Great Western Coffee Shop

Looks like the long awaited turbo refresh will finally be starting in the new year.

http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/News/MostEmailed/968831/TrainFX-secures-1m-signage-deal-First-Great-Western/

I think the replacement of the CIS is actually on a different timescale to the Turbo refresh - though the two will probably be happening hand-in-hand at least for part of the programme.

Let's hope that recent frustrations about a barrage of announcements, voiced on here as well as elsewhere, will lead to a sensible system that doesn't go over the top, and actually provides information (biased on visual) rather than a whole raft of nonsense! Let's also hope its GPS enabled, but works much better than the unreliable Chiltern version!

As for the actual Turbo refresh. What would people like to see?

I've been careful to consider only those things that don't cost too much, as a 'proper' refresh like Chiltern did won't be feasible. Here's my own personal wishlist:

1) The basics: replacement carpets, laminate floors and seat covers along with a thorough clean of all interior fixture and fittings.
2) Tables and sockets provided in first class on both 165 and 166's.
3) Air Conditioning on 166's replaced with a system that works - and a solution to the ever opened windows.
4) Tables in most bays of 4 seats throughout standard class on 165 and 166's. There isn't too much space, so perhaps a fold-out design similar to the Class 168's on Chiltern?
5) For the drivers: A refurbished cab like on Chiltern's 165's as bits added on and falling off in the current cabs makes them look very untidy. Also, better noise insulation between the cab and passenger saloons.
6) Heating improvements to both cab and passenger areas - some sets take literally hours to warm up!
7) Windows on 165's thoroughly checked to make sure they close properly.
8) Toilets given a good Chiltern style refurb including the replacement of the hopeless plastic/china toilets in the 2-Car sets with stainless steel ones as on the rest of the fleet, and a hand-dryer that is actually capable of drying hands!
9) Replacement head and tail lights with LED style ones.

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work, suburban commuter, the extra standard accommodation would be usefully, table just take up space and fold up ones would last 5 minuets, airline arrangement like the HST refurb would give more seating.

New flooring - yes
Improved heating for 165 - yes
Improved locks on windows - yes
166 air con fix or total removal and opening windows fitted


Puts tin 'at on awaits flak from the Cotswolds  ::)

hopefully they don't install the depressing woman who announces at Maidenhead and many other Thames trains haunts...

"First.........greatwestern.."

It's no wonder the area seems so depressed listening to her all the time.

I take your point about 1st Class being largely academic on the Reading-Paddington stoppers, but the conundrum is that 1st Class is worthwhile on the longer journeys, but you can't by any means guarantee that 166's can be kept on those routes. The utilisation of the fleet is just too intense for that. Imagine how much of negative impact a Turbo replacement would have to a first class paying HST hopeful on the Cotswold Line if there wasn't even a first class section!

I think it's a red herring to say that it would give extra standard accommodation over and above a handful of seats, as little regard is given to 1st Class by passengers on the suburban services anyway. That's down to a combination of irregular ticket checks, the 'type' of person that travels (if I can be as politically correct as possibly), and no doubt some genuine confusion cause by the fact that the Heathrow Connect trains don't even have a first class section.

As for the tables, I meant slide out tables rather than fold-out ones (my error) which would be more robust, but as you say, more prone to vandalism.

As for First........greatwestern - don't forget that when the Thames Trains system was installed, there was no First Great Western, so I think they had to get her back in to record the word 'First' - that's why it sounds a little odd!

Toilets that dont stink in the summer

windows that stay shut

166 windows that can be locked

doors that close without the driver getting out and kicking them shut

corridor air doors that work

Air con that works

thermostats that work

new floors

new seats

no first class on 165 units

bits not falling off

new tables

All the above to be looked after!!! See no point in a 'refresh' if the units are left to rot.

rant over  ;D

...and others never warm up at all!

They may not be perfect, but actually I've said before that I think they're pretty good trains for reasonably short journeys (sub-one-hour). And much as people whinge about them now, at least FGW keeps them in reasonable order internally: window etching dealt with promptly, no internal graffiti, seat covers generally in decent nick etc. Some people seem to have very short memories - you don't have to go back too far to when Thames Trains was in control and the bulk of Cotswold services used Turbos; furthermore, this was when the Turbos were in their "90 mph litter bin" state.

I know I've dared to suggest before that the Turbos weren't 100% awful, only to be flamed by certain members of the Cotswold contingent...let's see what happens this time...  ;)

oh and ifo screens that work, both inside and and on the front of the train.

