Great Western Coffee Shop

There has been a few topics lately on the subject of fare evasion and I feel it is important to discuss why some people feel it is ok to avoid paying fares if theycan and inform others to do the same. We all want an improved railway system but some people refuse to pay to use it which will utimateley leads to less money being available to invest in the rail network. I feel that people who fare evade are using services other people have paid for at no cost which is extremely unfair. More importantly as well, if nobody purchases a ticket, then there is no record of how many people are using theservice and as a result it could be withdrawn due to official figures showing a lack of patronage as nobody purchases tickets.

I hope this can be an interesting topic as it would be nice to know why some people fare evade knowing it's illegal and what their views are regarding the risks involved if everybody decided to fare evade.

I think there are elements who consider that fare evasion is a victimless crime - but is isn't; the victims are the people sitting right beside the fare evader, who have to pay a higher fare to compensate for the lost revenue.    If one in 10 people doesn't pay for a 40 pound journey, then the other nine must each pay 44.44 ... and if there's a significant problem with fare evasion, and you need a lot of RPI folks to keep it down to even the 1 in 10 level, then that 44.44 could become 48 or 50 pounds ...

Your point concerning service statistics is also a good one - certainly, usage figures on the "TransWilts" were heavily skewed at times of bustitution in 2005 and 2006, before First withdrew most of the services that December.  It wasn't a case of intentionally evading payment either, some of the time.   A late night but from Chippenham to Melksham, and no facilities to buy a ticket at Chippenham station. Nor on the bus. Nor on arrival at Melksham.   So people missing from the stats.

In all honesty, missing passengers from the stats probably didn't make any difference to the loss of these services, which were showing growth (ticket sales and passenger counts) or 10% to 35% per annum. The death sentence had been passed even before the Spring 2005 consultation, when the SRA had gone against even the draconian Jacobs report which they had commissioned, and had recommended a growth to a service every 2 hours on the TransWilts compared to cutbacks elsewhere.  Thus 2005 and 2006 service was a swansong, awaiting the already-decided execution by First Great Western on behalf of the DfT, and even passenger figures that had doubled wouldn't have made a difference.

There is a world of difference between fare evasion and using the system legitimately to avoid paying a higher fare.

The most common way to lower the cost of a fare is to book in advance if this is available for your chosen journey.
Other legitimate ways to reduce fares include; split-tickets, routeing and using Ranger and Rover tickets.

I too have noticed the odd post where tactics are discussed to evade paying the correct fare for your journey. Fortunately the forum moderators have been on the ball and stepped in where necessary. Offering up ways to evade fares, even under the guise of highlighting perceived anomalies, shouldn't be condoned.

Im not so very sure that the link between rising ticket prices and fare evasion is as strong and direct as some people think.
Many of the regular hardcore evaders would probably freely admit that they simply wouldnt travel by train if it meant paying for it.
I heard it rumoured that the reason there are no ticket barriers at Fratton station is because South West Trains are well aware that it would not for that reason have any significant effect on revenue.

On a moral basis of course, it does make me angry that somebody is receiving the same service and travelling opportunity as me without paying for it, but then it could equally be said that it is not fair that others pay slightly less simply because they are of an age that permits them to use a 16-25 RC or a Senior one.  Just because something is legitimate does not mean it is therefore fair.

That's a bit unfair; lumping in railcard holders with fare evaders. It can be argued that railcards attract people to the railways that otherwise would not travel on them, therefore increasing revenue. If you think it's not fair that railcard holders get the discounts they do then you have to apply the same logic to child fares (they still take up a seat). And what about Joe Bloggs travelling on a heavily discounted Advance Purchase ticket sitting next to Mr Suit on his Anytime ticket? Or indeed me using split tickets and a knowledge of the routeing guide to reduce the cost of my journey. All legitimate and all fair.

I must admit I never thought of the consequences of my actions when not paying before getting on the train concerning increased fares for other users, the redistribution of wealth and the end of world poverty....

I will pay the ^3.50 fare (approx) for those two mornings/ evening every couple of months I get an early/ late train 

Obviously the recession, credit crunch and, more pertinently, fare increases above and beyond the RPI are all my fault now and not those politicians and bankers!

