Great Western Coffee Shop

Currently on my way back to London on the 15:35 from Newton Abbot, and have had a bit of a bad experience unfortunately.

 I went to the buffet car between NTA & EXD and asked for a Diet Coke and a still water - I was given both but upon presenting my First Class ticket (not a Weekend First upgrade) I rather briskly had the Diet Coke taken away from me and replaced with another bottle of water.

I felt a bit annoyed at the rather rude service I had received from the member of staff, so when the train manager came round a little while ago I complained. He assured me that the member of staff was a nice person but was under a lot of pressure as it's a busy train, he also exxplained to me that Diet Cokes were no longer part of the complimentary service and it was fruit juices instead, but I wasn't even given the option to pay for the Diet Coke by the member of catering staff.

Have I been told the correct information? If so, when did this change come into force, seems a bit silly to me.

It's correct. FGW's First Class is woeful when compared to other TOCs!

e.g. Virgin where you get free alc, soft drinks, hot drinks, cold meal or hot meal (depedning on time of day), Wifi, newspsper, guaranteed 2+1 seating, free headphones for onboard radio system.

I would go standard in future.

Weekends:

Water, hot chocolate, tea and coffee and biscuits only.

Much better selection on weekdays (but not coke)

I'd ignore btlines advice and stay in First. Its a much nicer environment.

Virgin's offering is all part of the cost of the ticket and in their franchise agreement I believe. I would be surprised if you still get that level of service once the new franchise starts in a few years time whoever wins it. Hope I'm wrong though.

True, it's a better environment. But is getting a leather seat worth the (high) cost? If you want a guaranteed seat and a relaxing environment, go First. If you want freebies, don't.


NB: I can get a Virgin First Class ticket for cheaper than standard class return on FGW. ;) But yes, that's my area, fair enough. ;D

And for regular travellers in the west midlands, virgins first season tickets are usually priced around the same as a FGW first season into london - and they are every half hour and much quicker!

Don't you mean every 20 minutes? ;)

I only go First Class when I book early and can get a reasonable price ticket - and particularly when I know standard will be packed!

FC is also very good for the leg room, and more room for the netbook!

I could've sworn that I was offered soft drinks (cans) on both my journeys into and out of London in FC in the last month though (apart from this one).

Next thing you'll know they'll stop you taking your own food on the train, even stuff you've bought at an FGW station!

(Oh, and you are right about the wi-fi, taken me ages to post this travelling through Berkshire on a GPRS signal!)

Have you tried SWT ?

or NXEA?

Your meant to show your first class ticket before ordering comps at the buffet, they usually announce this.

The wholse point is - the lack of decent soft drinks is ludicrous

as I understand it - the cans were removed because of small numbers of people who were pocketing 6-8 numerous cans on a trip to take with them

Simple answer

Customer host pops them before giving them out

Why throw the baby out with the bath water

I do not drink coffee or tea - and im on a diet - so the only option FREE is water

What is wrong with free pop - even if its out of a bottle and poured like the OJ

So do people expect that the virgin offer will really drop after this franchise ends? Assuming virign get it again?

What's stopping you buying something?

The items may well be complimentary, however they are still budgeted for, and paid for from 1st class revenues. They sure as hell ain't complimentary to First Great Western. FGW have to pay for them. Removing the fizzy pop is therefore a cost cutting exercise. I note there are also no sandwiches provided in the first class lounge at Paddington any longer. Bristol Temple Meads no longer has a first class lounge. (Cardiff only kept it's lounge so as not to upset Welsh politicians). There is also no longer complimentary wine on Friday evenings. So all this has resulted in a saving to FGW. Has that saving been passed on the the 1st class passenger, has it hell!
I'm with FallenAngel on this one. There is a steady erosion of 1st class as a distinct product, all in the name of cost cutting. I only travel 1st class on a few occasions per year and it is getting less worth the extra each time I travel. Offering the extras is part of the enticement of paying for a first class ticket; downgrading the product without passing on any saving to the passenger just means less people willing to pay the extra; meaning less passengers in first class; meaning less staff needed.....a slow downward spiral that will ultimately lead to redundancies and a single class inter-city train service.
Oh and how much someone earns a day is irrelevent, that was just a cheap shot, flamingo. And invoking all that tosh about human rights.....come on already!

"Complimentary" or "Free" always worries me.  It usually means "included in what you pay" or "free at the point of delivery".  Ask local council officers in the public transport section about free bus travel for pensioners, and they'll confirm that it's only free at the point of delivery - that it's actually paid for through the tax system.  I think you'll also find that such 'free at the point of delivery' systems tend to run away with the budget - call for a bottomless pocket - as the majority of consumers will not give consideration to the cost when their consumption makes no difference to their personal budget.

Flamingo - I think your logic is flawed. If you consider such drinks to be truely complimentary and not included in the cost  of the First Class ticket, are you happy for some non-paying passengers who are seated in first class (and for whom you have called up the BTP to the next station) to be given as much as they wish from the first class trolley? And are you happy that complimentary refreshments should be available to anyone who has to walk through first class for operational reasons - for example just after joining the train at a short platform where they have to get in at a first class door?

It's quite another question as to what should / should not be bundled with a First Class fare. Logically, the removal of something from the bundle without adding something of equal value and uptake back would be - in effect - a rise in the price, but how significant that is will vary from person to person.

I'm fortunate enough to be given the privilege of travelling First Class on a roughly weekly basis, thanks to an enlightened employer who considers that senior execs are more effective if given the opportunity to continue to work on paperwork or lap/palm-tops during longer journeys, and arrive at their destination comparatively rested, un-cramped and refreshed.

If I were an employer myself, paying for the service which the ToC is offering, I would expect to see desks, power, comfortable seats and basic refreshments freely available (and by "basic" I mean bottled water, teas, coffees and snacks), all provided as an intrinsic part of the enhanced package of facilities on offer.

Personally I think FGW have it about right as it stands at the moment. It's perfectly reasonable to charge for enhanced items above and beyond those mentioned above, such as soft drinks, chilled water, sandwiches and wine (plus hot snacks on some journeys).

