Great Western Coffee Shop

Hi

On Saturday I travelled from Exeter - Reading with a Super Off-Peak Return, which means my return section was valid for 1 month.  On my return (today - sunday) the gates at Reading were open, my ticket was not inspected and the gates at Exeter were also open.  Would it be possible to use the return ticket again if I bought a single from EXD - RDG?  Also,  regarding the validity of Super Off-Peak on FGW services - which trains/times are they valid?

Look forward to a reply

I expect the "official" answer is: No - that's fare dodging.

But I expect the practical answer is: Yes - as they can't stop you/prove otherwise. If you were to, it would serve FGW right for woeful ticket checking. Barriers should be manned for longer, guards should make regular ticket checks and there should be occasional random RPIs.

Hmm. That puts me in a rather difficult position, as an admin on this forum. ::)

Obviously, we do not condone fare dodging.  :-X

Is this fare dodging:

I buy a Off Peak Return ticket for A - C. It involves a change at B. However, on the way back to A, I decide to get off at B and get picked up instead.

A few weeks later, I need to travel from B to A, and I use the return portion of my A to C ticket (still in date).

When are super off peak valid exactly? and is a single 1/2 price of a return?

No two ways about it, I'm afraid, that's pure and simple fare evasion. The ticket entitles you to make that journey once, and you have made the journey, so regardless of whether or not it was cancelled it is no longer valid for travel.


Assuming the ticket permits break of journey on the return  journey, this is entirely legitimate. You have simply broken your return journey as permitted.

Seeing as this thread is to do with a specific ticketing query, I have moved it into Fares Fair from Across the West.

I agree

but a bit like my experiment last year where I worked out how much it cost me buying a season ticket rather than a Charlbury-RDG and RDG - RDG West pair.........

This summer when I was staying over due to the blockade I bought returns.  With the advent of the five day validity of the out portion of a return I *could* have saved approximately ^700 (I could pull the exact figure but its on my laptop and I cant be bothered booting it up) in six weeks by not re- using tickets  that were not gripped ....... and you cannot even put it down to familiarity as most of the Swansea guards are not regulars on the cotswold line.

One TM even checked n out of date ticket (I'd bought it the week before intending to travel two days later and then my plans changed - it was genuinely unused but it was only after the check I realised it was out of date)

Even barrier dont help that much - stick a ticket in a wallet thingy that seasons go in and see how many gate staff insist on you taking it out so they can tear the strip..........most dont.

Which comes back to my argument - get rid of barriers which are just damn inconvenient, get rid of barrier staff and actually do proper on train ticket checks.  Make the penalty for evasion  so huge that people dont chance it on the off chance of getting caught - im talking in the high hundreds if not thousands of pounds. And let people buy the ticket on the train........

Ah....but break of journey rules usually only allow completing your journey on the following morning after your break. A few weeks hence may be problematical. If your ticket has been 'gripped' on the C to B part of the journey with a date stamp then you may find yourself in trouble. And even if it hasn't been 'gripped' you are still breaking the rules. Quite how this is proved though....

That's what I thought. And most of the time it is just a quick flick of a biro!

I'll be giving some of you a 'quick flick of the biro' in a minute!  :P ::) ;D

Please do bear with us, while we sort out the implications of these "fare's fair"' questions?  Seriously, we do have to be aware of our legal responsibilities here, and being seen to be allowing, never mind encouraging, discussion of 'fare dodging / ticket laundering' on this forum could land us in very hot water!

Thanks, Chris.  ;)

I was in the process of offering a solution to folks who break the rules on ticket use on another thread, but it was locked (understandably as it was offering ways to break the rules) before I could post.