Can I add.......toilets with water in the bowl........

I just find it repulsive to do anything other than the bare minimum in one of those things with no water

Sorry to lower the tone but I dont see how they could flush properly

Don't want to lower the tone further but it rather depends on how hard the flush sucks...!

No water in aircraft toilets after all, but god help you if you manage to flush it whilst sitting down...

The new CIS system is incredibly advanced and a huge amount of investment and devlopment has gone into the project, i can assure you.

Just wish they;d fitted them to the West Fleet, or at least the 158s.

I'm pleased to hear that, Sprog. Though you'll forgive me for being a little tentative as huge amounts of investment and development doesn't necessarily mean it'll do what the average passenger wants, and anything that's incredibly advanced is prone to all sorts of teething troubles - just take a look at the over-engineered 180's for proof of that!

Well I hope a huge amount of investment will be going into the rest of the work on the Turbos - just very dubious that this is going to be the case when, unlike the HSTs and West dmus, the work is being done in house at Reading depot.

I'm sure the workforce there is more than capable, but it does make me sceptical about the scale of the work that will be done - especially when the few public pronouncements on it seem to have dried up months ago and those that there were seemed to be progressively less ambitious - there certainly won't be a new a/c system in the 166s - too difficult/expensive.


No, they are not perfect and many journeys made on the Cotswold Line are well over an hour, including Oxford-Worcester, never mind going on to Reading or London. I have no problem with them for my own regular 30-35 min journey, so long as they are not grossly overcrowded and I can get a seat well away from the doors, so I don't freeze to death at every station stop for half the year. Unfortunately, when they are used on the first off-peak, Network/Cotswold railcards valid, train from Worcestershire, after a 75-minute gap in the southbound service, they are crowded and extremely unpleasant to travel on - and it would seem that those awful, uncomfortable seats are going to stay post-refresh.

While FGW may be better at keeping them basically tidy than Thames was in its dying days, the fact remains they are fundamentally the same train that was delivered to NSE and I'm afraid it looks like FGW is going to miss the chance to actually rework them in a serious way to make them best suited for the second half of their lives - how about some vestibule doors to help keep the heat in the passenger saloons during the winter? Dream on...

And my memory does stretch back quite long enough thank you, even further than 20 months in fact, all the way to December 2004, when a certain train operator launched its new timetable with great fanfare, promising the following:

"There are many improvements for customers, including the majority of services between London Paddington and the Cotswolds being operated by new 125mph Adelante trains delivering InterCity quality and comfort to the route throughout the day."

Five years on, with yet more Turbos supplanting HSTs in a couple of weeks' time, we seem to be going back to the future in these parts, with InterCity quality a distant dream. When train operators come out with this kind of stuff, they really ought to keep their side of the bargain. I'm not expecting a great fanfare from FGW next month...

If it were the case that we were getting heavily overhauled Turbos, with 2+2 seating, more tables and the kind of things Insider suggests - which all sounds rather like, er, an Adelante - people might be marginally less hostile to them in these parts, but of course we are getting nothing of the sort, just the same trains we thought we had seen the back of, in much the same state they were in back in 2004 - though at least FGW use a seating material which doesn't seem to work loose after a couple of days' use, unlike the stuff used for the Thames overhauls.

1. Taken outside
2. Shot

But seriously... if Turbos are here to stay on the Cotswold Line, a small, dedicated fleet of 159/168-like refits; enduring a 165 all the way from Hereford (which I've done twice on recent Sundays) is No Fun At All. willc is spot on.

I used them regularly from 1999 onwards, so hardly the dying days of the franchise, and they were bin lorries on wheels then. The interiors (by then nearly a decade old) were left untouched and it seemed all TT could ever be arsed to do was stick their logos on the outside.


Poetic, but not accurate. I have in front of me the December 2009 timetable (and admittedly I'm making the assumption that the trains will run in practice as booked in the timetable).

It shows...
Weekdays, down: 9 x HST, 7 x Turbo.
Weekdays, up: 9 x HST, 8 x Turbo.
Saturdays, down: 6 x HST, 8 x Turbo.
Saturdays, up: 8 x HST, 7 x Turbo.
Sundays* down: 7 x HST, 5 x Turbo.
Sundays* up: 4 x HST, 7 x Turbo.

*until 31 Jan, from 04 Apr, in between it's a quagmire of replacement buses.

So, over the course of a week, I make that 115 services operated by HSTs and 102 operated by Turbos. If we define "majority" as more than half (since that's what it means) then a clear majority of services remain operated by HSTs and intercity service quality is not "a distant dream".