If the TOC considers that offering more in First Class brings more people onto the service, then it's entirely up to them to set the ticket price at a level which enables them to offer those inducements. And to remove them when either they are content that enough people are paying for First Class, or if they consider they are no longer affordable given the present ticket price. I'm neither going to refuse extra enticements if they're offered (I used to thoroughly enjoy my glass of red wine on a Friday evening!) nor am I going to grumble when they are removed.

I have though noticed though that on an increasing number of journeys I've made recently there's been two "customer hosts" steering the trolley up and down through First Class. I hesitate to mention anything which even hints at staff reductions for fear of unintentionally upsetting anyone reading this, but seriously.... if money's that tight, isn't there potentially a saving to be made there? Does it really require two people to man one trolley, even on particularly busy trains?

What do you think we all are - MPs ?   ;D

All my expenses come out of my own pocket - something that a full time employed union protected bod may not fully grasp.  So yes, I do buy diet coke but that comes to an extra 3-4 per day on top of my first class ticket.

Tell me what else is on the trolley - other than water - that is calorie free if you dont drink tea/coffee?  I know its a minor point but its the constant chip chip chip of the complimentary services that pisses people off when the fares just go up and up.

Sorry guys but the reason first class is no longer special is because of the amount of cheap first class tickets availiable, means more bums on seats but less revenue for the TOC's so less money to spend on the freebies, lately i've worked numerous trains and when going through FC I've seen in excess of 30 passengers ALL of which were on advance singles for around ^30 each (from Plymouth/Exeter!!) thats less than most people have paid in standard! If we want first class to be what it used to be-exclusive, then the FC advance needs to go, and then you'd all moan about that! I appreciate the fact that on the Cotswold line there are no advance tickets but on the majority of routes there are.

Well ... your post (and the part I quoted) seemed to suggest that the items weren't 'really' a part of what the First Class ticket holder paid for, so were in some other category.

A plumber at my house ... offered a cup of tea. Explains he can't drink tea because of an allergy and asks for water.  My response?  "Yes of course - or can you drink coffee or something else". And from personal experience, I know that other people act this way too.  I have an allergy - one particular foodstuff that's found in lot of deserts; a polite "no that you, I can't" and it's rare - VERY rare - for an alternative not be offered.  And a family relative who would be really ill with fruit juice - we will ALWAYS provide a alternative. Real situations, both. In a professional environment (such as a train should be), the alternative if often better - sometimes embarrasingly so.   But I never intended to suggest that a cup of tea should be upped to beer and sandwiches, and I don't think that anyone else did.


OK; I'm too rarely in first to be able to express an opinion on that. But you have the issue there that by dramatically changing the offering, even at the same price level, you will tick off some people who will be noisy about what they have lost and please an equal number who really won't be as vocal.  What replaced the Friday afternoon wine that we've heard so much about?


It may be to you, but you have caught me before on somthing that I thought was obvious and turned out not to be, so I read what you say at face value, rather than guess at something else :-\ [not sure if that is the right emoticon!]

Square root of sweet FA!

I miss the free coke cos it goes down well with a paid for vodka from the trolley. Now I have to pay ^1.40 for a 500ml bottle.....which means I now need 2 50ml vodkas to wash down all that pop ;) ;D Can't do screwdrivers, cos concentrated OJ gives me bad acid reflux.....

I find the current offering quite nice.

The fruit juice is very nice, and i'm quite a fan of those strong crisps they do. The only thing missing from first class, is wifi. But I can't see that happening. If FGW are being forced to raise already rip-off priced tickets, then the finances must be taking a battering ;)

The tumbleweed was in evidence today when I stuck my head in the door at Cardiff's first class lounge. Why not FGW have a door entry system like VWC at Wolverhampton and NXEC at Doncaster? Show your vaild 1st class ticket to the camera to gain entry. No permanent staffing needed.

I never realised it was such a hard life travelling first class...

Just be glad Michael O'Leary isn't interested in running trains, otherwise he would have you paying to bring your laptops on board, never mind getting 'free' wifi, drinks and snacks.

I think the problem is in people's definition of FC.

When I started this five years ago, FC was often full at Oxford - even until October last year before I went to the emerald isle - it was still pretty full.  This is morning.  i remember in the evenings, many a time having to, shock horror, share a table with more than one other person - on many occasions up to four - as far as reading or oxford.

Since I've come back, it is noticable that FC is often a grave yard.  Clearly the recession and credit crunch has a part to play but I would argue that most people's definition of FC is........

1. Free refreshments - and yes that also includes pop
2. At seat service
3. And arguably - some form of sustenance on longer journeys

With the ever increasing price of the tickets - and by this I mean peak and walk on - i suspect more and more people are opting not to pay it. 

i wold never buy an FC for SWT - unless I was on one of the major commuter routes into london - I certainly did not when going to egham/staines - no need as there was no service as such.   I wont if my next contract is bracknell. 

If the argument is, more and more first class is by advance and cheaper than standard then they are pricing the service appropriately, then how can they justify ANY trains with no advance fairs when I suspect other than one or two peak services, FC is not full anymore. 

From experience in the last coupe of weeks, FC to and from Swansea has been sparsely populated - never had to share a table with even one person.

Is this part of a plan to phase out FC?  because if they keep raising the prices an reducing the service, there will be few who will use it other than advance.

What they should be doing in hard time is offering FC tickets at a slight increase from SC but with the same service (and i'm not talking virgin level here - just previous when there was fruit juice, tea, coffee, pop, crisps, nuts and free cheap wine on a friday - many other than the hardest hit will go for it so they will have more bums on seats at more than SC - remember these are probably punters who would not pay full FC prices.  Then when the economy picks up..............some of those who are used to FC will be loathe to go back.  They may have some new loyal customers.

And the analogy with Micheal O'leary is fatuous - he only operates third class and has no concept of even standard.  There was a report recently where people are actually stopping using the likes of oleary's aluminium cans on the basis of they are sick of the money grabbing bastard

Bear in mind it's summer at the moment. First class to the west country on Saturdays is always well loaded, they must do a roaring trade with the new higher priced weekend first!