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I may be mistaken but I was told that train managers get a percentage of any tickets they sell on board the train? So if they did do an inspection round then they could make a bit of a bonus as well?

I also make, on average, a fortnightly journey to and fro to a town outside London which I always purchase advanced tickets for due to the relative cheaper cost. Since I've started doing this trip again, after a break of two years, I have noted a distinct lack of inspection of the tickets when on the train, which is roughly a 2hr journey.

Some do, some don't. Depends on what sector/depot of FGW they work for.

And so you should.


I'm not sure you can lay the blame for the recent FGW fare increases at the door of the banks. Even blaming politicians is a bit of a stretch. Yes, they wrote the rules regarding 'protected' fares, but it is FGW who have applied them to the letter. As for all other fares, FGW can increase (or decrease) them as they see fit. 

you can actually be prosecuted for boarding a train without a valid ticket from a staffed station byelaw 18 (1) I believe FGW RPI's have now been told to start doing so aswell........

Ok - I'm one of the ones that has trodded the grey line.  Whenever I have suggested something that is fare evasion I do believe I have pointed out that it is wrong.  In fact, the only time I think I have done that was in the advice to look at a ticket to shrewsbury and just get off early.  There are three things that I just cannot make sense of in my brain and - "thats the rules" does not, in book, mean they should be the rules.  If we all accepted rules because of rules then no revolution would ever happen.  The ones I cannot accept as there is no logical reason are:

1. If you get an advance from A to B and get of at C where the train passes through C en route to B so A-C is less than A-B then it is against the rules to get off and never complete your journey.  I CAN accept not being able to get off and then resume later but NOT just deciding your done with it and getting off.  I suppose my problem is that I see A-C as a sub product of A-B and not completely different products.

2. I cannot and will not accept that getting on the train with the means to pay and the intention to pay - especially when you have a track record of shopping yourself when you could have NOT paid (yesterday, the day I pointed out the ticket the TM had checked was actually NOT valid!) - would ever be an offence.  Let the RPI's try to take me to court - I can produce a valid ticket for every journey I have taken (I think with one or two exceptions when it proved impossible to buy one!)


2ii - Related issue.  Either prevent the TM's/Guards from issuing tickets and therefore man every station and barrier them in which case boarding without a ticket it clearly evasion OR allow ticket checking on the train and dont use - oh but its too busy/we cant do it in time.  Since the TOC's are happy to pad the time table for their benefit - put in enough time to put a ticket checker at every train door as people board and depart and give them stampers so they can stamp as you get on to stop you dumbelling from bristol with a reading-reading west ticket.  Black or white - the only way if you want to remove discretion.

3. The student rail card issue  - the ONLY place it refers to the OU is in the online document.  It is not in the printed leaflet.  Ticket offices are not aware.  A couple of RPI's I was chatting with are not aware.  Most of the TM's are not aware.  And even where it IS printed online, the wording is so dubious that it is not clear legally whether it is the OU per se or just an OU NUS card - and since ISIC seems to be valid and the OU qualifies for ISIC so long as you prove a full time course load......

Rant over.

Best way to stop this is the way they do it in most mainland European countries where reservations are mandatory on most long distance trains. Buy a ticket from Paris to Marseille for example you'll get the ticket plus you pay a reservation supplement. If you don't end up catching that train then you have to pay another reservation supplement for a seat on the next available one.

Lond distance commuters - I pay 1K per month on average in a train ticket - no way can I tell you whether I'm on the 1722,1822,1922 home.

Do I have to remember to phone up every day?

Sometimes I may not be on any if I stay down over night or decide to WFH last minute.......... I either pay for anytime returns (at the moment) or season tickets in the past (when more predictable) - whould I be penalised yet again?

No, you just pay the reservation fee to the guard on board.

