Great Western Coffee Shop

Have noticed over the past couple of weeks that FGW appears to be struggling to provide enough units for it's current summer diagrams with the reappearance of the dreaded daily list of short formed trains on the Cardiff-Portsmouth and the Bristol-Weymouth lines ever increasing.

I cannot begin to imagine if we did have hot weather how many more units would be down. On the plus side with the weather being so poor I would imagine running short formed trains on the Weymouths hasn't caused too much inconvenience up to now.

noticed the same myself,lots of ports-card journeys formed 2 cars.
pretty poor service really i wonder if FGW regret getting rid of the 4 153's,9 150's and 12 158's over the past few years?

Anyone got the miles per causualty figure for the West fleet classes??? Would imagine its fairly high, refresh did nothing for the mechanical side of things....

I think you mean fairly low then, if you're implying that their reliability is poor. 

I thought it was commented that certainly Exeter TMD had done a fantastic job with regards to the 142s for miles per casualty.

I think its more 150s/158s that operate cross Bristol services that are causing a few Cardiff-Portsmouth and Bristol Weymouth services to be short formed at the moment.

Mark Hopwood has been boasting that our 158's have achieved the best reliability of all TOC's, even SWT!

Probably was the case a few weeks back when he said that, now I'm not so sure that is the case if the daily list appearing on FGW's website is anything to go by.

Theres always the concern that with extra units required for summer duties on the Cornish branches that with such a tight fleet allocation that it only takes one or two units to be out of action on top of units being serviced for short forming to happen.

They didn't have a lot of choice in the matter - they were told to give them up by DafT.


They have done, but that's in the context of a type of train that has probably the worst mpc figure of any in use in Britain, so they were starting from a pretty low base.

Indeed, I believe First wanted to keep them but the dft forced them to have the pacers?

Not quite so clear cut.   It was known at the franchise bid time that bidders would be favoured if they put in higher bids, and also franchises to run on a minimum of stock.    In hindsight (and hindsight is marvellous), it seems very likely that First would have won with a bid of 200 million pounds less, and with rather more units on their fleet

Looking at today's live updates page on the FGW website, there are at least three diagrams of two car 158s operating in place of three car 158s. Someone in the know please correct me if I'm wrong.

Several Hybid 158s are currently missing centre cars, due to an unusual amount of engine related problems last wseek, including 2 total seizures!

It is getting better slowly - 158955 reformed to 3 car today, and hopefully another one will regain its third carriage tomorrow

Thats good news. Well done to the SPM crew for getting them back in service again.

Wo do try our best!  ;) ;D

i know the daft do stick thier nose in but first must of said during bidding process they can run the minimum service level with a smaller fleet? hence saving money and allowing ATW,Northern and scotrail more sets in thier fleets?

why all of a sudden are the engines having problems? in your opinion is it poor workmanship from recon company or are they getting less preventative maintenance these days?

This seems to fairly common problem with units. They seem to follow the classic bell curve whereby the reliability starts low and gradually builds and then starts to tail off. With units changing  engines you can go through several bell curve cycles per unit related to the engine.

It looks like the fleet is reaching a milage when as you say either defects from the recon or poor maintenance is having a significant impact.

Combination of the two IMO.

No depot (or exam/maintenance regime for that matter!) is perfect , but SPM are pretty much 'on it' in terms of maintaining the west fleet, especially in areas of fault finding/repair and also 'Level 5' work such as engine/transmission/wheel set changes. All of the new staff who were recruited to do overnight B exams are settling in nicely and although there are still lots of irritating corporate/political hurdles to get over, the exams are being done and the fleet is being kept together. Issues and trends are being identified and action is constantly being taken to tackle repeat failures with fleet campaigns. We also did our first full 'in house' Bogie change the other week, which was a great success. There as been talk and planning towards bringing all West fleet C4/C6 overhaul work on the DMUs in house, but with the electrification announcement, plans and priorities may well have changed.

