Great Western Coffee Shop

I know there are excellent value advance tickets available if you book in advance.   I could for example travel from Bristol-Harwich Parkestone Quay via London Paddington and the tube transfer for just ^14 single.  Which is not to be sniffed at.

But I am talking about the rip-off "walk on" fares available.  Whilst I know that these are allways more expensive than booking well in advance, the average travelling public are being ripped off with over the odds fares.

For example, a walk on Bristol-Birmingham New Street day return is a staggering ^42.10.  Crazy!!   Yet by buying a Bristol-Cheltenham return and a Cheltenham-Birmingham return the fare works out at a much more reasonable ^25.40. And quite a substantial saving.   This is what I do if I ever want to travel to Birmingham.  I certainly am not paying ^42.10!   Sometimes if I have more time to spare I even travel via Worcester Foregate Street, and the fare works out at just ^17.70 return.

And another example.

Bristol-London Paddington.  Walk on day return fare a staggering ^49 return.  Yet by splitting the tickets - Bristol-Didcot Parkway, Didcot Parkway-London Paddington, the fare works out a little cheaper at ^37 return.

So if rail companies such as First Great Western and Arriva Cross Country have fares from A-B and B-C which works out considerably cheaper in total than the A-C fares, why are the A-C fares not priced accordingly?   A passenger asking for a day return from Bristol-Birmingham at a ticket desk or machine should therefore be charged ^25.40, and NOT ^42.10!!!!  Which is getting on for allmost double the price it should be!


There are a lot of average joe public out there who do not know about these "hidden" ways to get more reasonably priced fares, and are paying way over the odds for their travels.   So why are the train companies getting away with this?  Can't the goverment act to put a stop to these practices?

Try this website:

http://www.splitfare.co.uk/

UPDATE: Since ATOC are selfish <beep>, the website has been axed, so you have to do it the slow way!

And splitting Didcot will soon allow you to travel on the first off peak train (as aside to the new "super off peak" time at 10.00!!)

Ye it could go in the Fare's Fair section if it would be better there.  But I didn't know whether to post it in there or not, as thought that was more specifically for FGW's fares.  I'm talking about fares all over the UK really.

Thanks very much for posting, XPT, and thanks for commenting, Btline!

On balance, I think this topic is better suited here, so I've moved it, while it's in its early stages.  It may expand into wider issues, outside the FGW area, in due course, but in the meantime, any discussion about fares is perhaps easiest for our other readers to find here!

C.  ;)

If you are going BRI-BHM via WOF cheaper still to split at Bromsgrove. Total of ^15.30 for the two Off Peak Day returns. Just ensure you board a via Bromsgrove LM service to BHM from WOF and not a via Kidderminster. Added advantage that if you return in the evening peak from BHM you can catch the 1730 or 1830 XC services to Cardiff and change at Cheltenham Spa. Both these trains call at Bromsgrove and XC's Off Peak Day return afternoon restrictions do not apply to the split tickets. LM set the fare to Bromsgrove and FGW set the fare from Bromsgrove to BRI.

And

If you want an even cheaper day return option to London from Bristol, buy a Shirehampton (SHH) to London Waterloo (WAT) route Warminster/Salisbury, Off Peak Day return(CDR). ^27.10. Travel may start or end at an intermediate station so starting your journey at BRI on this ticket is permitted. The time restrictions on a CDR from SHH are very ambiguous and I've never had problems using this fare if I travel to WAT on the restrictions applied to a CDR from BRI. That is arrival not before 1000. Another bonus is no evening restrictions on the return. Ideal for 7-8 hours in the capital although 2 hours 45 mins+ each way journey time makes it a very long, if cheap, day out.

If you think Bristol to London Off Peak fare is expensive try looking at Swindon to London.  This is ^40 soon to be ^48 , the Super Off Peak remains at ^40.  This is for a journey of 1 hour with a frequency of at least 4 trains per hour.  This is not the type of journey I would expect to have to book in advance to travel at a reasonable price.

Agreed, however it is the oh so wonderful British Rail that we have to blame for that!

Since BR/NSE have gone, isn't it about time we ended these fare anomalies? Worcester's Off Peak Return fare is cheaper than Swindon's! Swindon's should be reduced to around Oxford's fare.

It's rather simplistic to dismiss the ^49 off-peak return BRI - PAD as "staggering". Whilst I'd certainly baulk at the "anytime" price, ^49 for a journey of that length at that speed seems pretty reasonable to me, especially compared to the bills you would rack up in petrol/parking etc were you driving it.

Not withstanding it's soon to be ^59. As a non-driver I cannot compare the costs on a like for like basis, however what I baulk at is the 'staggering' 20% increase. Imagine the furore if petrol/diesel increased by 20% overnight on 6th September.