I was only joshing about O'Leary, but even British Airways seem to be adopting his approach to customer service on short-haul now. Even FGW have been flagging up their luggage policy on the website home page lately - presumably in a vain attempt to hold back a summer tide of people towing two of those suitcases as big as they are http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=4105 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=4105)

There's a recession on. I expect if you looked at British Rail's figures from the early 1990s, you would see exactly the same trends, falling first class travel, full stop, as businesses - who buy most FC tickets - cut back or go out of business altogether and commuter traffic into London drops off.

Do you think FGW are immune? If there's less money coming in from FC, they are going to look at their offer and it's unlikely to get more generous - as whatever 'freebies' are on offer are unlikely to make anything but a marginal difference to the numbers travelling FC. As far as I can recall, FA, your key reasons for paying the extra are a table and room to spread out or sleep - not whether there was a 'free' chilled Diet Coke.

Am I alone in finding this thread bizarre? Is it really that important? I'm afraid I just don't see it.

Note - I didnt start it

No - the soft drinks are NOT a major factor however - had my next 18 months been in central london and not the thames valley I would not be going FGW - that is about 11K from one person alone less what they spend on non freebies.  From where I am to the TV  I have no choice - but it is an irritant to a coke addict

Doesnt mean im  not going to complain and gripe though!
 ;)

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you vacman, but it's a bit rough to blame "first class no longer being special" on advance ticket holders. It's the only way I can afford to travel in first and be there to raise the tone, for a start...  ;) Seriously though, FGW are pretty sharp at "yield management", so you won't find many Advance tickets available on trains where FC can be filled up at full fares. It's just a question of it being better to get a heavily discounted fare for the seats than run empty.

And tip-toeing very carefully back into the minefield that is the issue of complimentaries, there's an interesting comparison to be made with Amtrak on the Northeast Corridor here. There's effectively a two-tier service, the Acela express (which doesn't count because it's marginally quicker but vastly more expensive) and the Northeast Regional (cheaper, almost as fast and loco-hauled  :) ) On the Regional services you can pay a 50% premium on your fare to travel "business class" (Amtrak has an annoying habit of pretending to be an airline). This gets you virtually indistinguishable accommodation (in fact, sometimes they use a coach-class vehicle and just tape a "business class" sticker on by the door, classy) and a miserly single free drink*. I know whose first class offering I prefer!

*for the record, you can get a diet pepsi though

And the same applies to pretty much any rail journey of whatever class between most places in this country, unless you feel inclined to drive somewhere else - usually a fair distance - to use a different route. And unless you've got time to burn, or like sitting on top of an engine, who would choose SWT first class over FGW between Exeter and London, whatever the freebies, if indeed SWT offer any? Hence why I find the thread bizarre.

SWT don't offer any extras in FC.

It still is not Coke though!  OK, perhaps we shouldn't go there  :D

Whilst you mention it, as FallenAngel was singing the praises of Virgin, does she approve of Virgin Cola?

Poked my head in Cardiff lounge during Monday morning 'peak'. One 'suit' in there. Of course it's August and we are in the teeth of a recession, so that may explain a lack of patronage.
The unstaffed lounges I have encountered all have self service complimentary refreshments. As for the host being there to dispense refreshments, that may be the case at Cardiff, as it was at Bristol, but it doesn't happen at Paddington or other TOCs lounges. Bristol was the only lounge I ever encountered where my coffee (from a machine) was prepared for me. All that is needed in terms of staffing is a door entry system linked to station staff, one or two visits a day to check stock levels and an inclusion of the first class lounge in cleaning rounds. Of course adding these duties to existing station staff may prove difficult, particularly if that self confessed communist, Bob Crow, hears about it!

My "complementary" experience today:-

Boarded at Westbury for Plymouth: Gasping for a coffee: went to buffet (empty), showed ticket asked for a coffee and a biscuit - given coffee, told bikkie could be obtained from trolley when it came round. Trolley arrived after almost an hour - having come all the way from the previous coach ! One more coffee, two (very nice) oatmeal bikkies. I was sole occupant of quiet First Class coach all the way.

Return:
Told by guard no catering staff from Newquay to Exeter (I boarded at Plymouth). Trolley will be available "after Exeter". Catering staff do arrive at St Davids, then told no trolley until after Westbury - not much good to me ! Walk to buffet to find queue half way down next coach ! Return to seat, wait, return to buffet, queue now within buffet car, get served just after Taunton. Lady, trying to redeem FGW's name ? gives me coffee plus 4 different food items.

Don't know where they got the buffet coach from, seating at end was a disgusting brown velour !

4 different trains today, 3 were 11 - 15 mins late. Only one on time, Westbury to Warminster - which started at Westbury !
At Westbury (outbound) the station staff were trying to get people with seat reservations to wait at approximately the right place on the platform. Good idea - BUT, most people were in the front of the train (A - C) and, understandably, didn't want to go and stand right down the platform in the driving rain.

That would have been an ex-MML 'Project Rio' 408** buffet car.

Ta !

I consider the reduction in complimentary items to be a bit mean, but is not a major concern of mine.
If I want a can of soft drink, buying one one board is not going to hurt me, and if I want to save money, buy at the station.

My concern is more the steady reduction in service offered to first class passengers, I would prefer free soft drinks, but dont really mind paying if it is served at the seat, which is becoming less frequent.

On longer trips I would like to buy a proper meal, every timetable change brings more catering reductions, the traveling chef service is a very poor substitute for a restaurant, with the advertised table service seldom appearing.

Which I think is the crux of the argument and at the root of the more petty gripes about the removal of soft drinks.

I havent - I dont think - complained about the first class service too much in the past - yes its never been as good at virgins but it was ok.

Having been a daily long distance commuter until end of october, going away for six months, then returning in May to daily commuting it was immediately noticable the drop in the service offered.  From more trains with no trolley, to the (for me anyway) reduction in the quality of the offerings and the removal of friday wine.  And what I found even more patronising was the signs that were up saying it was to provide more healthy offerings.  Well passengers on a friday night out of london dont necesarily want healthy after a long week.  Which was why, on a lighter note, one night there was almost a riot when the temp customer host decided to bring out the trolley stacked with fruit where the wine would normally have been - she was going to do the wine as an after thought.  She had that idea wiped clear before she even made her way out of F!