Apologies for the descent into somewhat extreme pedantry, but I wouldn't want to be accused of being inaccurate. FGW are actually still operating a majority of services using intercity-quality stock as they announced in 2004. It's certainly a lot more than the two return services a day (if my memory serves me correctly) that were operated by HSTs prior to then.

My question would be this - Is the refresh going to be done in such a way that takes into account that Turbos could be heading towards routes in my part of the world post-Electrification, such as Portsmouth-Cardiff?

Or will they need another one in a few years time?

Of course this is just the famous refresh that was announced at the franchise change.

Then when the 'remedial programme' was announced, the S of S at the time told us all that FGW were going to make early changes to the Turbo Fleet as part of their 'punishment'.  Which was just so much politician's spin because...

...then, absolutely nothing happened, and FGW said they hadn't agreed that at all, and the refresh would take place in due course, ie 2010 as planned.

Paul

 

Huh... you want to go on the Greenford line - they've got a guy on there on peak afternoon/evening services who sits in First Class by himself and always turns people away from the First Class area even when the rest of the train is full to bursting with people crammed into doorways etc - surely if the rest of the train is full to capacity he should let people in to FC - I don't even know why they run trains with FC compartments on the Greenford route, I'm sure nobody ever buys a First Class ticket for that route, it's hardly worth it!

And quite right he should!

...is one way of putting it. The other way of putting it is that 47% of intercity services are being operated by suburban trains.

It's pretty outrageous that even a single service between Paddington and Hereford is operated by what is, after all, suburban stock with 3+2 seating. I believe (from postings on uk.railway) this is the longest duration of any service diagrammed for 3+2 stock in Britain. Even FGW's 150s have been refitted with 2+2 seating.

Just do what Chiltern did!

And perhaps 2+2 seating and no First Class. But as a longer distance passenger, I don't know what the effects would be in the Thames Valley.

And then install Phil Sayer auto announcements! (Why isn't he on any train?) But keep them short, concise and not repeated. "Common sense" adverts (smoking, luggage, wet weather, safety, etc) should be BANNED, they are a waste of CO₂!

I thought it was patently clear to everybody on this forum that FGW will not be spending that kind of money, and moreover they can be excused for not spending that kind of money because of the vast difference in the length of the franchise and the time in which they would have to recoup the investment. Lovely though it might be, they're not about to chuck ^40m* or so at them - I believe ^6m has been earmarked for the job?

* An estimate based on the ^20m cost of doing less vehicles for Chiltern 5-years ago.

He should what? Keep First class to himself or let some of the passenger overspill in?

Not let them spill  in unless they pay for first class

But it's just ridiculous that people are packed into that train and he sits there on his own - it's not worth paying First Class fares as its such a short route - I know FGW can't help there being First Class compartments on the route as the trains are also used for other longer routes, but really, if people don't buy First Class tickets for that route they shouldn't bother operating trains with FC compartments on that route.

One day it could also lead to a nasty case of discrimination if a less able bodied person happens to be on the full train and wants a seat but nobody in the train gives up a seat (but one would hope there would be someone decent enough to do so).

Which is exactly my point the 165's do not need first class especially the 2 car units it is also questionable that the 3 car units and even the 166's need first class, the London & Reading suburban services need the space.  The first few rows of seats inside the vestibules need turn 90 deg to increase standing room. 

Lets make the TV commute more tolerable, no tables and no first class

But maybe if you knew you were going to get a seat in peace and quiet and not be crowded by underpaying scroates, more people WOULD pay for first class even on that line.

Do we know if the exteriors will be touched (ie repaint into blue, plus Vinyls, as per FCC 321s?)

Or will the outsides be left as they are now?

Luke

But why would the entire suburban fleet need to be upgraded to Chiltern standards?

If you restore the 8.58 Malvern->Paddington to be the HST it should be (plus the associated outbound working from Paddington), then the weekday Turbo service on the Cotswold Line can be covered by just two units.

I'm not under any illusions that just upgrading three DMUs is particularly economical; nor that there's magic money around for new builds; nor even that Chiltern have two 168s spare that they could loan out, which would be the ideal solution. But the FGW DMU fleet will be changing in future years, especially if the Main Line/Oxford electrification goes ahead. It's important to start asking now so that, when the decisions are made, the need for long-distance DMUs is taken into account.

