Great Western Coffee Shop

 :o Oyster PAYG to be valid on all National Rail services in zones 1 -6 from January, fares will not be same as present Tube Zone system it will be announced.

One of the complexities of the new scheme is that there won't be any consistency. As discussed elsewhere, there will be three types of fare, TfL only (ie Tube/DLR/Overground), NR only, and TfL/NR.  So far so good.

First problem comes with the historic joint LU/NR fare availability routes, and there are quite a few. Examples are Upminster - Fenchurch St, Stratford - Liverpool St, Finsbury Park - Moorgate.
 
There will be routes where they just won't be able to tell how you travelled, and a good example is Ealing Broadway to Paddington direct with FGW, funnily enough. Here the barriers at both ends of the journey are joint LU/NR. A poster in another forum reckoned he'd been told by 'someone in FGW' that they had already agreed to stick with the TfL scales anyway, as part of their early agreement to accept Oyster PAYG.

Another example could be Kensington Olympia to Wimbledon - again the barriers at either end are joint TfL/NR so won't be able to determine the route taken, ie District Line only, or perhaps SN and SWT via Clapham Junction, as no intermediate gatelines will be passed through. 

It seems to me that the only way to predict what you'll be charged is to use the online TfL single fare finder, making sure you select the right 'gateline' where there are two shown, eg Waterloo[NR] or Waterloo[LU] etc...

Another fairly major change, gleaned from various TOC websites, is that from PAYG go live on Jan 2nd, all fares within the zonal area will be singles, either Anytime (Peak) or Offpeak - with an afternoon peak period introduced where they don't currently exist, basically the 3 'southern' TOCs. Offpeak Day Returns will disappear, to be replaced by two offpeak singles.  (SWT's site for example states 'Off peak return tickets withdrawn and replaced by Oyster PAYG off-peak fares' - can we assume from that wording that paper singles will still be sold?)

Paul

Very interesting. 

 Couple of points, what happens to the day Travelcard sold from ex NSE stations, which covers all TFL bus/underground/overground and NR services in Zone plus DLR and Croydon Trams.

Also I understand it that the advantage of the PAYG Oyster is that once you've made several journeys in a day you get charged a maximum fare (sort of travelcard for the zones you use) no matter how many more journeiys you make.

Are you saying that if say you go Southern (from Victoria/London Bridge) to Croydon to travel on the trams that you will be charge separately for that journey and pick up the travel card fare again on the trams?

The excellent londonreconnections site (http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2009/11/oyster-payg-on-national-rail-from-jan.html), covers the introduction in full, with further, in depth, links and full fare tables. It also outlines the issue of the new Permit to travel system or Oyster Extension Permit requirement for season ticket users intending to travel beyond their season validity, which will cause much confusion.

Travelcards will still be available for through journeys (outboundary travelcards). The major difference from January is that for 'ordinary travelcards' (those sold within the zonal area), the Oyster PAYG daily cap will now be the same as the equivalent Travelcard price. Currently the Oyster PAYG daily cap is 50p less than the travelcard equivalent, TfL's explanation is that this was because PAYG didn't cover the majority of the National Rail services within the zones, but now it will.

I think initially though, a few years ago, the explanation was that the 50p reduction was an incentive to use Oyster rather than buy a paper travelcard.  Academic now really though...

The London Reconnections article is good for a list of the fares, and most of the comments are to do with these extension permits - OEPs. It's a tough read to get right to the end, but the bottom line appears to be that the current system has a bit of a loophole that TfL aren't worried about, but the TOCs are. At the moment, someone with a Travelcard Season loaded on Oyster, who travels from his normal zones, Z1-2 say, without touching out in say Z6, will go undetected and not be charged the correct PAYG extension.  The TOCs obviously don't want to allow this because unlike LU, many of their outer zone stations have no barriers, although they'll have Oyster validators. Hope that sums it up adequately.

Paul

But you try & obtain an Oyster Extension Permit (OEP).....

NR stations *won't* be able to load them - you have to go to an Oyster shop or an Underground station, before you start you trip. There's going to be a storm sooner than later about this...

The latest TfL board papers, which are somewhat delayed in what they report, reckon that most TOC TVMs will be modified to retail Oyster products such as PAYG credit (there's the usual 'but not SWT' stuff of course).  In fact this is already mentioned in the weeds of some of the various TfL press releases.)   I understand that some of FGW's TVMs already do PAYG top ups. So once hardware to allow for PAYG top ups becomes generally available, presumably it would only require a software change to provide OEPs as well?

Paul

Here's hoping - but as these OEPs come into operation in just 21 days time......

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8512142.stm):

Maybe being my usual beligerent self on this but why has TfL refunded these people? Is it beyond the ability of people to ascertain the revised terms and conditions applicable when services are introduced or extended?

I think SN, SE and c2c should become fully Oyster compatible.

Smartcards are coming to the Midlands now:

http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/the-key/

But it is NOT the same as Oyster. Very sensible! Having one card for the whole country is obviously too sensible an idea...

If they can load seasons onto 'Key', it is effectively the same as Oyster's original mode anyway, which was seasons only.

If you are referring to Oyster PAYG, it would only work in discrete areas like London. Unleashed on the mainline railway you would have to have a huge balance preloaded, to allow for a suitable entry charge. In London, this charge is no more than about ^6.00.

Don't blame the TOCs for not buying into Oyster though, they're all contracted to adopt ITSO formatted cards, like the national bus pass scheme.  This is why SWT have had 'issues' because by now Oyster readers in London were supposed to have been altered to read ITSO format smartcards, this is according to DfT in the SWT franchise documentation.  Basically, DfT signed up to a promise they couldn't keep.

Paul

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8615584.stm):