These reductions would be what exactly? Until the recent withdrawals, FGW's full restaurant car services had been provided on the same handful of trains for a good many years (ie, if you weren't on the West Country or South Wales routes, there wasn't one).

They are spending a lot of money on ensuring every HST has some sort of proper buffet car after abandoning the trolley nonsense. Meanwhile, XC is getting rid of buffets altogether. NX has trashed previously excellent service on East Coast and the Norwich expresses and if you're not in First on Virgin, you won't find anything comparable to Travelling Chef in the 'shop' in standard.

Travelling Chef is available to all passengers on board, even if those in standard do (gasp!) have to get off their feet to get it. Unless one takes a charitable view of what's left of the once excellent GNER provision after the depredations of NX's stewardship, FGW is probably offering a wider range of freshly cooked food to all comers on far more long-haul trains than any other operator these days.

The most recent timetable change saw the withdrawal of the restaurant on the up Golden Hind, now downgraded to a travelling chef.
The previous timetable change saw the withdrawal of the restaurant on the 15-00 from Plymouth to London.
The next timetable change is expected to contain the withdrawal of the last remaining restaurant on an up train (12.55 from Plymouth)
This restaurant service has already been deleted from the timetable, presumably to dicourage use, though it still runs.
As recently as 2001 , there were 7 trains to the West country, and 7 return services with restaurants, together with several to/from Wales.
Therefore in about 8/9 years 14 restaurants have reduced to 2, at very roughly the rate of one restaurant withdrawn per timetable change.

The travelling chef is bit better than nothing, but a poor subststute for a proper restaurant.
Likewise the recently introduced microbuffets are a bit better than nothing, but a poor substitute for the proper buffets formerly provided.

But eight of those restaurants were still running up until May (plus the South Wales services), so that was six lost in the previous eight years and assuming the workings were paired, due to the need to have the chef and stewards available, that would make three pairs cut over eight years.

According to the Pullman dining page on the FGW website, the service is still available on both the 12.00 and 12.55 from Plymouth, as well as the 18.03 and 19.03 from London - I presume the crews do actually announce their presence to people on the lunchtime trains. And unless the evening restaurants go too, they will still have to get the crews up to London somehow, so why would they axe the lunchtime service if the staff are there and being paid?

Just as I am dubious of certain people's enthusiasm on here for a lone fast Worcester-London, I am sceptical about the idea that people might use a particular train because it has a restaurant. If you're off home to Plymouth and arrive at Paddington at 16.55, are you really going to shun the 17.03 and wait an hour just because the 18.03 has a restaurant?

FGW's cuts are hardly on a par with what NXEC did, with a wholesale massacre - and presumably FGW did it in an attempt to try to preserve some sort of service where they could - but it's not as if their journeys are of Trans-Siberian length and in an age of eating on the run and stations with huge food courts, is it any wonder demand for at-seat dining has fallen?

Travelling chef is a poor substitute? On many services, eg the morning Hereford-Londons, it's a great improvement on a soggy microwaved bacon roll, which was the main 'breakfast' offering for a good few years.

And what's a 'proper' buffet? As far as I'm aware, the mini-buffets are able to offer the full Express Cafe menu, fresh-ground coffee and all, which I would have thought was the most important consideration. And it probably creates a better impression with passengers than a trolley in a vestibule outside a converted toilet.

Well I certainly use the 18-03 instead of other services because it still has a restaurant, and I believe that others do.
I even made a booking recently, though this seems to be discouraged.

I grant that to withdraw the remaining up restaurants would seem illogical, but I understand that that is the intention.
Does anyone know for certain ?

The remaining two up services are indeed listed on the pullman dining page of the FGW website, however on the main timetable page, no mention is made of restaurant provision, nor is it in the timetables at stations.
A cynic like me would suspect that this is to minimise patronage and justify withdrawal.

I'm also a fan of the Travelling Chef instead of Pullman. Still able to get a substantial freshly prepared hot meal at a much more reasonable price than the full silver-service Pullman. 37 weekday services provide Travelling Chef, with 8 of those (replacing previous Pullmans) offering an enhanced Travelling Chef Select.
I received a very detailed reply from James Burt (FGW Customer Service Director) when I enquired about the removal of the 8 Pullmans from the May-Dec 2009 timetable. These services were making heavy unsustainable losses, far beyond what FGW could justify. I'm was informed that even Travelling Chef and some Buffets are loss making, however FGW take the view that freshly prepared hot food provision is a service that should be provided on key long distance services. The decision was therefore taken to replace these 8 Pullmans with 'Travelling Chef Select'. The remaining two up Pullmans from Plymouth were also due to be axed but it made operational sense for FGW to keep them as the staff for the 1803 and 1903 down Pullmans are based in Plymouth. Unfortunately it appears that the decision to retain the up 1200 and 1255 Pullmans was taken after the timetables were produced, with them mistakenly showing as Travelling Chef services. However, as willc points out, they are listed as Pullman services on the 'Food and Drink' pages of firstgreatwestern.co.uk.
I'm still not happy about the removal of the fizzy pop though! That was a cut to far :D

how come there are no evening TC services?

I for one would love to order something right now rather than sitting here in the knowledge that its a nuked burger or wait until I get home at 2230 tonight!

They all seem to be morning services - never seen one of an afternoon

Firstly, I've travelled First a couple once with each of XC and VT.

With XC - it was cheaper than Second.

With VT it was because of their EXCELLENT and FREE food, drink (inc. Alc). Not to mention their brilliant Euston lounge: with a fridge where you can help yourself to cans of Virgin Coke, Lemonade and Tonic Water, a proper bar for free alcohol, cakes and crisps on the table etc etc.

Why should FGW First passengers pay for food when VT passengers on much shorter (in journey time, not mileage!) journeys get what they do.

If I were a regular FGW First traveller a la Fallen Angel, I would be miffed about the loss of the wine, coke (although I like tea too) and various snacks.

The recent VT cutbacks were due to shorter turnarounds at Euston - and even then they still offer a proper "First" service.

On the 2hr30 mins journey from Brighton - Bedford, if you get a brand new 377, you sit in 2+2 seating and get no food/drink AT ALL.

How many FGW routes are longer than that!!

