13.  Alliance trains using the new Chinese 'Polaris' units and Grand Central looking at Class 67's Mk 3's and a DVT (presumably scheduled for the DVT's maximum speed of 110mph?).

Well worth reading through their applications as they make interesting reading.  Who knows what will come of them...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-alliance-rail-application-form-oct2010.pdf (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-alliance-rail-application-form-oct2010.pdf)

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-grand-central-wcml-application-form.pdf (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-grand-central-wcml-application-form.pdf)


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: paul7575 on November 16, 2010, 11:51:28
Well, although Virgin are showing few signs of adopting my suggestion above, it does appear that Tamworth, Lichfield and Nuneaton (as well as a whole host of other stations) are possibly going to get a much better service through to London, with track access applications submitted from both Grand Central and Alliance Trains to stop at those stations from 2012/13.  Alliance trains using the new Chinese 'Polaris' units and Grand Central looking at Class 67's Mk 3's and a DVT (presumably scheduled for the DVT's maximum speed of 110mph?).

Well worth reading through their applications as they make interesting reading.  Who knows what will come of them...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-alliance-rail-application-form-oct2010.pdf (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-alliance-rail-application-form-oct2010.pdf)

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-grand-central-wcml-application-form.pdf (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-grand-central-wcml-application-form.pdf)

There is a problem though, in that DfT have also applied on behalf the next WCML franchisee.  ORR have stated there is only one off peak path per hour available, and Dft hold all the cards as they will soon take delivery of the extra Pendolinos needed for, and capable of using the paths.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-dft-application-form-221010.pdf (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-dft-application-form-221010.pdf)

The two Open Access applications need to be read in context of what the DfT want the franchised TOC to do, I think...

Paul


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 16, 2010, 12:05:42
Yep, cheers for that link - three different operators fighting over a direct link from Blackpool to London.  Imagine that...


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guar
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 02, 2011, 17:42:21
Who knows what will come of them...

Not much it turns out.  At least at this stage thanks to the ORR!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12623203 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-12623203)


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: paul7575 on March 02, 2011, 18:39:22
Here's the ORR report:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/wcml-orr-letter-020311.pdf

Not even the DfT have got everything they wanted...

Paul


Title: Re: Adonis pushes for cheaper, faster east coast railway service - from the Guardian
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 18, 2011, 11:32:13
Alliance are preparing to submit another bid, with a hoped-for introduction date of December 2013:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/business/business_news/8980024.New_bid_for_Euston_to_Bradford_train_link/?ref=rss (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/business/business_news/8980024.New_bid_for_Euston_to_Bradford_train_link/?ref=rss)



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