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Fines imposed on rail passengers travelling with the wrong ticket are to more than double under plans drawn up by the Department for Transport.

The changes will push up the penalty fare from ^20 to ^50, or double the cost of a single ticket, if it is greater. Aimed at tackling fare dodgers, the scheme will also hit passengers who move into first class compartments because standard class is full, and even people who buy a ticket for one train operator on a given route but inadvertently travel with a competitor company. Even seeing somebody off without a platform ticket in so-called Compulsory Ticket Areas - which include London station Marylebone and Snow Hill in Birmingham - could lead to a ^50 fine.

The plans to push up penalty fares are contained in a Department for Transport consultation document and legislation will be required before the new rates come into force. They come at a time when train operators have been told that they will have to cut commuter fares from the beginning of next year, and are looking to recoup revenue in the recession. Passenger numbers on key routes is thought to have been hit, as the financial crisis takes a disproportionate toll on white collar workers.

One train operator. East Midlands Trains, has just announced a 145 per cent fare rise for some of its passengers, by imposing new ticket restrictions.

Ashwin Kumar, Passenger Focus director, said: ^We accept the principle of Penalty Fares but it is vital that train companies provide adequate retail facilities to allow passengers to buy their tickets in plenty of time before their train departs from the station.^

Stephen Joseph, executive director of the Campaign for Better Transport, also voiced alarm at the scale of the increases. "While it is absolutely right that people who travel illegally without any intention of paying a fare are penalised, there is a danger that we are making the railways much too draconian," he said.

The penalty fare scheme is operated by a number of train operators. Those who participate in the scheme include First Capital Connect, First Great Western, National Express East Anglia, South West Trains, London Midland, Southern and Southeastern. However, within the scheme operators take a different approach to passengers who "upgrade" to first class when standard class is full.

First Capital Connect will normally impose a penalty fare while London Midland and Southern will normally offer passengers the opportunity to pay the difference between the two fares.

The planned increases were condemned by Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union. "We already have examples of staff being put under huge pressure to deliver more penalty fares and these proposals will tighten the screw on both our members and the travelling public. This is all about the train operators milking the last drop of profit out of the franchises and introducing a target culture similar to parking enforcement on the streets."

The rises were described as "outrageous" by Gerry Doherty, general secretary of the Transport and Salaried Staffs Association. "This is another way of picking passengers' pockets, like increasing off peak fares and car park charges. With the closure of many ticket offices in the recession, more and more passengers are finding it increasingly difficult to find the correct fare on a machine. They now face being heavily penalised for that through no fault of their own."

The Government's plans were angrily condemned by Norman Baker, the Liberal Democrats' transport spokesman. "This is a very significant increase without any evidence to justify it. The DfT holds no information on how much has been raised in fines and under what circumstances. So on what basis can they argue that penalty fares should be more than doubled?"

The Association of Train Operating Companies denied that ticket inspectors - known as revenue protection staff - were set penalty fare targets. He also defended the planned increases. "Millions of pounds are lost every year through fare dodging ^ this is money that should be going back into improving trains and stations to make sure that passengers get the service they expect and deserve. It^s the vast majority of the passengers that ends up paying for the few who think that the rules don^t apply to them. It^s proposed that the penalty fare for people who pay within 21 days rises by ^5 to ^25. This would still compare favourably to a parking ticket, a speeding ticket or an on-the-spot fine. The new system would bring train stations into line with the [^50] penalty fares charged by the Underground in London."

A DfT spokesman said: ^This consultation will give interested parties the opportunity to comment on how the rail industry handles this important revenue protection policy, but no firm decision has been taken.^

From the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6139083/Rail-penalty-fares-to-soar-under-Government-plans.html):

To be honest, what is the problem if it was ^1000?

If you don't buy a ticket and do not have a legit reason for not having one, why shouldn't you be fined!

If the penalty was larger, everybody would buy the tickets!

To be honest, what is the problem if it was ^1000?

If you don't buy a ticket and do not have a legit reason for not having one, why shouldn't you be fined!

If the penalty was larger, everybody would buy the tickets!

Would you advocate a fine of ^1000 if drivers were caught doing 1mph above the speed limit? Or maybe for dropping a crisp on the pavement? Sanctions need to be appropriate and proportionate to the situation.