Sorry D_M I do agree with you but there are plenty of West services in excess of 3 hours with no catering at all, i.e. the morning Bristol-Newquay and Bristol-Penzance, nearly 5 hours with not so much as a bag of crisps and bottle of water!
The TC service is far superior though, is open to all FC and SC customers and offers decent nosh thais pretty reasonably priced and better than a nuked burger!

Gt Malvern to Brighton - 5hrs 23 mins - and in a 158 !

Every now and then a 150 makes a guest appearance on this service. Nice.

Ouch !

It's a 150 EVERY DAY on the Penzance!

Should I ever do that journey - thank god I just ordered a new laptop with 7 hours battery life!

New Macbook Pro is it? ;)

Look - a bet NOONE goes from Great Malvern to Brighton on that train. It is only used by locals for part of the route. (Why, IMO, it should be split into a regular hourly service pattern instead of varying destinations and gaps in the service!)

I'm actually going to Brighton soon. I'm going LM to Birmingham, VT to Euston, LU to Victoria and SN to Brighton. All for just ^6 and decent trains - with a 150 for 40 mins not 5 hours!

Well that's fine and dandy for you, but for some people, the ability to do the journey in one go, without changing at New Street (or Bristol TM and many other big stations) and crossing London and spending ages tinkering with online booking systems is just what they want - there was a reason people were angry with XC stopping running from the South West to points north of Crewe.

Some friends of mine were trying to work out how to get granny, who fits into the New Street-phobic category I describe, from the North West to Cornwall for a summer holiday with the family the other week. In the end - and after ringing me up for advice - they settled on taking a detour off the M4 into Reading to meet her off an XC service there, whereas a couple of years ago she could have gone the whole way to Plymouth, or beyond, on one train.

yeah - 17 inch anti glare, 500GB hard drive, 3.06 processor

On non power adapted train journeys ill boot in low video mode to get maximum life but then switch to full when have power!  I dont expect the full seven since ive gone for capacity over innovation - and i dont trust solid state drives yet.  But i'd get close to the 5.5 hours journey time!

This was not an easy decision - but my current one has fried its mother board after being drop kicked in munich 18 months ago. (NEver assume a shiny street is just rain - it could be unbroken sheet ice). Screen was replaced at the time but there was irreversible internal damage to the gubbins - the fact its lived 18 months is a miracle.  The fact its dying and im still able to use it here in a hotel in windsor and have 2.5 hours battery life say a lot about macs.



Two days..................

I fail to see the problem with New Street. There are lifts and plenty of screens, with Phil announcements to guide you.

You can often change elsewhere. e.g. I could change at Smethwick Galton Bridge and Sandwell & Dudley to avoid New Street. I could avoid the LU by changing at Watford Junction and East Croydon.

i think the problem is - we need to cope for the aging granny who is not capable of changing trains because they get confused

If you extend that argument  - every station in the country needs to have a direct train to every other one

If they are that doddery - drive them or post them special delivery

Got it in one - but then clearly neither of you are never going to get old and doddery and btline doesn't mind getting drenched when it's raining at Sandwell & Dudley, though it's alright for anyone using the Cotswold Line not travelling to the great metropolis of Worcester to get soaked changing platforms at Oxford...

As for bloody Phil - give it a rest.

I'll bet you a quid for every time I got drenched at sandwell and dudley earlier this year.................

the point is the disabled are by defiition LESS abled - you can accomodate physical disability but when it comes to the point granny cant make the journey alone because new street confuses her thats life.  We cant cater for evrything all the time 

If that's your argument, then why should we try to accommodate physical disability? After all empty wheelchair spaces take up room where seats could be located, and delays can occur when trying to load or unload a wheelchair bound passenger. Staff costs could be reduced as you would need less people on hand to assist them, and in the case of blind passengers then FGW could save lots of money not having to print out special Braille copies of its safety information. There would also be no need to spend money on hearing induction loops on platforms and at ticket offices, and trains would be so much easier to design if wheelchairs were banned.

The trouble is, so people actually believe that would be a sensible way forward. Fortunately for them (and those who have stated on here that elderly people should be left to their own devices, or rely on somebody driving them everywhere), FGW and the wider world cares a little bit more for their well-being.

Take the Great Malvern example, where you have a town with well over the average age per head of the population, and running a wider variety of through trains might indeed make business sense sometimes. I bet a hefty amount of revenue has been lost from elderly passengers who used to travel from the south coast, Hampshire, Berkshire or Oxfordshire to the north west or Scotland. A choice of direct train, even if it was only once or twice a day, has now been taken from them.

Hi


Well mother could be included as a granny by age, but not by agility or health playing 4 rounds of 18 holes golf per week.

However has to be said that the direct XC Bournemouth via Basingstoke - Reading to Leeds and beyond was a useful tool for her to go an see the family "up North".   However, in order to get a direct connect on the return to Reading for her trip in July, would have had to be at Leeds for 6am! and a premium price of ^125. (Yes there were alternatives for less, but with changes in New Street/Reading etc)

Flybe (again) from Southampton>Leeds, ^3.19 each way and with taxes, insurance and carry on luggage ^86 all in

Afraid to say that was the preferred option

The reason I quoted that trip was that the last time I used it (Warminster - Worcester - New St: very cheap !) was that the girl sitting opposite was actually going to Brighton. She had done the trip before and was carrying large amounts of food and water !

Why do you always have to reply with such venom to a poster that has a different viewpoint than you? As well as jumping on small details when I am only giving an example off the top of my head. And twisting my comments to make me seem like I am a nasty person that does not care about this issue. Sorry, but it is really grating on me.

I completely understand the problems that elderly and disabled people have changing trains. My point was, if they can change at X station, then New Street should be okay as well. If they are so "old and doddery", then they should organise assistance or not travel by rail. It has become the latter for some relatives of mine, unfortunately. It saddens me, but it is the way it goes.

Why - on this occasion maybe because I'd had a crappy day, not your fault admittedly, but we all know you love Phil, there's no need to constantly remind us at every opportunity and just because he's making the announcement doesn't make one of the hole in the ground's last-minute platform changes any more palatable, whether or not you are hale and hearty and ready for a dash up and down the stairs.

