Great Western Coffee Shop

Out of interest, how long does anyone think it would take for a fast service between Penzance and Plymouth calling at say Redruth, Truro, St Austell and Liskeard only? I doubt it would ever happen even for one train as the stations missing out wouldn't be happy, but I think it could go down to about 1h30. Given that the line between Plymouth and Dawlish is still largely limited to 60mph, I severely doubt the Cornish main line will ever allow much higher speeds than it does now, so I doubt there's any other ways to speed things up.

0505 Penzance - Paddington calls Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard and takes 1h44

Trouble with the mainline in Cornwall is there are so many bends, there is only 1 mile of dead straight track, which is from the Shilingham or Wivelscombe Tunnel to the Lynher Viaduct. This route is newer than the original which ran nearer to the Lynher river, but was diverted to the current route which runs further inland.

Mark

Plymouth-Penzance can be done non-stop on an HST in just over 1hr15 (talking from experience  ;D)

Ahem! :o

Officially? ;)

59 mins with a light 47 many years ago I hear... ;)

Yep, ECS!

Noticed today as I exited the circle line at Paddington underground station for the 1405 Padd/penzance several large Air South West posters on the tunnel walkway walls exclaiming London to Plymouth in only 70 minutes and Cornwall in under 2 hours! clearly now targeting rail passengers.Given the very low line speeds in the far south west what do you think the future holds in these parts for FGWs competing services.

Those headline grabbing times for the air alternative are for the airport to airport leg of the journey, inclusive only of the minimum 20 minutes check-in time (hand baggage only). Factor in the travel time to/from the airports as well as a more realistic checking in time (ASW recommend 1 hour) and also exiting at the destination airport and you get a more accurate comparison. Also bear in mind that Air South West cannot compete with the frequency/flexibility that the train offers nor on the comfort levels.
Finally I don't need to prove my identity, nor hand over lots of personal information which ends up god knows where, to take the train!

Oh, one more thing. An adult fare is 16 or over on the train, children over 2 pay full fare on the plane.

Not to mention the fact that Plymouth airport is nowhere near the city centre! From December the 1005 and 1206 departures will take 3 hours flat to get to Plymouth.

In the Great Western Route Utilisation Strategy (RUS) Draft for Consultation regarding earlier arrivals from Paddington to Plymouth it states "Proposals for changing the calling patterns in the West of England have formed First Great Western^s timetable offer in May 2009 with further changes proposed for December 2009.Earlier arrivals from London Paddington to Plymouth were reviewed. Following a high-level appraisal of introducing an earlier service, the gap was discounted."Anything to do with Air Southwests earlier arrivals in Plymouth.First flight from Gatwick arrives in Plymouth at 10.10 and from London city at 10.35 well before the first Paddington train,the 07.30 departure which arrives in Plymouth at a lousy 11.15 ish.

Actually as Airports go Plymouths is very close to the city centre (about 4 miles in fact next to Derriford hospital) with good road access via the A38 parkway to the entire Plymouth urban area.Because of Plymouths geography the City centre is not its geographic centre with most of its population now closer to the airport than the railway station.
  One cannot help get the feeling that the so called main line west of Exeter to Penzance is now little more than a secondary line in the Dfts eyes.Even IEP wont change that.

The 06:45 from Paddington gets you to Plymouth at 10:48, with just a single change at Temple Meads.   I expect the problem with an earlier direct Plymouth (say an 06:30 from Paddington) is that you would need an extra 125 to run it ... and that would be contra-flow, so would be very expensive.  It couldn't really bring a train load of commuters in first from Oxford / Didcot / Reading.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't a market for an arrival in Exeter from London in time for a business meeting or conference at 10am. Things do happen in provincial cities. Exeter is the hq of South West Arts, for example.

Based on past experience when services improve, I think FGW might be surprised at the number of passengers an early service to Devon would attract. After all there hasn't been one since before the "railway renaissance" began.

I wonder how successful XC's new early service from Bristol to Plymouth is?

0730 Paddington Penzance is always well loaded.

...too true, especially considering it's a "peak" service"

I doubt a 4 hour rail journey involving a change at Temple Meads can now even begin to compete with the 70 minute direct Air South alternative from London city to Plymouth from a business travel point of view even when you factor in the additional airport check-in times etc.Which is why air links to London are now viewed as vital to the far South Wests economic well being in this neck of the woods.Unfortunately distance and rail infrastructure limitations have conspired against the railways in this particular market,something the Great Western RUS seems to have recognised.