Thanks for those tips Bignosemac.   I thought splitting the tickets at Worcester was the cheapest way, but apparantly not!  Bromsgrove it will be from now on.   

Yes I knew about the route via Salisbury.  Have done it many a time when I couldn't get a cheap enough ticket on the direct route.  I didn't know though if you got a ticket from Shirehampton(instead of Bristol TM) it is ^2.80 cheaper!

On what basis do you make the statement: "should therefore be charged ^25.40, and NOT ^42.10!!!! " ? Presumeably on the very scientific premise that it is cheaper.
I could equally well make the statement that the "correct" fare should be ^42.10 - which the "bean counters" would probably agree with as well.


These fares aren't "hidden" that well, plenty of people seem to be able to find them !

The problem I have with calling for the "government" to act, is that this is far more likely to cause the removal of the cheap advance tickets and the loss of the ability to "split", than a decrease in fares generally. It would not take someone very long to enact these two !

The cheap tickets are aimed at getting people to travel on the off peak (less crowded) trains or to entice people out of their cars. I have spent much of this so called "summer" travelling around by train at some very cheap prices. I had a very pleasant day at Paignton Zoo - the car park ticket at Westbury cost me more than my train ticket !  I am not naive enough to demand that these cheap fares become the norm.

The railways are now very similar to the airlines - no two passengers paying the same fare. This is hardly a valid case for saying that the "correct" fare to Alicante is 99p !
There are lots of anomolies in the fares structure, don't complain about them - use them ..................or lose them !

If the total cost of fares from Bristol-Cheltenham and Cheltenham-Birmingham works out at ^25.40, then the Bristol-Birmingham return fare SHOULD be ^25.40 and NOT ^42.10.   ^42.10 is absolute daylight robbery for such a short journey, there's no doubt about it.   Train companies are cashing in on popular journeys, and it should NOT be allowed.  Yes of course they need to make a profit, but ripping passengers off by hiking up the prices of journeys should not be allowed.   People who are unaware of split ticketing are paying way over the odds for their journeys.  For example passengers shouldn't be paying ^42.10 for a return journey to Birmingham, they should be paying ^25.40.

To me, if I was quoted a fare of ^42.10 for a Bristol-Birmgingham return, it would be absolute NO NO for me.  Ridiculously overpriced.  Yet ^25.40 is OK and I'd be content to pay that sort of money for a journey of that length(in terms of how far it is).   

Perhaps you can answer this question for me Moonrakerz.  If a Bristol-Cheltenham, and Cheltenham-Birmingham return works out in total as ^25.40.  Can you give any good valid reasons as to why then do Arriva Cross Country charge ^42.10 for a Bristol-Birmingham return???



When I emailed Cross Country this query a few months back.   Allthough they did say that split ticketing is OK, they failed to answer my query as to why Bristol-Birmingham is priced so much more than the total price of Bristol-Cheltenham, and Cheltenham-Birmingham fares.  Similarly when I emailed FGW a similar query, I got a babble of a reply back which didn't really answer my query.

The sooner the government or DFT or whoever acts on this the better. 

Another example of ridiculously over-priced fares.

I was at Temple Meads last week collecting my pre-booked tickets.  There was a young lady in front of me, and I saw on the screen that she was getting a return to Sheffield.  The cheapest option at that time(before 8am) was a staggering ^135 Anytime Return!!!!  To which she did actually select and pay.   If she had booked in advance she could have got it considerably cheaper, probably cheaper still if she split the tickets Bristol-Cheltenham, Cheltenham-Birmingham, Birmingham-Sheffield.   However, even not booking in advance the total cost of a Bristol-Sheffield day return leaving Bristol at 8am can work out at around ^75.   Which isn't exactly fantastic value, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Bristol-Sheffield return.  So the Bristol-Sheffield PEAK "walk on" fare should be priced accordingly at (approx) ^75 and not ^135.  Passengers should not be paying over the odds for journeys when it is not necessary.

When I last came back from Birmingham to Bristol(on the direct route), when the ticket inspector came round instead of me just giving in my Birmingham-Cheltenham ticket, I gave in both my Birmingham-Cheltenham and Cheltenham-Bristol ticket.  She gave me a bit of dissaproving look!  Train companies don't want passengers to know about these ways of getting cheaper fares see!

I think the next time I travel to Birmingham at short notice, instead of getting the tickets from the machine.  I will go into the ticket desk and ask for a Bristol-Cheltenham(or maybe Bromsgrove for the even cheaper but longer way round) day return, and a Cheltenham(or Bromsgrove)-Birmingham return.  And see how they react!  Of course if I asked for just a day return to Birmingham, they'd say "That'll be ^42.10 please!".   