The rest of the time because of the endless rehashing of the 'Worcester good, Cotswold stops bad', 'fast trains for Worcester, stopper for everybody else', '20 years ago nothing stopped at Hanborough and it was so much better' themes, no matter what evidence to the contrary, pointing out that the world and the rail network have moved on, is presented.

Not everyone is happy about changing trains, or crossing London. Saying 'use assisted travel' is all very well, but my experience tends to suggest that many elderly people are determined to retain their independence and 'don't want to be any trouble' and view such services as only for those in wheelchairs. My aunt, who is in her 80s, used Oxenholme-Reading through trains several times a year - there weren't many each day, but she would plan her travel around them. Now she goes to Euston and my cousin goes there to meet her and travel with her to Reading.

The industry knows there is a problem with New Street, which is why they want to rebuild it, and why when the through NW-SW XCs stopped running, they started trying to get people to change at Wolverhampton, Cheltenham, etc and hang around for half an hour between trains. They still are, see http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/Find_a_train/Making_your_train_connections_easier.aspx (http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/Find_a_train/Making_your_train_connections_easier.aspx)

And whenever I have to go north, I will try to get a through train from Leamington, precisely to avoid being messed around by those last-minute platform changes at New Street, because i don't like it either, even if I know it like the back of my hand.

Admittedly, the last minute platform changes at New Street are bad, but other than that it is no worse than a place like Bristol Temple Meads to change IMO.

After several incidents (of which I will not go into detail of here - let's just say that station or train staff would have been no help in preventing it) several relatives of mine can no longer travel by rail. Before they coped fine with New Street changes. (into 70s)

As for "http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/Find_a_train/Making_your_train_connections_easier.aspx" that is the biggest load of TOSH I've seen in my life. I've read the leaflet and it's WRONG. If you are travelling from the South West - e.g. Bristol to Manchester, there are NO more trains from Cheltenham to Manchester than Bristol to Manchester. For the extra services coming up from Reading, you must change at Birmingham New Street! In a few cases (such as coming from the extremities of the XC network, or travelling on the Turbo routes to/from Cardiff and Nottingham, it may work. But to publish such a piece of literature is a disgrace!

As for Phil - calm down about it. I assumed most posters took my Phil posts to be light hearted. Nothing more. :)


i.e. a difference of opinion. ::) ;) Many other posters (and no doubt people in Worcester and Hereford) agree and say such things. We think it is absurd for HSTs to be carrying around air when they could run a few faster services to get more bums on seats AS WELL AS the stoppers and halts train.

Apart from the fact that New Street is dark, cramped and can be a wind tunnel on bad days, whereas Temple Meads is light and has a wide area under the platforms to reach your train.


The extremities of the Crosscountry network being everything beyond the Midlands then?. If you want to go from Exeter to Manchester or Leeds to Reading it makes sense to use a station other than BNS. You might have to wait longer but it's a lot more convenient changing at Cheltenham than BNS as you don't even have to move platform. Given the DfT's brilliant thought process that means for instance everyone south of Reading must want to go to Manchester it can only be a good idea to give people alternatives to New Street.

Bristol, Newcastle, Reading and Manchester - the places where the core service reaches - are not in the Midlands. ;)

Look - the current XC method of having core hourly routes is the best. You can't have trains from everywhere to everywhere. Otherwise you prevent clockface timetables, have rolling stock & staff lying around at extremities and have a less reliable service. At least the people of Bournemouth know there is a train at XX15 (or whatever) to X, Y, Z etc. and that they can change at Reading, New Street and Crewe for places further afield.

Biggest load of tosh? I thought you were a Daily Mail reader?  ;) Anyway, if you board at Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Southampton, Winchester or Basingstoke, and you're going to Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham or Newcastle, the advice that you may wish to change at Leamington Spa is sensible. Oxford or Banbury would do just as well. Any of them is far better than Reading or Birmingham New Street! Yes, you may save 15 or 20 minutes on your journey by changing at New Street, but anyone with luggage, kids, or other mobility to hinder them would probably be welcome of the chance to grab a coffee for 30 minutes and be assured they won't need to change platforms.

Now what's the phrase, long on opinions, short on facts... and rather confused here too by the look of it.

The HSTs are carrying around air off-peak, NOT in the peak, which is when you all want a fast train - even if you all want it at different times.

And I'll ask again, since you have never actually come up with a straight answer, how are you going to foot the bills for running extra fast trains, where's the extra stock coming from, where are the extra crews coming from? The current level of service feels about right to meet demand, so don't go expecting lots more Worcester trains post-redoubling. Yes, it adds capacity, but more importantly, it adds reliability and flexibility to cope with problems.

If you remove the bums on seats from intermediate stations and the money that they bring in, that means you have to generate far, far more from Worcester and Hereford to support your special train - places which are very small by comparison with most towns and cities at the outer ends of intercity routes and, I repeat, only enjoy the level of London services that they do because of the money that comes in from those intermediate stations, not least Charlbury, which in the past you have said should be missed by the Cathedrals Express - never mind that it's the busiest station between Oxford and Worcester - along with Kingham.

You also said this service should miss Ledbury and Colwall, which have precious few London trains to start with. Even in steam days, the Hereford portion always called at both.

When the idea of a (Didcot-) Oxford-Moreton Turbo shuttle was suggested, you seized upon it as a reason why you could ditch intermediate stops by Worcester services, when the whole point, if it happens, would be to beef up the service frequency on the eastern end of the line, to get people out of their cars and put more bums on seats, not maintain the status quo frequency-wise.

It wasn't by accident that someone at BR once suggested shutting the Moreton-Evesham section and running two branches - they knew where the bulk of the traffic and money was coming from. Even in the dark days of the 1970s, they experimented with extra Oxford-Moreton services, probably a few years too soon. Without the earning power from the stations in these parts you would not have the 15 London-Worcester trains a day (plus the halts) that you do.

If one of those 15 starts missing out stops along the way it has bigger repercussions than taking out one train from 50, which is what your precious Virgin flier is in the context of the Birmingham-London service.

Never have! That would be folly. Please delete! :o

We have only suggested cutting Pershore, Honeybourne and Hanborough stops one peak service arriving between 7.30 and 8.30. This would free up space on the other service which arrives at this time, which calls at the above. Ditto for around 6 pm.

