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What is now the stance for Penalty Fares from unstaffed stations? A few days ago some desperate lowlifes vandalised the ticket machine at oldfield park to steal the notes, and now there's no way of buying tickets there, but the "warning!" posters remain.

(I know the stations which have working machines between Bristol and Westbury are now only Bristol TM, Bath spa, Bradford on avon, and Westbury. Freshford and Avoncliff didn't originally have one.)

You will only get a penalty fare if challenged by ticket inspectors (as opposed to a ticket guard/conductor).

So don't worry.

AKAIK the penalty fare area around bristol was never bought into effect.  This signs were put up then there was a delay in implementation and it has never happened.

Perhaps someone should tell FGW, their website seems to imply that penalty fares are in operation in the Bristol area.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.pdf

The sceme was never officially signed off by FGW directors, but don't get too complacent as it is a franchise committment from what I can gather so it will have to be implemented at some point, you wouldn't be PF'd from Oldfield park if the TVM was broken.

don't think there are any RPIs in Bristol anyway. Assistant Ticket Examiners cannot issue Penalty Fares. You can get pf'd from many stations in Devon & Cornwall though

Strangely 2 of the most obvious stations (Redruth and Camborne) have not be included in the penalty fare zone though.

Very sore point within FGW!!!!!

That's irrelevant. If your train passes through a penalty fare area, it is a penalty fare train! ::)

No btline, if I travel from Redruth to Camborne, I don't have to buy a ticket however face the risk of an anytime single.

I found it astronomical that Camborne is excluded considering some of the fare dodgers that reside there... ;)

No, but if your train passes through a penalty fare area, it is a penalty fare train (as it says on the posters).

It doesn't matter where you get on and off.

For once, how about trusting those with local knowledge?

I'm just repeating what it says on the posters!

And explain what you mean by "for once".

Stations west of Truro are not in the penalty fare zone.  This includes Redruth and Camborne.

By that logic a direct train from Pembroke Dock to London would mean I am liable to being penalty fared by travelling Pembroke Dock to Pembroke. I think not

Kinda depends on what the TOC have specified in their submission for Penalty Fares enforcement to the DfT. Penalty fares can be applied to trains and/or stations. It appears that FGW (from the wording on their website) have applied Penalty Fares rules to their stations only. Maybe the signs are part of a job lot and contradict this.

Contradictary information given to the travelling public from a TOC? Surely not......

There are some lovely maps of the FGW zones here, including the Bristol area for if/when that is activated http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.pdf

And here, for btline's benefit is the specific part of the Penalty Fares rules from DfT's website. This covers precisely why a penalty fare may not be issued on one part or more of a route. Or for that matter on a train travelling that route.

Penalty fares trains
4.3 'Penalty fares trains' are the train services for which penalty fares may be charged. A train operator will normally name as penalty fares trains all the trains which it runs within a particular geographical area or on a particular route or routes. A train service does not have to be a penalty fares train for the whole of its journey. It will be a penalty fares train while it is within the specified area or travelling over the specified section of route, and will not be a penalty fares train on the part of its journey outside this area or section of route. In deciding which trains should be penalty fares trains, an operator should take account of the geography of the train service, the ticket facilities available at the stations which will be served and whether the area covered can be easily explained to passengers.

Penalty fares stations
4.4 Passengers on a penalty fares train may only be charged a penalty fare if they got on that train at a station which has been named as a 'penalty fares station' by the relevant penalty fares scheme. At these stations, penalty fares warning notices must be displayed and sufficient ticket facilities provided.

Yes, I know about maps with the "penalty fare" area on! ::) ::) ::)

But I have seen posters, adverts and leaflets with the National Rail penalty fare logo on (i.e. offical and national) that state "if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

Thus if you travel btw Redruth and Cambourne without a ticket you could get a penalty fare. (as the train passes through the zone later in the journey).

No, sorry Btline, as the rules I quoted state, quite umabiguously (unusual, granted!) this is not the case. 

It's not on for the dft website to say one thing, and NR to say another.

What makes you sure the dft website is correct?

No, I'm afraid you are wrong.

The penalty fare posters are the same across the whole network, so they are a summary. You won't find a penalty fare poster at Redruth

Then they will say what I have said! They'll have a mini map with the penalty fare area and say "as above".