(I'm playing a bit fast-and-loose with the diagramming; there's actually a -8 minute turnaround at Paddington between 14.29 and 14.21, so it doesn't quite work. But, conversely, there's some long gaps which could be shrunk too. Assuming that the service pattern could be adjusted to suit the stock, you get the general idea.)

Come out on the Cotswold Line some time and you will see why there is first class seating in Turbos - on certain trains if a 165 turns up instead of a 166, especially on the 8.58 from Malvern, then first class ticketholders from charlbury often find there are no seats left for them and have to ride in standard until Oxford, where they can gets seats in first in the extra set that couples on there - not exactly the service they are paying a hefty premium for. Even on the two-car sets you will find people transferring from an HST into the halts Turbo at Oxford. And if you want more standing room, fit 2+2 seats, like FGW's 150s, the 172s ordered for LM, etc.

Inspector, while you have done a lovely job counting what will be happening next month, you don't seem to have bothered counting up what we have now, never mind what was running from 2004 onwards, when it was an HST or Adelante on something like 80 per cent of the services, against barely more than 50 per cent from December, going by your tally.

At present on Saturdays, 13 out of 15 London-bound trains are HSTs and 11 out of 14 the other way - not exactly a favourable comparison with your figures above. Rather more InterCity quality and comfort there than there will be in a fortnight's time, while two HST weekday train pairs from last December's timetable were excised in February, again reducing a weighting previously heavily favouring HSTs.

And a good number of the weekday HST services that remain outside the peak are running the 'wrong' way compared with where the passenger flow is going, eg every morning I sit on a crowded Turbo on the 8.58 from Malvern as it passes the 8.22 HST to Hereford just outside Moreton, with dozens of empty seats going west. While I wouldn't wish a journey to Hereford by Turbo on anyone, it's pretty clear which of the two services really should have an HST.

Yes, we had just a handful of HSTs each way pre-2004, but the services on the route were split between FGW and Thames at that time and it was painfully obvious long before 2004 that the Turbos had done such a good job of growing custom that something bigger and better was needed and that something - putting 180s on Oxford and Cotswold services to offer that InterCity quality and comfort - played a big part in helping FGW clinch the deal to run the Thames Valley routes from 2004-6.

Are you saying that it's okay to remove stock designed for long-distance services in favour of - your words - bin lorries on wheels? (and just to be pedantic, don't all bin lorries have wheels?). Even if the litter-picking is better, the Turbos are still the same inside as they were in the hands of Thames and NSE - and look destined to stay like that even after their 'refresh'.

It's a mastter of cost over passsengers, Richard.

FGW tell me that custom is down & they can't commercially run a 7 car HST commercially on those services being swapped over, even on the first off-peak.

I was told not so long ago that increased patronage will help persuade them to reintroduce HSTs.

And turboing them is a guaranteed way to drive customers away

Yes, I would agree with that statement. Which unfortunately reinforces FGWs hand in saying there's no longer the required traffic to run off-peak HSTs.

I think the saying is 'Use it (the service) or lose (the HST) it.....

Not to worry, some 5 car noisy squeeling trains should be heading to First Great Western again soon.

Lets just pray, for Cross Countrys sake, that they aren't voyagers!!!

Care to expand on that devon_metro? Have you heard the same rumour I have?

Would that be this one, gents?  ;D :

Think they are replacing floors/ cappets, new seat cusions, repainting the ceilings (!) new tables in first class and changes to the lighting. I do hope at least window issues will be fixed.

However, the fact they have lasted as well as they have is a sign of good design.

At the last meet the manager event at Reading, I tackled them about the state of them and he said ' they are very well used units that havent been that well looked after' I did point out that maybe if FGW looked after them in the first place.....

The first class issue- if the 166 were used on the long distance routes as they should be they could retain first class, 165 could go all second. First class is hardly great on the uniits- not worth the extra ticket cost.

wrong as it maybe- for the money I pay a month I refuse to stand so will find a seat where possible. Anytime an inspector has told me and others to move out of fitst class no one has, I agree its wrong but i'll be dammed if I will stand!

Chris,

I have emails from FGW dating from a few days after they introduced a turbo replacement to a full HST stating that while the loading on the recently replaced HST was sufficient and totally overcrowded on the turbo replacment that the HST would be of more use elsewhere.

No mention of replacing due to reduced loading in fact the opposite. I think FGW simply got the sums wrong and didnt have enough HSTs for the service they proposed.

Well pay the fare to sit down - sorry - that is life - if you can afford it and can pay - if not stand. 

