Great Western Coffee Shop

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

Does that not class as fare evasions rather than cheap travelling?

not if you're willing to pay for the ticket when/if the train manager comes along?

Incidentally I'd like to praise the efforts of a member of staff at a South Wales railway station but don't know how to (as I don't know which company are responsible for station staff/ station resource protection assistants in South Wales)

They went the extra mile and it was appreciated. I'd just like to compliment instead of complain

From the condtions of carriage:
"2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid
for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make."

If facilities are available you MUST use purchase your ticket before boarding the train.

"One way of travelling cheap" certainly implies that there is an intent to avoid paying the proper fare for the journey, rather than use a legitimate way of buying the cheapest fare for the journey. So yes, it's fare evasion, and explains why some of our regular contributors feel that anyone boarding a train without a ticket is a fare dodger (not a view I subscribe to, but let's not reopen that well worn debate.)     

Exactly

I prefer to bu my tickets on the train for two reasons:

1. Its quicker for me and more convenient - on the train im a captive audience and with my journey time being over an hour a day more than it was five years ago - I really do not want to allow even more time for my journey so I can get the ticket from the ticket office!
2. I only do admin once a week and try to avoid transferring money from the business to me if possible (less tax) - so by wednesday it is possible if I try to buy a ticket my card will be declined if its in the ticket office because of the real time check.  But if I do it on the train - (a) it will process and if I havent put the funds in in time it still goes through anyway and (2) it takes about a week for the transactions from the avantix machines to actually clear the bank - all this save me the embarassment of having a card declined.

Unfortunately, people getting on the train with the hope the TM doesnt wander through and therefore doesnt have to pay means that people like me are assumed to be fare dodgers.  So sorry - this is not trying to reduce the cost of travel but outright evasion

As has already been pointed out, deliberately getting an early - or, more likely - a later train, on the basis that the ticket barriers will be open, without the need for a valid ticket, and in the hope that the train manager will not, for whatever reason, check tickets, is fraud / fare dodging: we do not condone it.


The question here is the intent: did you board that train, in the hope that you would not be asked to produce a valid ticket?  From your post, it would appear so - again, that would be fraud / fare dodging: we do not condone it.

If you were to actively seek out the train manager, as soon as you boarded the train, and ask to buy the relevant ticket, that could be another matter.

There are several other topics on this forum (in 'Fare's fair' in particular) which deal with the rules on ticketing, and which are well worth reading, to gain a wider understanding of this complex area.

If you are caught by an RPI or BTP upon leaving the station you would be prosecuted for fare evasion!

In answer to yout topic question: Fare dodging, plain and simple.

And your assertion that TMs 'can't be bothered.....' is a bit of a sweeping statement. Where? If you've experienced a lack of ticket checking on a particular route or train, then bring it to the attention of the TOC concerned.

I agree completely with your first point.

But as to the second point, if I brought it to the attention of FGW every time I travelled for an hour on an HSS without my ticket being checked it would be at least 7 times a week (based on a small sample of around 400 journeys).   

While I understand your reasons for doing it, is this not actually classed as fraud of some sort?  I always thought it was a type of fraud to write a cheque for example, when you know you have insufficient funds at that time, even though in theory you have 3 days to clear funds to your account?

Out of interest are you always offered chip&pin or are you ever required to sign?  Just thinking that if FGW ever got round to downloading card transactions a little faster, and your card later declined via signature, FGW would not be covered and would suffer a financial loss.

As to the original question of the topic:  Fare Evasion - all day long.

No - they would be covered.  Mybank honours all debit/credit card transactions done in those circumstances - I just get stroppy letters from them.

All my cards are chip and signature anyway except my cash card - if you tell them you are disabled and request chip and signature, they HAVE to give you one.  They dont want to, but they have to.  I even had virgin try to tell me if I got a chip and signature then I would not be entitled to airmiles - a little suggestion that the resulting headlines - "virgin penalise the disabled by removing account benefits" or words to the effect would not go down well.  I am mildly dyslexic - not enough to really cause me any grief - but enough for me to honestly say I have a disability.

Why do I do this?  If the cards are ever used fraudulently, it is the credit card and the retailer that is responsible not me.  If you use chip and pin, technically you have to prove it was not you and you did not disclose your pin to anyone.  My mum was in such a situation - luckily she could actually prove she was in liverpool at the time the card was alledgedly used in London.  Even then the bank tried to suggest that she'd given her pin out - the only saving grace was she used the same card 45 minutes after the fraudulent transaction thereby proving effectively that she had not leant the card. 

It is because of this they (1) ont want to give out chip and signature and (2) they introduced chip and pin in the first place except they told the unassuming public it was for their own benefit and more secure.

But going back to the original point - half the time I have no idea what my account balance is - first I normally know is when I cant get cash out of the cash machine!  So do I ever KNOW there are insufficient funds - never.  However, not once has a single cheque or card transaction ever been declined for the retailer after being processed.

However cheques now - BTW - clear the same day - I got caught out by that one the other week.  Got my nails done - wrote a cheque on the Thursday - figured that even if banked on the FRiday I didnt need to worry until the Sunday.  WRONG.  Luckily my nail technician has been doing my nails for five years!

I know its not a very scientific system for an accountant/project manager - but it works for me!