No I can't, someone in possession of a lot more information than you or I, about costings, calculated these fares. How about one possibility ?
Someone noticed that there were many more passenger journeys made between Bristol and and Birmingham and the reduced fares to/from Cheltenham were to attract more custom on those routes. Any loss of revenue on through passengers "splitting" was more than made up by the extra traffic gained on the other two routes.

Your argument loses more credibility as it progresses. I can buy a can of baked beans from my local Morrisons for 35p, the same can of beans is 47p in my local One Stop. Who is ripping me off ?
Following your logic One Stop is. It is highly likely, however, that Morrisons are actually making more profit per can than One Stop, due to their much increased buying power. Using your logic all beans should be at 35p. Therefore the One Stop corner shop cannot make a profit and closes down. I can no longer buy a can of beans at 10 at night (Morrisons shut at 8) apart from which, now that Morrisons have the monopoly their beans now cost 40p.
Very useful !


The government should do something about it .................................................

Well I'm not going to argue you with any further.   We are not talking about different shops selling cans of beans at different prices.  We are talking about train fares.  Fares from A-C(i.e Bristol-Birmingham) should be no more expensive in total than A-B and B-C fares.  Simple as that.

More and more of the travelling British public NEED to know about this split ticketing sooner rather than later.  To get the cheaper fares they are entitled to.

I'll personaly stick with the Bristol-Bromsgrove/Bromsgrove-Birmingham(thanks to Bignosemac's tip) to get a return to Birmingham for ^15.30 return.  Arriva Cross Country can shove their stupid ^42.10 fare.

I would tend to agree with you - EXCEPT - the end result will not be reducing the through walk on fare - it will be to  increase the splits  until it matches the 42.10 through

happened to me earlier this year when I used to split at oxford

Frankly, I'd rather keep the loop hole than have all the fares rise to the through ticket equivalent.

XC long distance fares are also weird because Bristol (and Reading) are the southern boundary of their 'Offpeak' restrictions. Start at Taunton and the Offpeak is available all day to stations Derby (IIRC) and beyond...

Paul

I don't think it's actually been answered on this thread ... so here goes.    The reason that A to B plus B to C  fares (added together) are often cheaper that A to C is because the  A to B and / or B to C fares often have origins back in local fares, whereas A to C fares are often "Intercity" - fares that were premium priced when those super new 125 m.ph. trains were introduced!

Didcot, Worcester, even Exeter via Salisbury are old "Network South East" lines.  But Swindon was never in Network South East and was always InterCity.

I am not going to be drawn into which fare is the "right" one, save to confirm that you can go from A to C using an A to B and a B to C ticket, provided that you train stops at B (there are some special circumstances such as one of the tickets being a season ticket when you can use a train that does NOT stop at B).  But I will say that if you tell the bloke behind the counter that you are going on the next Chippenham train (one that calls at Didcot) and ask him what the cheapest way to do it is, he is likely to lie to you and sell you a P to C and not a P to D followed by a D to C.  That's not intended to be a criticism of the bloke - my understanding is that the staff are instructed not to offer split ticketing, and I can help thinking that if they DID try to be helpful in this way, a lot of people would think they were being ripped off.

I agree with FallenAngel that from a purely personal viewpoint, it would be a shame to loose all these ways of getting affordable travel ... and that any 'corrections' are likely to result in the average payment made rising; whether that would be compensated by a loss of traffic is a moot point.  I remain much happier buying a Melksham - Trowbridge followed by a Trowbridge - Waterloo (just over 30 pounds) rather than a Melksham - Waterloo (74 pounds), but that's a hard combination / situation to explain to visitors!

One thing I've noticed is that in the FGW region particularly the off-peak day returns are much cheaper than off-peak returns (Cheap Day v Saver in old money). E.g. Exeter - Plymouth is 7.50 day return compared to 14.50 monthly, which is only 30p cheaper than 2 singles. FGW have reduced many 'local' fares though.

I think that's noticeable across Intercity areas - if you make a day trip where day returns aren't available, buy day returns between stopping stations i.e. where trains actually stop and you can save money. If you travel on a saver style basis, the savings are far less. I managed Bristol-Sheffield earlier this year for ^30 with a YPR splitting it 4 times and Bristol-Macclesfield last year splitting 3 times for ^27 (day tripping to watch the mighty Exeter City trounce Macclesfield/clinch promotion!). That wasn't booking in advance but paying on the day. There are certainly good places to split tickets - Bristol-London is cheaper if you split it at Didcot as you can buy 2 day returns (but make sure you get the Didcot stopper or it'll cost you a lot more).

I think the rule is the booking clerk is under no obligation to tell you about cheaper split tickets. If you ask about a specific fare however, they are obliged to sell you it. I just think of it as a reward for doing the research.