What we need is network wide ticket validation technology. You swipe your ticket (or smart card) at your start, break, and destination points. If it's valid you can travel. If your travelling from a remote station then you swipe your ticket onboard a train that has validation equipment installed. There is no need to use this technology to replace on board (human) checking. If a guard/TM/RPI finds you travelling with an unvalidated ticket then you are PF'd. If TfL can utilise a similar technology on their buses, then it can't be beyond the realms of possibilty for TOCs to employ a similar system. Of course this would require some capital investment and a need for all the interested parties to sing from the same song sheet....something that, at the moment, is sadly lacking in 'UK Rail'.

I'm sure there will be posts that highlight problems in such a system, but please remember this forum is not here to condone rule breaking (Dear Mods: I hope that's a suitable footnote ;D)

Now that, bignosemac, is an absolutely brilliant summary of the situation: thanks!  ;D

What I get confused about is how travelling less than your ticket can be "dodging". Ok - it breaks the rules of the AP fare yes, but is it really serious?

But I will stop, as I don't want to get this forum into trouble. Besides, my biro has just run ou .

Seriousness don't come into it. Dropping litter is wrong and can be punished, driving at 35mph in a 30mph zone is wrong and can be punished. A democratic society dictates that we have laws/rules. Yes, those rules and laws may seem petty to the individual, particularly when said individual is caught out by them (I do laugh when I see speeders on 'Police! Stop!' type programmes trot out the line, 'why aren't you out catching proper crimimals?'). Occasionally rules need to be challenged to highlight their pettiness, however whilst said rules are in place you cannot use their 'pettiness' as a grounds for defence. By all means challenge rules that you may perceive to be wrong, but don't challenge them by breaking them....that's a short road to anarchy.

Afraid you're not entirely correct here; this is why...

The rules for break of journey depend on whether it's the outward or return portion of a ticket. Generally, the outward portion is valid only for one day; if you cannot reasonably complete your intended journey within one day then you may break it and resume it the following morning, ensuring that you do so before 1200. Equally, in most cases, you could break the journey through choice and complete it the same day, assuming there was no specific restriction applied to the ticket you held.

HOWEVER, the return portion of a period return is an entirely different kettle of fish, since it is valid for a month. In this situation you are entitled to break your journey and resume it at any time while the ticket is still valid. So you could quite legitimately stop off and stay with friends/relations for a few weeks on your way home before completing the journey. Or, indeed, in Btline's hypothetical situation, use the B to A portion of the journey some time later.

When travelling on an Advance ticket, there are no ifs, no buts, you use the ticket to travel from the point printed to the point printed on the train specified. Any deviation from that renders you liable to pay an excess fare at the very least.

I stand corrected, thanks for that blakey. Of course I only got my information about BoJ from a ticket office. I won't say which one so that I can protect the guilty!

Can I just double check this. I intend to travel to London Terminals from Bristol for a show in a few weeks and would like the flexibility of a SVR fare rather than APs. I'll travel up to Paddington, no break, on the outward portion. On my return after the show I'd like to stop at a friends in Bracknell for a couple of days, in effect breaking my journey there. Waterloo to Bristol via Reading is, I believe, a permitted route on an 'any permitted' ticket, so I should have no problems stopping in Bracknell?

Assuming the Saver you have is route "any permitted" then I think that should be fine. One thing I'm not absolutely sure about though is how the time restrictions are worked out when you have broken/resumed your journey. I assume they are the same as they would be for the through journey but might be wrong.

So surely that means I can use the return portion as many times as I like for a B to A journey within the month!

Yes, it may have had a flick of biro from the C to B section, or even a previous B to A section.

But any guard checking my ticket on the B to A train will see the flick of biro and assume that it was a guard earlier that day on my C to B train.

If the above is true, then they need to sort it out!

Not legitimately or legally, no.

Obviously! But I'm just amazed there isn't some sort of system to prevent this!

I suppose smart ticketing will arrive soon...

The Zifa ticket stamper used by some FGW staff (also XC, NXEC, VWC and I'm sure many others) is partially effective at preventing this, as the ticket is cancelled with the date and a train reporting number. However, although I'm not going to spell it out, this isn't completely foolproof. Another problem with them is that FGW at least don't used the quick-drying ink ribbons that are available on thermal tickets so the cancellation code tends to smear.