I wouldn't call one plane against one train a market. The 50 seat plane may well suit a few business people, but the railway is an inclusive form of travel which offers far greater flexibility, choice and comfort. I doubt very much that ferrying a few business types to and from Plymouth (or less likely Newquay) makes a great deal of difference to the GDP of Devon and Cornwall. However I'll concede it may make a difference to the individual business person. The plane offers an alternative when it is needed for those few people who are cash rich but time poor. I agree that the aeroplanes win hands down when it comes to speed on this particular journey, but there is more, much more, to a journey than just speed. I'm firmly of the opinion that the less short-haul domestic flghts we have the better.

I'm also a lot more likely to survive if both engines fail on my HST to Plymouth ;) ;D

If you take the Night Riviera you can get to Plymouth nice and early. Some might say unpleasantly early, in fact, seeing as it sets down Plymouth at 0535. But you'd be in plenty of time for your meeting...

I think one or two people here aught to speak to the Devon and Cornwall business council on the matter and come in to the real world.Personally I prefer rail over air any time but I also recognise that rail like any form of transport has its limitations in certain areas.

So, being a defender of rail transport on a rail forum, means I don't live in the real world? I would love to see what DCBC have to say on transport matters, however the only item I could find on their website relating to transport('D.C.B.C. response to Regional Select Commitee on Transport Infrastructure') was a dead link.

Woody, if you have some links from Business groups in the southwest and their comments/consultations, I'll gladly read them. I would love to know what Plymouth business folk think of their 3 flights to London and 4 indirect flights to Surrey.......

Presumably air travel doesn't work on a turn up and go scheme, which is of course the massive benefit of rail travel.

I fail to see the problem here? there are around 4 flights a day in each direction with planes that are little more than light aircraft with propellers, they seat around 50 people..less than a single 153, so no real threat at all.

There are 10 direct trains from Padd to Penzance and at least 14 to Plymouth on a week day, you can turn up at the station now at Super off-peak time and get a walk up single for ^41.50 from Padd to Penzance, not on the plane though!

Oh, one interesting thing, from Dec there is a 0706 Padd-Ply via the B&H!

There is a large advert for Air South West I noticed today between TVP - EXD saying 'You'd Be There By Now'.  I hardly think that seeing as it would mean transfering city centre - airport, allowing hours for check - in, an hour in the air, collecting baggage and then transfering to the city centre from airport at the other end.  Also, it was not very convenient for me as I was travelling Reading - Exeter St D anyway!

I am merely trying to show that Air South west exists by filling a gap in the market place that rail cannot fill at the moment.I am not pro air and want to see our rail links prosper even if that means ruffling a few feathers along the way by highlighting that fact.
Vacman says from Dec there is a 0706 Padd-Ply via the B&H! are you sure its not on the FGW or National Raail journey planner.Would be great if it were true.

The real attractive flights are into LCY where the check in and exit from the airport are less than 30mins and the onward connections to central London are ultra rapid DLR - Canning Town - 6 mins - on the Jubilee Line then to all the major areas in the Capital. A minor disadvantage being NQY and PLY airports but they are both improving now. It's a real alternative for the BUSINESS traveller.

Until the journey times are improved by removing stops and/or raising line speeds and electrifying, there will always be a need for a quick, affordable journey for business travellers.

If these adverts encourage TOCs to cut slack and improve journey times as much as possible on existing infrastructure, then good!

It's not showing in the journey planners and in the Great Western RUS it was concluded that the business case for an earlier arrival into Plymouth was poor value for money.

 I sometimes wonder if their is a 'business case' for an ealier train from Bristol/Exeter/Newton Abbot/Plymouth.

 Quite a few times standing on a busy platform at Newton Abbot waiting for the late running Bristol/Penzance 0730 in the morning.
 The howls of derision when a solitary 153 comes into view, knowing that we are going to lose even more time because of the bikes at Totnes.
 Fortunately my timetable is pretty flexible and I am quoting the worse case scenario.
 But surely their must be a case for a train that gets to Plymouth before 0800 in the morning ?

Sleeper should be booked to stop at Bath & Bristol T.M.

Should stop something like:

Paddington
Reading
Swindon
Bath ( or BPW )
Bristol Temple Meads
Taunton
Exeter St Davids
Newton Abbott
Plymouth

and as it currently does down to Penzance.

Say booked to depart BTM at 04.45ish!  Gives the driver a few hours rest then!!!

Engineering works is the reason it doesn't stop.

XC introduced a 6 thirty something last December, which significantly improved the options for an early morning arrival in Plymouth.

not heard anymore about the 0706 introduction, maybe I missheard and it is starting in may? usually my sources are pretty good!!

and the met office, theres also the holiday traffic.....back in the day we used to catch the early train down here before we became residents, who wants to spend the first day of your holiday traveling? i have great memorys of arriving at exmouth at 6am after leaving stockport at 1am