I can imagine the situation if the 4 japanese tourists who apparently recently found themselves unwittingly on a XC train between Reading and Basingtoke on a SWT groupsave had been summarily fined ^4000 between them.

   

No, I'm suggesting that, as that very respected rail commentator Alan Williams has said on many occasions, there are circumstances when completely honest and law abiding passengers find themselves on a train without a ticket (or a valid ticket). Whether it be through the inability of the ticket machine to sell them a ticket for some reason, or another reason.

Would you suggest the Japanese tourists were deliberately trying to evade paying the correct fare? 

   

Didn't we have this self-same discussion a couple of months back after some complained it was "unfair" to be "fined" when travelling on a student ticket when their card had expired 3 weeks previously ?

The arguement that Penalty fares are used to "milk" passengers is flawed, Penalty fares admin is dealt with by an outside company and it costs the TOC around ^15 to process each one, Penalty fares are genuinely there as a deterrent, and what better deterrent than ^50.00 for a short journey? All RP staff (FGW) are all allowed to use their discretion when issuing PF's. It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

Firstly, going 1 mph over the speed limit will not get you fined (unless you are "caught" doing 6 mph in a 5 mph zone)

Secondly, walking past the ticket office is a different degree to going 1 mph over the speed limit.

Thirdly, as Vacman said, discretion should be used, so elderly or foregin people who can't work machines are not fined. And if the office is closed/ doesn't exist, then penalty fares don't apply.

Finally, I think D/M and I were both exaggerating, making the point: "just buy a ticket".

...I suspect the House of Commons will vote the motion down.   

To give an example of boarding a train without a ticket....On Saturday, I tried to buy a ticket from the machine at Dorking Deepdene. The sun was shining straight at the display, making it practically impossible to make out any of it. Coupled with the fact that no matter how hard I jabbed the glass with my thumb, the screen just didn't react. So I gave up and bought my ticket on the train. 

It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

To give an example of boarding a train without a ticket....On Saturday, I tried to buy a ticket from the machine at Dorking Deepdene. The sun was shining straight at the display, making it practically impossible to make out any of it. Coupled with the fact that no matter how hard I jabbed the glass with my thumb, the screen just didn't react. So I gave up and bought my ticket on the train. 

errr........yep

in which case you deserve to get a parking ticket, the same as a Penalty fare, your not above the law just because your late or because your loaded!

I tried to get a single from Paddington to Swindon this evening at 1820 from a ticket machine near the taxi ranks at Paddington. The correct fare is ^24, but the only option I was given was ^54. I double checked this, even though short of time for my train. As I knew better I went to the ticket office, and because there was a queue there, went to a ticket machine in the ticket office which sold me a ticket for ^24 and highlighted the fact that it was only valid after 1825. (There are no Swindon departures from Paddington to Swindon between 1815 and 1830).

I still don't know whether my luck was in at the second machine because it was after 1825, or just because the first machine had not been re-programmed. But I would clearly have been over-charged had I purchased at the first machine, as I'm sure many people will have been.
        

I believe in law, the difference between man slaughter and murder is the intent - well under the PF system, the doging scrote and the poorly organised late for their own funeral but is happy to pay get the same treatment.

An idea? Maybe fares/railcards that are about to become available by time could be shown on the display but with a caveat 'available at hh:mm' to demonstrate to pax what is happening?

And machine barriers don't ask you.

Some do..........I cant use a WOS-SLO with a YP in the barrier!

? What they say please show Railcard? ???

One issue that has always bothered me about TVMs is this: they sell a range of different ticket types for the same journey but do not detail the restrictions that apply to them. Unless you've done your research beforehand or make the journey regularly, it's not always possible to figure out which ticket you should be buying.

The ticket machines at Nailsea won't sell you an off-peak ticket until the machine clock gets to 0930.  Problem is, the first off-peak train from Nailsea departs at 0930 - so unless you can teleport yourself aboard, you just can't do it.

Perhaps that's why our local cheery chap with an Avantix machine has taken to posting a nice hand-written notice next to the ticket machines, inviting intending passengers up to his cabin - where he is happy to sell you an off-peak ticket for the 0930, at any time from 0900 onwards!