I thought that a cheque would only debit your account same day if they happened to share the exact same branch and pay-in at the same branch as the cheque was issued.  Funny how they still make you wait 3/4 working days to draw funds the other way round though  ::)

Yes FGW is covered via Chip & Sig, and Chip & Pin, and as you say, the horrors of card fraud were once shown on Watchdog or Panorama as to how fraudsters could use technology to get hold of your pin without your knowledge, and the banks then claimed they MUST have given it out as C&P is 100% safe - yeah whatever.

If the chip&pin terminal fails and the 'swipe' option on Avantix is used rather than chip&sig I am not so sure FGW would be covered on decline, unless you have a friendly bank which accepts every transaction!

Another thing to be aware of is, if you are fare dodging you probably are not covered by the TOC insurance in the event of an accident,as you do not actually have a valid ticket to be there in the first place

Does that mean that if I board the train at a station with no staff and a failed ticket machine, I am uninsured until the conductor has sold me a ticket?

You beat me to it Graham, I was about to ask the same thing.

What about places like Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Melksham and other tiny rural outposts* which have little in the way of facilities beyond a platform and a shelter?

Are you seriously suggesting that company policy dictates that persons joining the train at these locations are not covered by insurance in the unfortunate event of an accident until such time as they have been sold a valid ticket for their journey?

If this is indeed the case, then I think warning signs at each location should be put up to that effect as soon as possible - and in the meantime, the press should certainly be made aware so that people can be warned about the risky position they are placing themselves in by joining a train at these locations.



*bonus point for spotting the odd one out here. It's quite difficult, as witnessed by the fact that even FGW itself seems incapable of realising that one of them is a significant centre of population.

The OP was referring to fare dodging.  Joined from those stations which do not ticket facilities you cannot be guilty of fare dodging so you would be covered.

Dont forget if the insurance company wanted to go down the line of not paying out they would have to prove you were intending to dodge your fare.  Very difficult to prove unless you already had convictions previously.  So in practice you would be covered if you did not hold a ticket even if you did board from a station with ticket issuing facilities.

Don't understand this statement. I have a ticket and couldn't care less if I am covered by insurance or not.  If I injur myself and it was my fault, noone pays out.  If it is the TOCs fault and I sue them and and they are found liable they pay up regardless of whether or not they have insurance or not.

Are you telling me that if a train crashes and 10 people die and it is the fault of the TOC, only the 9 victims with valid tickets get compensation and the family of the tenth chap who is travelling on a peak time train with an off peak ticket get nothing?

Doesn't ring true to me.

Your first statement is quite correct.

The second one, I'm afraid, is not.
The Banking Code says quite clearly that the onus is on the card issuer to prove that the card holder acted improperly.

"12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently
or without reasonable care, your liability for your card
being misused will be limited as follows.................." (My highlighting)

Depending on the circumstances, the max you may be liable for is ^50.

However, there is a growing tendency for the banks to try and make it the other way round. Their first move is always to blame the card holder. There was a piece on "Moneybox" on Radio 4  last Saturday about this.
If you get this sort of response from a card issuer you should immediately complain to The Financial Ombudsman.

Fare Dodging is ...boarding a train with out  intention to pay for the journey you intent to make.. not being on a peak train with an off peak ticket or being on a train without a ticket because you boarded from a station without ticket purchasing facilities.

Knowingly travelling 'peak' with an 'off peak' ticket is still fare evasion in my book!

The key word is "knowingly". I suspect many find themselves unknowingly with the wrong ticket. I bought a ticket at Paddington at 1444 this afternoon and the machine offered me a super off peak ticket, even though by that stage the 1445 was off the board and the next train was off peak only. Yes, the machine did state that it was only valid until the 1445 departure but how many would notice that if they are in a tearing hurry to catch the train.

That's the second time in a few weeks that a TM has offered me an incorrect ticket at Paddington, though last time it tried to charge me ^30 too much!

In a dream world the machine would let you pick a train to travel on and give you journey print outs. And it could probably be done with extra programming I reckon?

Maybe I am dreaming too much..

But if the public had not sleep walked into chip and pin it would be non issue.............

Even my mother - having been through what she went through - believes in chip and pin - I despair

The reason is my father was called Donald and he always signed as Donald Duck not Donald Jones - no one ever picked it up.............

She wont accept that they could have claimed back every single transaction he made because a signature = liability on the retailer and card issuer.   Actually it wasnt that - if the check our staff/train managers did full ticket checks/sig checking then its a moot point

The Deutsche Bahn machines in Germany let you do just that!

Thanks very much for that, bobg - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

Do the German railways also use the Scheidt & Bachmann machines we have here, by any chance?

I'm not sure exactly, as there are a number of different types of machine, but I shall look when I next go past the station.
According to the German version of Wikipedia, there are a number of machines in use, made by a number of manufacturers
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrkartenautomat (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrkartenautomat)
 List of ticket machine makers in Germany:

    * Atron electronic GmbH in Markt Schwaben
    * elgeba Ger^tebau GmbH in Bad Honnef (vorwiegend Entwerter)
    * H^ft & Wessel AG in Hannover
    * ICA Traffic GmbH in Dortmund
    * Scheidt & Bachmann in M^nchengladbach
    * Sedlbauer AG in Grafenau

I was at M^nchen Hbf over the weekend and checked:

The simpler machine (not touch screen) for local and regional journeys was made by Scheidt & Bachmann, and the ticket machine for the long-distance traion, with details of offers and the ability to print of timetables, to make reservations and to check the prices of different services was made by H^ft & Wessel.