Sorry, I need to get to the bottom of this! It's not consistent!

Um...... it is on the DfT website. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=4

And whilst I am suspicious of Govt depts, I believe this is correct because it is in the same section as details on the legislation covering Penalty Fares

A couple of points from me, if I may?

The DfT are the ones who set the rules - NR and the TOCs simply (perhaps too simply?) carry them out.

For example, Nailsea & Backwell platforms have had these standard 'penalty fares' posters displayed since long before the first of our ill-fated ticket machines was even installed - and we're still not in a penalty fare zone.

No, Btline, it's not consistent - but then with our railways, since when has it ever been so?  ::)

Then the public, who read the posters when they arrive at the station/ get on the train, are being misinformed. The posters say on thing, the DFT another. >:(

You can only be Penalty fared if you join from a penalty fare station, yes, a train passing through a penalty fare area is a Penalty fare train WHILST PASSING THROUGH THE AREA but only for people boarding at a penalty fare station. i.e. if you arrive at Birmingham New Street having travelled on a LM service from Walsall then you will be PF'd, however, if you were on that same train having travelled from Rugely then you cant be PF'd as Rugely is (well, was last time I was there) not a PF station.

It would hardly be fair to PF someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

Sorry Btline, I misread this when I quoted it. Thought you were saying the info wasn't on DfTs website. Apologies.

If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written! >:(

What are you on about?

the posters at the stations read "Warning, have you paid? please buy your ticket before you travel or you may have to pay a penalty fare at least ^20 or twice the full standard single to the next station, which ever is the greater", these posters are only dispalyed at PF stations, the posters on the trains show a map and show PF and non PF stations and says something along the lines of "if travelling from the stations shown on this map then you are travelling on a penalty fare train................etc, etc"

WHY!

The point is, buy a bloody ticket then you don't need to flap about the technicalities of a poster!

The posters also state:

"if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

That's what needs to be changed!

Anyone found a picture of a PF poster online yet? I bet you're all looking :D

YES, IF YOU JOIN FROM A PF STATION!!!!!!!!!!! and they show non-PF stations on the same sodding map!

No they don't. The "map" shows the "penalty fare network".

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that you if you gave a hoop to Btline he would be able to grab the wrong end of it?
(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/hangin.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

Widening the discussion, somewhat ... Vacman's post struck me as I read earlier in the thread, and I though to myself "Since when was fairness a measure of how the rules were written / fares set?". I certainly agree that it wouldn't be fair ... but that's no proof it won't be done.

Btline says "buy a bl**dy ticket".  Yes - if the bl**dy TOC provides you with the facilities to do so.   To quote a member of FGW staff who posted here in the past, "you may only join a train without a ticket if you do so at a station where there is a non working ticket vending machine, and there are no staff on duty".  That is more draconian than the National rail conditions and stated by one of the staff who's job it is to enforce the rules. It means that at Avoncliff and Melksham and Combe and a host of others, you should buy a ticket in advance.  And for an advanced ticket from Melksham, bought on line just prior to 18:00 the previous day, I have been told to collect from the TVM at Chippenham or Bath ... prior to starting my journey!  Joining a train these days at stations like this, I approach the conductor from the platform and ask if I may join the train and buy from him on the journey - 'negotiate a dispensation' if you like, and have never been refused.  It's usually a friendly "yes - of course - there's no way to buy a ticket here otherwise" ... but one day, no doubt, I'll come across some flaming conductor who won't allow it.

I know that's away from penalty fares, but it's still a question of charging full fare rather than off peak for something that Jo Public can do nothing about ... rather like the Gatwick fares I looked up for when I flew back in the other week ... 42 pounds to Chippenham, or 73.50 (after a wait of several hours) all the way to Melksham. Fair?  You must be kidding!

Stupid question my why not make every train a nd every station in the whole country a penalty fare zone.  From the TOCs point of view would there be any disadvantage?

Yes - TOC would get lots of appeals against PF from those joining at stations with no ticket issuing facilities, DfT are very strict about Penalty Fare Schemes (they even get shirty about No. of Penalty Fare Warnings not printed by guards when selling tickets on board on PF areas)

surely this would only happen if ticket inspectors were wrongly issuing lots of PF from epopel joining at those stations?