The following is taken from a post you made in the 'Petition for double track on Cotswold Line' thread on December 6, 2007:


Did I miss something? Because there appear to be two things missing between Hereford and Malvern, as well as those little-used rural backwaters Charlbury and Kingham.

Your suggestion would leave the stations you mention with yawning gaps in services at the busiest times of the day - which would probably cost you as many passengers as you gained at Worcester, because the first time anyone from Pershore or Honeybourne tried to use Evesham, they would find it the parking nightmare that it was every morning before the extra Vale stops went in - and I remember what it was like very well, because I used to get my car serviced in Evesham, so would drop it off and walk to the station amid the circling motorists trying to find a parking space - but I suppose they could always drive to Warwick instead...

And the Cathedrals arrives in London at 9.45am.

Oops! How do you plea, Btline?  ;)

Digging up a post from 20 months ago is rather a low blow really.

(a) Malvern Stas includes Cowall anyway, and I probably missed out Ledbury to save time on the typing.

(b) As you yourself know, my opinions/knowledge have changed since 2 years ago. (many of which, you have had a part in changing) So a similar post today would not miss out Charlbury and Kingham.

(c) Pershore, Hanborough and Honeyboune would still have their peak train. No-one would force them to drive to Evesham, and fight through that mysterious traffic jam that disappeared when the stops were added. I think the needs of Herford - Worcester are greater.

(d) Don't try and pretend that people don't drive to Warwick Parkway. They do. Chiltern are cashing in. And people wouldn't if it wasn't worth their while!

Saving time, I should have known... but if Colwall's in Malvern, then I must live in Kingham (can't afford to, sadly).

Maybe the people who use Pershore, Honeybourne and Hanborough would like to keep their peak trains. The extra Vale stops were added in large part due to the problems at Evesham, because people drove in from all over the area to catch the expresses there, as there were just two southbound peak stops at Pershore and Honeybourne previously - the first Malvern departure and then the halts service - so their only through London train was at pretty ungodly hours (about 6am at Pershore, I think). Due to current single-line timing constraints, the halts now skips Honeybourne, so it only has a net gain of one train.

If FGW had found little demand, I am sure they would have dropped the HST stops long ago, but three years on, or whatever it is, they are still there.

The timetable is not set in stone. The experiment with stopping the first London train at Shipton was abandoned due to lack of demand - perhaps not surprising at just after 6am. There have been various changes to calls at Hanborough and Honeybourne at other times of the day and the London-bound Cathedrals Express has never stopped at Hanborough - even though, with an 8.45am arrival into Oxford, I have little doubt it would attract a lot of custom if it did - but there isn't any room to accommodate anyone past Charlbury and it helps achieve a 3hr 4min timing from Hereford to London. Take out those Vale stops and yes, you'd be pretty near that 2hr 50 timing, but people in the Vale would have a far worse service.

Post-redoubling, you may well see some adjustments in the morning peak, both to journey times, gaps between trains and calling patterns. As I have said elsewhere, being able to move the Cathedrals Express a bit earlier could allow you to slot in a short working from Moreton to Oxford to get people into work for 9am, which would then be able to serve Hanborough and the Wychwoods and ease a bit of the pressure on the express - but that would depend on being able to find stock and a crew and a path for the train.

What I meant about Warwick was that faced with the prospect of being forced to revert to the 'drive to Evesham' scenario again, many Vale residents would probably think that rather than enduring aggro there, they might just take their custom elsewhere.

Cowall is counted as a Malvern station. (not in ticketing obviously)

Malvern used to have 4: Link, Great, Wells* and Cowall

*Debatable whether is was one or two stations.

Are North Cotswold stopping patterns part of FGW's complimentary service in first class?
Way off topic folks.

This thread has been off topic for ages, ranging from Old Grannies, to Birmingham New Street; and from whether it is better to change at Bristol or Cheltenham for XC services, to Malvern and its stations! :o :o :o :o

^{Comma added ::)}

I always click on 'unread posts since last visit' and tend to go to the last page and see what is being said. Your right that the thread has been off topic for a long while....I see macbooks and Phil Sayer have also put in an appearance.
And at the risk of keeping it off topic "XC services to Malvern and it's stations"???? Shurely shome mistake....

A thread's gone off in a whole new direction, well I never... it's not the first - it won't be the last.

And whoops, btline missed out the comma, but it's clear enough what he meant.

But if it upsets you that much... I'll say no more.

Yeah ... but let's not start splitting, redirecting and restructing wholesale.    We could have a "degrees of separation" game, where we see how many posts it takes to get from Cola that's included in the price of a first class ticket to the number of type of point machine in use on the section from London to Reading ... (37, I recall someone saying!)

I've added a comma above. ::)

To be honest, when a thread changes direction like this, it is usually because there is nothing more to be said about the topic.

Does anyone have anything else to add about removal of Coca Cola?

Personally, I preferred the Diet Coke option, however it was a shame that it was always warm!

At least the new offering features chilled fruit juice, and some of the fruit cake and flapjack offerings are most delectable!

You got me! I'm Coked out.
Loving the new recipe Wasabi Peas though. Well hot!! If you've got blocked sinuses they are miles better than Tunes to help you breath more easily. I was able to elucidate "A weekend first upgrade to Paddington, please" in a crystal clear voice despite my current sinusitis!!

I have to say - the orange biscuits XC give out are vry nice. Perhaps FGW could get those...

Very nice to dunk in a mug o' tea... ;D

Oh for a proper mug o' tea, with 4* fresh milk and three full teaspoons of white sugar. I'd carry a flask with me on my travels but that is just one more item on the road to full blown Spotter-dom.
FGW have the orange marmalade biccies as well, or at least they used to. Don't like the bananana ones.

I just want a relatively calorie free alternative to water and tea/coffee

i've started to irritate the morning CH by asking for lemon from the buffet to pour the water over!

They arent used to it on the morning service!

Hmm, are there really that many calories in tea? Surely a cuppa won't do any harm? ??? :-\

Whatever happened to Vanilla Coke?  ???