Yes and on the continent you must validate your ticket before you board the train.  Does away with the need for ticket barriers.  The last time I was in France the penalty for not doing so was minimum of 75 euro.  And none of the namby pamby penalty fare give your name and address etc.  Pay up or get arrested.  I understand that is why most of the guards go around in pairs after 9.00pm  ;D

That may be your opinion but you are wrong.  There is case law going back a number of years where people have been prosecuted and convicted for exactly that offence.  In fact in the statement you are actually admitting to fare dodging as by your own admission you have travelled on occasion and not paid for a ticket for your journey.

I say this as what you are doing can be construed as fare dodging and your need to know this and especially not encourage other people to do it.

1. I got on at an unmanned station with no TVM - they do exist in the sticks
2. I could not get the TM even after knocking on he rear cab/guards van
3. I got off at (1) and unmanned station with not TVM on two occasions and (2) a station with a broken TVM

That is NOT fare dodging

My understanding is that if you make a train (or bustituted) journey where you are unable, in spite of efforts made, to pay on the journey ... then you are supposed to get in touch with the service provider and pay later.  But I would be very surprised indeed if more than a small proportion of people actually get in touch with the TOC when they get home and ask "how shall I pay for the journey I just made?" ...

Yes but you have to be very careful.  A number of years ago there was a barrier block at Didcot Parkway.  They were checking tickets in the car park.  Anybody who came from a staffed station and found without a ticket was prosecuted for fare evasion and they were ALL convicted.

There was one wealthy individual who decided to appeal.  On the day the judge spent a little while looking at the papers and then said to the defence barrister "Why are we here?"   A little while later the passenger concerned left the court several thousand pounds worse off having lost.

The reason was all the passengers had left the station and made no effort to purchase a ticket from the open ticket office on the station.  That in itself was enough to convict. So beware.  This offence is known as pay when challenged.  ie you only pay when asked to.

But thats the point - I would have bought a ticket at the ticket office if it were open!

Of course, that does leave you if you were so inclined to be less than truthful about where you got on!

Last week I used a Ride Cornwall ticket, I boarded a train at Camborne at about 18:00.  I had a valid ticket so it wasn't an issue for me but the train manager was nowhere to be seen and at Redruth the ticket office had closed early due to staff shortages so if I had been wanting to just travel from Camborne to Redruth and didn't have the Ride Cornwall ranger or another ticket purchased previously how would I have been expected to pay for the journey?

I have tried to do this occassion in the past.  This was perhaps about 5 years ago before the TVMs were installed but I did Filton AW to Oldfield park fairly regularly and occassionally I didn't get a ticket on the train (because I was unable to find the TM reasonably easily).  I called Wessex trains Customer services and asked to pay, they told me I ought to send them a cheque or go to a staffed station - which I freely admit I did not do.

   

I have to say my experiences in the past when I've sought out train managers have not been good. On all occasions the train was delayed and the TM was hiding (sometimes in Coach F along with the huge number of off-duty staff who always seem to travel between CDF and SWA, sometimes in coach A). Every time they made it abundantly clear to me that I was causing them a serious inconvenience, so god only knows how awkward they'd have been if I'd been asking them to issue me a ticket.

So from my experience, if you have to seek out the train manager because they're hiding, they're unlikely to be that helpful, because the helpful ones tend to be out there walking through the train dealing with stuff!

Last week as I said I boarded at Camborne and the train manager didn't make an appearance until after Liskeard.  A new train manager joined at Plymouth and by the time I got off at Newton Abbot the tickets from Plymouth had not been checked.

I seem to be detecting a marked improvement in HST ticket checking between Bath and London in recent weeks (from "appaling" to "not too bad").  Maybe I am being mislead by random flucuations pater-seeking mammal that I am, but hopefully this issue is finally being got to grips with.

Ba-doom, ting!  ;D

And then we have this mornings 0735 from WOS

not a single ticket check all the way to Reading.  No ticket seller person boarding at Charlbury.  therefore I cannot believe that (1) there was a ticket check before WOS or that (2) the TM would bother doing one after Reading.  (was not a voice I recognised so may be a newbie on the service)

now bearing in mind that on that train, there are a large number of tickets sold on board due to the unmanned stations, I feel sorry for the poor sods having to queue at the Paddington ticket office to get through the barriers. 

I got my WOS - wokingham from a very bemused SWT guard

Bet he loved you for that!!