NB: Vacman said "buy a bl***y ticket, not me! ;)

At least I can read and understand the map! And the prose on the posters/leaflets infer that the train is a penalty fare train throughout its whole journey - fact. If that is not the case, then the posters need to be re-written.

No, sorry, that was me. I was using a mobile device so couldn't correct my post after i typed into your quote without spending about an hour doing it ;) I shall go and correct it now for clarity.

No problem / I took the view that it was an appropriate use of a mild expletive in an extreme circumstance - and appropriate to a thread which is discussing fare and penalty fairness.  I really fail to see (can anyone explain) why I should not be able to purchase an advanced purchase fare and not be allowed to join at a station where there are no facilities to collect my ticket without having to make an extra journey, first, to a station that has those facilities or buying it long enough in advance to have it posted ...

But, technically, I should have swooped on "the b word", especially as so many of our members here are bemoaning the inconsistency of rail staff at times, and telling about how frustrating that is. Indeed, I have recently frustrated one member enough for him to have recently written "You are possibly the worse forum administrator I have ever come across." and "and a lier to arrogant to admit they are wrong".   Nope - I shouldn't have allowed the "b" word.  Sorry I did - let's move on, and let's all avoid such words  ;D

It's not what I infer from reading it. Like other people, to me it reads when a train is passing through stations in a penalty fares zone then you can be penalty fared. I can see how, technically, you could argue that it could mean what you're suggesting, but whether it is in any way deceiving or accidentally or deliberately going to cause lots of anguish and complaints I doubt very much. As others have said, after all, people should buy a ticket before they board whenever facilities are available - if somebody is making a single journey in west Cornwall and they misinterpret a poster they've seen at another station or in a leaflet they've picked up from another station and feel obliged to buy a ticket from the ticket office instead of chancing it, then that's all good by me!

The English language is a bitch to word properly on occasions, and to be crystal clear about what you mean sometimes takes up more space than is available on a poster, and using a longer sentence loses the impact over a shorter one. By all means come up with one and e-mail it to FGW though, btline!

Oooh can I have a go please?

"PLEASE NOTE THERE ARE NO PENALTY FARES ANYWHERE ON THE FIRST GREAT WESTERN NETWORK"  ;D

Sorry btline, but on this occasion you've had a bit of a froth about nothing. It's abundantly clear both in the conditions of carriage and on station posters that two conditions must be satisfied in order for a penalty fare to be issued: (a) you must join from a penalty fares station and (b) it must be on a penalty fares train.

Let's look at three scenarios.

1. I board an FGW service at Oxford, heading to Paddington. I have not bought a ticket; the ticket office is open.
I am liable to a PF here, because Oxford is a penalty fares station, and PFs apply on FGW services to Paddington from Oxford.

2. I board an XC service at Oxford, heading to Banbury. I have not bought a ticket; the ticket office is open.
I am not liable to a PF in this situation; although I joined the train at a penalty fares station, PFs do not apply on XC services. I am therefore liable to be charged the standard single fare to my destination only.

3. I board an FGW service to Paddington at Radley. I do not have a ticket.
I am not liable for a PF. Although I have boarded a penalty fares train, Radley is not a penalty fares station (indeed, it is unstaffed and has no ticktet machines). I am therefore liable to pay only the cheapeat "walk-up" fare (with a railcard discount, if I have it) for my journey.

Something tells me it won't, but I do hope this clears things up a little...

As a contrary example, take Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton. Definitely an operational PF area.

However all the requisite station notices include the caveat that 'Penalty Fares do not apply to FGW services at this station'.

Which causes no end of amusing conversations at the barriers at Southampton apparently, when the local evaders claim to have just come in from Millbrook on an FGW service.  :o

Paul

And if some one genuinely has?

Don't think fgw stop milbrook anymore!

Did they ever?

Paul

This is the sort of confusion, hassle and argument that would be avioded if penalty fares covered all trains in the whole country.   

It seems a bit daft for DfT to be ultra strict about the conditions for penalty fares and yet allow TOCs to charge full open fares only to ticketless travellers outside of PF zones which can be just as punative finacially without any oversight.  It also amazes me that a TOC cannot be bothered to pull out all the stops and properly implement an initaiative aimed at cutting down evasion. 

Ideally you need to be harsh on those who abuse the system but construct the system itself to be as simple and straightforward and as fair as possible.  The system then wins respect and more people abide by it and those who don't have fewer options to argue the toss about. 