I DONT LIKE TEA AND COFFEE


Loathe them

Never drink them

I can just about take coffe but very sweetened

Adults are assumed to like these - I am obviously a child in adult shoes - I like fizzy pop (calorie free) and flavoured water ........... and wine, beer, gin etc

Ask for a Gin n Slimline on your morning train then. That'll really get the CH's irritated. And probably get them gossiping as well ;D

Eh !!   ???  ???

See above - I dont lie tea and coffee

I pay a fortue for an FC ticket

but if I want low cal I have water or tea and coffee

I used to have diet soda

Eh!  ???  ??? You don't like tea and coffee, but if you want a low cal option you'll have water or tea and coffee?

No - badly phrased due to the late hour

If I want a low cal option that I dont have to pay for then my only options are water or Tea and Coffee - neither of which I like.

Hence the only thing I will drink that is low cal is water - since they took the fizzy pop away.

Do you realise that in one of those plastic cups of OJ there is about 100 calories?  Now how many do you think you'll get through in a 2.5 hour journey?

best bet is make your own fizzy orange......get ice .orange, fizzy water and spare glass off trolley...and then mix half of orange with half bottle of water and ice....you end up with 2 glasses of not bad fizzy orange

Here's a question, do First Class customers get the posh coffee served from the machine at the buffet, or is it powdered stuff?

Tis instant. Either from a big flask when at seat, or made up if ordered at the Buffet

I know this is a stupid question, but I haven't been using FGW for about 9 months as I've been working abroad, but what exactly are you offered complimentary these days in First Class by way of drinks and snacks?

I'm travelling from Bristol to London a few times and back next week, and wondered what I could expect? Are they still providing it at seat or is it now go up to the buffet and collect?

It will be at seat. You get coffee, tea, hot chocolate, fruit juice water, muffins, biscuits, fruit cake, flapjack, crisps and fruit. Possibly more!

Muffins are no more.  Good for me the chocolate ones paid havoc with my waistline ;D

There are some pastries which no one seems to like.  Watch out for the Wasabi peas.  Bet you cant eat more than three at one time - blows you head off  :P

...during the week.  At weekends you should collect from the buffet

Just as we were adapting to the down graded complimentaries.........Gone are the only decent munchies left - the sea salt and black pepper crisps.

Away went the wasabi peas

Now away have gone the crisps to be replaced by ........... plain. 

What is the point of PLAIN crisps - surely you want them to taste of SOMETHING.

Oh - and we have the revolting rice crackers as well.  Ugh

They are definitely trying to force FC passengers to pay for drinks and munchies.  Although given the number of no buffet at all sets running around THAT is increasingly difficult. (1708 NWP to PAD is a lack of any sort of buffet)

They do. Potatoes fried in fat - low in nutrition and high in fat (I love 'em!). I'd have thought with your dietary dismissal of the free orange juice instead of Diet Coke that some nice healthy rice crackers would be right up your street. Even if they do taste of cardboard!  ;)

Apparently only 6 sets are sans buffets, though I agree it feels a higher proportion than that. Should all be done by April. Maybe it was too much to ask that they didn't return the ones not being refurbished to the leasing company before finishing the refurbishment. 

Re the crisps, the peppery ones were a bit of an acquired taste, which I eventually acquired. So I'm not that disappointed going back to plain, though I'll need at least three packets given the size of them.

I did like the sea salt and black pepper crisps, however the bits of pepper did have a habit of finding every nook and cranny in my teeth and gums, giving me peppery breath through the day!

I seem to get em 'all - or they are all on the WOS / NWP off peak routes

However the depressing feature seems to be the HFD services seem to be moving to mini buffets...... Gone are the days of hobnobbing with the staff in F after Evesham

mmmm - in a two hour journey I get through about 1 litre of diet coke (I dont do tea/coffee) = 30 calories

The same amount of fluid in orange juice is about 450 calories at best

1 small pack of crisps to kill the taste buds and get the chewing sensation = 60 calories

GGGGRRRRRRRR

What I have noticed between FGW and XC is that if you travel north of Bristol or Reading with XC you get REAL Milk with your hot drink... Whereas FGW or any south bound XC service it's all that p*xy UHT stuff! (And yes I'm sad and can taste the difference ::) )

I will comment though, that when FGW have them in the buffet, the retail Cinnamon Twists are most acceptable ;D

However bringing back the Lemonade would be even more acceptable as you can only buy those tiny mixer cans which if your ravagingly thirsty have absolutely no effect whatsoever >:(

Do they still do the hot chocolate in 1st... They were an awesome accomplimant to the 22:35 BRI > PAD ;D

Yes, but its hot water and a packet.

Can anyone tell me what the staffing arrangements are for on-board catering? Are Customer Hosts and Buffet/Trolley staff employed by FGW or Rail Gourmet?

All High Speed catering is in house afaik.

Trolleys on 'West' Services are Rail Gourmet, HSS trolley/buffet are all FGW staff.

Rail gourmet still wear an FGW uniform though :) at least they do on the Portsmouth - Cardiff diagrams :)

The occasional one you see on HST to oxford are rail gourmet.  Not that there are many HST to oxford these days (off peak)

Super TM is quite right. The Oxford-based trolleys, which cover the Cotswold Line Turbos and assorted HST and Turbo workings between Oxford and London, are Rail Gourmet staff.

Managed to get my hands on a packet of the rice crackers today, and I promise I'm not just saying this FA, but I thought they were very nice! Something a bit different and lots of subtle flavours. I should point out that they also contain nuts and a few other bits and bobs to add to the taste, though that also ramps up the fat/saturated fat/calorie content to around the level of a normal packet of 'healthier' crisps.

Anyone else tried them?

I used to buy them wholesale from Costco..............

The only good ones are the coated nuts - the others are the bleugh ones.

I live with someone who loves these things - they are forever in the house - I NEVER touch them - hence my dispair.

I spent 75p today on a packet of mature chedder crisps (lunch was abandoned when I slept through my alarm) and frankly - they were tasteless......

Brong back Golden Wonder or Walkers EVEN if I have to pay for them!

Golden Wonder Cheese and Onion were the best. Walker's don't come close.  ;D

Why did Walkers oversell Golden Wonder? GW were so much better.