BR had a similar system whereby tickets were cancelled with a date and three-digit route code, so it was possible to tell on which section of route a ticket had been examined.

Yeah - I worked it out years ago!

Oh the money I could save.............and even less than the unspoken, it requires train guards to spend long enough to read the stamp!

As it's in the public domain (and, indeed, examples of this piece of kit are brandished daily by FGW staff!), here is some further information on the Zifa ticket stamper (http://www.zifferndruck.de/en/products_ticketstamper.shtml) ;) :D ;D

By the way - I rather like the slightly quirky translation, from the original German text into English: no offence intended!  ::)

ALL FGW staff are meant to use Ziffa's but some don't, a biro scribble actually means nothing on a ticket, and think it looks so unprofessional!

My most recent trip on the railway:

2 were a clipper both being FGW, third was stamp on XC and smudged as soon as it was returned to my ticket wallet

Couldn't agree more yet virtually every non FGW service I use the ticket gets scribble all over it. What travellers from overseas must think when they see someone scribbling all over their ticket is beyond me. Come on TOCs isn't it time you asked your train crew to use something a bit more professional than I biro to mark a ticket?

I looked into getting a Zifa, as ScotRail policy is no clippers and to use an OHP marker which I thought was unprofessional.

Quoted ^250 for a standard one with just 0-9 and a dot, and the best part of ^500 for one that couple provide a reporting number too! I'd imagine that any TOC these days would probably chose not to replace any that have broken or gone astray.

I made similar enquiries some years ago and nearly fell off my chair when they quoted. I assume the TOCs get a significant bulk discount, because they do still seem to be getting procured in enormous quantity - NXEC had a new batch and XC are replacing the old Virgin red ones with a different model.

I've never liked the biro scrawl; agree entirely that it just looks unprofessional. Here in Yankee-land all the conductors, even on poxy little commuter trains, have their shiny chrome ticket punches which seem to be treated like a badge of office and wielded with some pride! They also have a vast array of different shapes (which I assume allows anyone at the company who was so inclined and had enough spare time, to figure out who punched what)...see http://www.bvtoolco.com (http://www.bvtoolco.com) if you don't believe me!

readytostart, I may have an alternative for you - there's a small independent supplier somewhere in Staffordshire who supplies punches in various shapes for a few pounds. They catch the bits so you won't get evil looks from the train cleaners! See http://www.ticketrolls.co.uk/category.php?cat_id=4 (http://www.ticketrolls.co.uk/category.php?cat_id=4). Or, if you want to be truly authentic, there's a pair of old BR nippers going on Ebay that punch a number 6, the old BR Scottish Region cancellation used by guards: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/B-R-Pair-of-No-6-Nippers_W0QQitemZ150376164754QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL?hash=item23031e2d92&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/B-R-Pair-of-No-6-Nippers_W0QQitemZ150376164754QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL?hash=item23031e2d92&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14).

At the risk of sounding a saddo, over the last few years I've invested in a fair selection of fiskars clippers (cushioned handles for hard workers!), usually seasonal, so leaf shapes for Autumn, Xmas tree shapes for winter, etc. I think the reason that SR banned clippers was when they introduced automatic gates, tickets were getting rejected because of nips on the magnetic stripes, instead of just telling us not to clip on the stripes we were told not to use them at all, not that I listened! My latest purchase is a pre inked stamper complete with pay number, depot and TOC.

I think they main thing that bumps up the price of Zifas is the amount of personalisation needed for each one, not a problem for old inter-city operators who didn't have too many different letters in their headcodes, usually just the old BR regions, i.e. V for Western, O for Southern, but the regional operators tend to have many more. This and the majority of local services having just day tickets probably negated the need for hi-tech ticket cancelling.

SWT Exeter - Waterloo always a scribble!