This system is ridiculous.

Hartlebury, near Worcester, is in the Penalty Fare zone. But it has NO ticket facilities at all. (not even permit to travels)

And I still argue my original point. The poster says, if your train passes through the area in the map, you are on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply. That is completely non ambigous to me!

Therefore, someone from Hereford can be penalty fared on a LM service, because although the zone ends at Worcester, the train passes through the area later!

Not sure this is a problem in itself.  If you are unable to buy a ticket you shouldn't be issued with a PF.  Hence my contension that you could and should make every train in the UK a penalty fare train, but obviously only PF passengers who board at a station where they could have brought a ticket

And equally unambiguously. on NRES....."Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Hartlebury". I suggest, Btline that you write to LM and ask them to remove the posters from Hartlebury. That's if they are there in the first place, of course.

Oh, and equally unambiguously, LM's Penalty Fare leaflet makes it quite clear, on the accompanying map that PF's do not apply from Hartlebury and other unmanned, un-TVM'd, stations on the LM network.

http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/penalty-fares/ click on the hypertext link "Full details of our Penalty Fare scheme......." to bring up the leaflet pdf.

What are you on about? Hartlebury does not have the posters, because it has no facilities for buying tickets, so penalty fares don't apply! Why would they have the posters?

However, these posters are on the trains, and they make it quite clear.

I see that you completely ignored the Hereford part of my post, where my argument comes through!

I ignored the Hereford bit because PFs on LM services out to Hereford are being introduced in September. Of course the poster I read on Hereford Station could've been wrong!

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=6#a1022

I concede, if the on-train posters do not have the same map as the leaflet then that may lead the uninformed to think that you can be PF'd from an un-staffed, un-TVM'd, un-PERTISed station like Hartlebury. Fair enough. Write to LM and ask them to change the on train posters.

Why are they extending it, when LM operate no trains which don't cross the penalty fare border? ???

I personally believe that the whole country should become a penalty far zone!

Huh, no comprende. "....no trains which don't....." Double negative.

Ok, all LM trains cross the border! So why are they extending it?

I am aware of Penalty Fares trains and Penalty Fares stations, but what is a Penalty Fare border? There's no reference to 'borders' in the legislation.

Worcester is in the zone. Malvern is not. Therefore there is a "border" in between.

All LM trains from Hereford go to Worcester. They therefore cross the "border" into the zone, are penalty fare trains so penalty fares apply throughout.

So why are LM extending the zone?

Aaaaaarrrrrghhh! No they can't. Btline, it is not some half-baked poster you may have seen that determines when a penalty fare can be applied. The conditions for PFs are clearly laid out both in an Act of Parliament and the conditions of carriage.

To be charged a penalty fare you must have boarded a designated penalty fares train at a designated penalty fares station. End. Of. Story.

It sounds like LM might have some posters out there that are badly worded or just plain wrong, assuming your interpretation of them is correct. However, these posters are just produced by some publicitiy department somewhere and do not change the rules.

And if they're extending the zone to include the Malverns, Colwall, Ledbury and Hereford it'll be so that they can legitimately try to deal with the large amount of ticketless travel yoofs that board (especially at Malvern) heading towards Worcester for a day of loafing about.

I can't see how anyone could justifying PFing people joining at a non-PF station. On the Exmouth branch-line several stations e.g. Polsloe Bridge have no way whatsoever of buying a ticket before boarding. I think it's fair to say whatever posters might say there is no way FGW could justify PFing people joining there. I'm not sure though that Penalty Zones have ever been applied, but I'm not a regular user.

In Bristol, there have been times in the past where the machine at Filton Abbey Wood was out of order so I wasn't able to buy a ticket beforehand and the guard never came round, so I had to ask for a ticket from the barrier staff. I've never had a problem doing this, including using a YP railcard discount .

Bit difficult given the large number of unstaffed stations that have no facilities whatever to buy tickets - or places like Moreton-in-Marsh, where on a busy morning you can queue for 10 or 15 minutes and still not get a ticket. Or should I just not get on the train and get to work an hour or more late?

Grecian, the stops on the Exmouth branch are a mixture of penalty and non-penalty, and not surprisingly Polsloe Bridge - once my local station and I don't think I ever saw another passenger on any occasion I used it - ain't one of them.