Correct :)

I think it's important to remember one thing about split fares, it's best just to keep quite about it and reap the benefits! because if the train companies "do something about it" then they're not going to reduce the end to end fare, they will increase the inbetween fares!
A good example of how to save nearly ^45.00 on Penzance-Birmingham, the SOS fare is ^105.00, but (off-Peak mind) if you do a Pnz-Exd CDS, Exd-Tau CDS, Tau-Bri CDS, Bri-Cnm SDS and Cnm-Bhm CDS then it works out at ^60.90, every direct train stops at all those stations so its valid.

One point about the Bristol-Bromsgrove-Birmingham split, the train must stop at Bromsgrove for the ticket to be valid, do any AXC services between Bristol and Brum stop there???

Re: Bristol-Bromsgrove-Birmingham. I only pointed out that you can return from Brum in the evening peak with a split CDR on two AXC services, changing at Cheltenham. 1730 and 1830 both stop at Bromsgrove. No such luck on the out journey. You have to go via Worcester for that.

This route has been quoted in the railway press on many occasions, presumably because the stopping patten always includes a call at Cheltenham.

On privatisation the BRI - BHM fare was priced by Virgin, the BRI to Chelt by Wales and West and Chelt to BHM by Central trains. Over the coming years the companies altered their prices by varying amounts leading to the difference in prices. AXC has inherited the old Virgin fares, FGW now have the old wales and west fares and (AFAIK) LM now price the old Central fare.

One point to note is that the split tickets were priced as stopping services by the operator wheras Virgin priced higher due to the Express nature of it's services and increased operating costs, through on board catering, higher fuel costs due to express running and also higher charges for the leasing of rolling stock.

I have just checked, and the "split fares cheaper" anomaly for Birmingham goes back to BR days (I checked the 1991 fare manual)

I have looked at this again, and the total journey can work out at ^61.70 return.  Via a series of four sets of return tickets.

Bristol-Cheltenham
Cheltenham-Birmingham
Birmingham-Derby
Derby-Sheffield

This price is based on leaving Bristol on the 0800 service, where the return fare to Cheltenham is ^13.40 at this time of day.  Get the 0830 departure and the Bristol-Cheltenham return fare drops to just ^7.40 return.  Total cost Bristol-Sheffield return just ^55.70 return.   That's one hell of a saving on the through Bristol-Sheffield return fare of ^135!   Save even more by getting the 0900 departure, and the total cost is right down to ^46.90.   These fares can be achived at short notice, by booking via the internet on the night before travel.  Can still be achieved on the day(for a morning departure), but it would mean getting out at the split ticket destinations, buying the next ticket and waiting for the next train.

Yeah I guess that explains it.    It's still very expensive though nevertheless.  ^42 for a day return from Bristol-Birmingham.  WHen one considers it's just about double the distance of Bristol-Cardiff which is priced very reasonably at ^8.80 return.     The expensive fares though do put a lot of people off travelling by train.   For instance I was at work several years back(shortly before I knew about the split ticketting technique) and a group of girls wanted to goto Birmingham for the day on a weekday.   When they enquired about the trainfare on the phone and found out it was ^33 return(even booking in advance) they could hardly believe it.  They didn't want to pay that sort of money.  And they ended up going by coach instead, which was a fair amount cheaper.    So Virgin Trains lost the revenue of these group of girls because their fares were just too expensive.  Whereas if they were priced a bit more sensibly(i.e. ^25 return back then(2003)), then maybe they could have got the bookings from those group of girls, and indeed many other passengers.  If their fares were dropped to more sensible levels, then maybe the train companies could actually earn more revenue than they do now??

Using my copy of NFM03 I came out with totally different prices for this journey....although generally in the ball-park of ^45-^55 for a day return BRI-SHF splitting at CNM, BHM, and DBY. I should point out though that there is no need to disembark and buy tickets at the split points as XPT states. If you know what tickets you want you can buy them from any manned station at the start of your journey. The only consideration for split-tickets is to ensure that the service(s) you board call(s) at the chosen split stations. No need to get off! Therefore, with the right combination of tickets (bearing in mind time validities etc) You can travel from BRI-SHF on the 0830 direct service for a lot less than the ^135 SOR you would normally be sold.

Yes I stand corrected on that Bignosemac.   No need to faff about disembarking, buy tickets, wait for next train, etc.  Just get the tickets at the ticket office on the station you're departing from.   You would get a surprised looking ticket office clerk though asking for three/four(or even more) sets of tickets.  But what the hell!   You just don't want to paying ridiculuously stupid overpriced fares like ^135 return, when you could get it around ^80 cheaper!

Thanks again for the tips Bignosemac.   Particularly useful to know I can travel back from Birmingham on the 1730 or 1830 service via the direct line for just ^15.30 return walk-on fare.

 There are ways if you are in the know that you can reduce the cost of your rail travel, and I'm all for that.

 What I am 'bitter and twisted' about is that tomorrow's price hike effects mainly those who can least afford it.