If passenger numbers are down - why does the 8.58 couple to another Turbo at Oxford to cope with numbers boarding that service there then? Why are we getting an extra Turbo running as a relief on the Moreton-Oxford leg in a fortnight's time, instead of the HST the loadings past Oxford justify?

If they are worried about falling traffic, why do FGW do nothing at all in the area the Cotswold Line serves to promote:
a. The Cotswold Line Railcard for cheap fares on local journeys?
b. The Network Card, for the many people who travel a lot off-peak to Reading and London - and there are plenty off them? Or the regional Rover tickets, which if cunningly used, can also save money on such journeys.
c. The substantial cuts they made to most off-peak fares on the route in January?

No marketing whatever and the anti-marketing of putting yet more Turbos back on the route. Doesn't look like they're that bothered one way or the other. Maybe things will change post-redoubling but there's nothing stopping them pulling there finger out on this kind of thing right now, so why don't they?

d. The Oxford Evening Out ticket
e. The equivalent at the Worcester end of the line
f. Any form of yield management

f is the one that really surprises me. Go on any other part of the FGW high-speed network - any other IC route anywhere in Britain, come to mention it - and there are carriages full of reserved seats with people paying cheap fares. But this is really, really rare on the Cotswold Line, and as comments elsewhere on this forum have indicated, it's not as if people don't want them!

I do understand your point, Chris, that not every single Cotswold service merits an HST - although I'd argue that the 8.58 certainly does.

But Turbos are not an adequate solution; and that's not down to size, it's down to passenger environment. 3+2 suburban units on a 2hr30 journey to Worcester, let alone Malvern or Hereford, can only serve to dampen demand. Pretty much anything other than Pacers or unrefurbished 150s would be better - 175s or 180s, 168s or 170s, 156s or 158s.

Thanks for the advice fallen angel, not sure why your getting so rattled, but I think the money I pay means I should get a seat- thats my take on  life.

And my take on life is that you should be excessed and penalty fared. First class is for first class ticket holders. Your standard season gives you no priviliges to break the rules regarding first class.

And as for "...but I think the money I pay means I should get a seat...." no dice there I'm afraid. You are receiving a discount by buying a season. If anything a standard anytime ticket holder has more right to sit in first class based on that logic. They have paid, pro rata, far more for their ticket.

Let's just pray that if this is true, none of them turns a wheel anywhere west of Paddington until they are given the reliability modifications that they desperately need. And if someone could do something about those blasted brakes while they're at it...

Well I beg to differ, but thats what i like about this forum- we can all express our views.

Some people get into their heads that because standard class is full it's their god given right that they should sit in First. Not the case I'm afraid. 

Something I'm guilty of, but then I also have it my head that the air con should work, windows should stay shut, I shouldn't have to breath fumes in, the toilets shouldn^t stink and the lights should stay on if an engine cuts out. I also expect my train to be 3 car, not cut to a two car unit. I have quite a lot in my head!

I've noticed a new voice doing the Turbo CIS announcements today.  The third such change in the short life of the system.  Not impressed with the slow speed and her rising inflection at the end of each station name is so pronounced that it sounds like someone is tickling her with a feather!

I've noticed that too but one exception is Ealing Broadway, her mood seems to suddenly drop and she seems to say it in a rather world-weary kind of voice!

Is it a welsh sounding lady? If so she is the new voice to feature on-board all GWR trains.

Season tickets are heavily discounted if compared to peak time single tickets.

You could probably upgrade to a first class season ticket for less per mile than peak time standard class single or return tickets.

Broadgage - why are you responding to a post from 2009?....:-)

Because the issues raised are still relevant today and I wanted to add to informed debate, or perhaps I failed to read the date!

About as time expired as the original broad gauge !

We'll see posts about the 'Atmospheric' yet!

The 14xx from Teignmouth is delayed by rats gnawing on the leather.....

I was so tempted to respond to one of ChrisB's posts from 2009  ;D ...

It makes resources here so much more valuable when updates are added to really old posts, bringing them into current context and helping to inform newer members of the history.   I'm all for following up on old posts!

Yes, that's the one.  It's not awful, but in my opinion not as good as the previous voice and certainly doesn't flow as well

Current voice is that of Bristol-based VO artist, Faye Dicker - https://soundcloud.com/faye-dicker/faye-dicker-commercial-showreel (https://soundcloud.com/faye-dicker/faye-dicker-commercial-showreel)

Its not final yet anyway, its hard to tell how things will sound until you actually get it out there. There is some alterations being made over the next week to hopefully make it flow better. Volume is also being increased slightly.