Hartlebury is in a penalty fare zone.

It's just that you can be PFed from that station!

.............................i can't even be bothered to answer again..............

I'll make it simple:

Look at the map.

Hartlebury is on it.

Therefore it is in the penalty fare zone.

So trains calling are penalty fare trains.

But there are no ticket facilities/ permits here.

So passengers are exempt from p fares.

Understand?

Great malvern is not on the map.

But the trains pass through Worcester and Stourbridge which are on the map.

So trains calling are penalty fare trains.

There are ticket facilities here.

So P fares apply.

THE ABOVE IS WHAT IS MADE CLEAR BY POSTERS AT STATIONS AND ONBOARD THE TRAINS. IF THE ABOVE IS INCORRECT IN ANY WAY, THE POSTERS ARE MISLEADING.

If I may intercede, here:

From the National Rail Enquiries site, at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/hby/details.html


It doesn't matter whether it is in the penalty fare zone: it's not a penalty fare station.

If you board a penalty fare train from a non-penalty fare station, you cannot be penalty fared.

Now, Btline, if your understanding of any poster is different, you really should take that up with those who produced such posters.

Only if you misinterpret them. I think you're the only one doing that on this forum? By the way, the LM leaflet on Penalty Fares has a clear disclaimer stating "this leaflet is only intended as a guide and should not be regarded as a complete and authoritative statement of the regulations". Do the posters on trains and stations have a similar disclaimer?

Appranrltly the posters are the same all over the UK. They are clearly not, as people fail to understand my arguments

Some people think the maps on the posters show non penalty fare area. Well, the ones in my area don't!

So I have no idea. And can you get rid of this thread I give up trying to explain to people. :'(


The posters say "if the train passes through the area shown on the map above then you're on a penalty fare train, and penalty fares apply."

How am I misunderstanding it?

I cant comment on the poster(s) you have seen, without seeing one myself. However Hartlebury is not a PF station. On no journey commencing from Hartlebury will you be PF'd. This is made clear on NRES and on the leaflet available for download on LM's website. The legislation on PF's also makes it clear that you will not be PF'd on a journey commencing at a station where no means of purchasing a ticket or Permit to Travel exist.
By all means ask the Mods to remove the thread; but I don't think being in a minority of one would hold much sway.....

Quite agree Chris - a letter to LM, who presumably are responsibly for the offending posters, would be a good idea, rather than telling us all the same thing again and again.

We get what you are saying, based on your interpretation of the posters in the West Midlands.

It's just that it is quite clear from the regulations people have cited here, the FGW zonal maps, etc, that penalty fares are linked to the station passengers are using, not what route the train is running, even if part of the journey is in a zone, or some stations on a route are covered by penalties and others aren't.

I can't speak for the on-train posters (which, if you're reading them on a train means you might already be eligible for a Penalty Fare of course), but here is the standard Penalty Fare poster as displayed in several locations around Worcester Shrub Hill, a London Midland operated station. No mention of zones. No mention of exclusions. No mention of anything much other than the fact that at the station concerned penalty fares are in operation.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2444/3841799387_3d1547b3c6_m.jpg)

Wise advice, btline clearly has no understanding of common sense and wishes to be pedantic over the smallest details.

The picture IndustyInsider posts is indeed the posters that appear at all Penalty Fare stations in the UK. Btline, if there is one at Hartlebury, then it is a mistake, however I assure you, there won't be one ;)

Today, I looked at the station/ on train posters, and they have been changed! (they have probably been different for ages, but I don't read them often)

This is because LM have got rid of the old CT ones.

They no longer state what I have been barking on about, but are as the photo above.

HOWEVER BEFORE LM CHANGED THEM, THEY DID STATE THIS! I thereby stand with what I was saying.

So I am sorry for going on about it, but:


...is uncalled for. I am not dotty or doddery (...doddery I am not!)

Until recently what I was saying was the case.

But as the posters have been changed it is no longer an issue.

Sorry.

Over and out.
 :'(

An important lesson learned (for us all!). Very important to check, check and recheck sources of information before being so adamant about something.

S'Ok Btline. We all still love you really. Even if you do have to press the enter key twice after every sentence...  ;)

 :-\

:-X

:-[