I look at it this way, when the Shed is empty in the morning with 1 or 2 units knocking around for As/FPXs or C4 work and we struggle to find jobs for the shift to do, we are doing our job properly. If the shed is packed to the rafters with units and people are running around like headless chickens trying to clear the backlog of jobs, something is very wrong! EX is also staying on top of its Donkey fleet (142/143) and since the allocation re-shuffle of units, ie. 143s swapped for the 150s and their MPC is staying High.

However, despite our relatively good availability of late, some still mange to slip through the net occasionally, often due to either an oversight or by the mounting pressure of maintaining fleet availability, causing referrals of non-safety critical work. Last week i carried out an engine Half-Life (250k Miles) exam on a 153, which was....50,000 miles overdue!!!!!! The poor thing was rough to say the least, and whilst not safety critical, the engine is obviously a vital component that can be costly in terms of fuel/oil/coolant consumption, plus keeping time and the increased potential for failure. After half a days TLC she was running sweat as a nut again, with a full top end/tappet set-up, brand new Injectors, Water Pump, Compressor Head etc, good for another 200K miles before its change-out time.

We do seem to go through 'duffy' batches of re-manufactured units that have suffer from the same problems. For example, the Cummins NT855 R1 (158) or R5 (153/150) engines are re-manufactured by LH Group, who are usually pretty spot on with workmanship but often seem to be let down by using what would appear to be inferior/badly manufactured aftermarket components. We have done employee exchange programmes with LH Group in the past, to show each companies employees what happens on the opposite end of the component life cycle and the work involved. Also, at the end of last year, a big Apprentice exchange program was being set up between FGW and LH although this has unfortunately been knocked on the head for the time being by LH due to the current financial pressures.

Over the past 6 months we have had a massive amount of top-end related running problems due to pitted camshafts. On examination, it would appear from a simple visual inspection of the failed camshafts that the failed shafts are all very similar in appearance caused by what looks like incorrect/insufficient processing of the metal during production. Whether this is because of scrimping is yet to be seen, but i suspect that it is.

Dependant on the circumstances surrounding the failure (after joint investigations), these defective parts are replaced as part of the product warranty from LH, especially if there is a known/recurring problem and repairs will be made by their (or LH approved) technicians, however you still have the initial failure and then the resulting downtime of the vehicle, plus the additional manpower/overheads/consumables etc and of course on the Ops side, the dreaded Impact minutes!!!!!!! It all gets reclaimed in one way or another financially through claims and counter claims, but that doesn't stop the public seeing the effects by a 2-car 158/9 rolling in as the 3rd car is stranded on depot waiting for LH to attend.

I would like to emphasise though that while i have used LH Group in this example, the same situation occurs with all the other over-haulers/suppliers, such as Wabtec/Voith/Cummins etc.

It is alot more complicated and engorsed than most people would think..........!

Well franchise bidding is a bit of a lottery, so it probably didn't hurt to say that of course DafT's timetable and stock plan looked do-able - even if many had doubts. And it wasn't the case that all that stock had somewhere to go to. For example, the 153s released spent a good while parked up at Eastleigh awaiting a new home.

Many thanks Sprog for taking the time to let us know what the SPM crew have to deal with when it comes to maintaining and servicing the West Fleet. Its helpful to know what goes on behind the FGW service updates page when it reports services are running a bit shorter than usual and what happens behind the scenes to maintain a full fleet.

Thanks for the info Sprog, it's interesting reading about how you guys in SPM are getting on after the delays in setting things up.

Although there were a few groans last night at Filton when the 1709 turned up shortformed, this is the Pompey train, thankfully the 150 was waiting at BRI to connect to which hasn't always been the case recently. I dread to think what would have happened if it hadn't.

It didn't prevent a delay of 15 minutes while the driver tried to clear the vestibule, an 'altercation' occured according to the guard, at least the trolley got on.  ;D

The 0700 off Trow was extremely short formed this morning with 0 carriages.

I know that from December  2009 with South west trains  cutiing back their services to run only from London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids, First Great Western are hiring another Loco hauled train are are extending some of their Cardiff - Taunton services through to Paington to replace the withdrawn SWT service.

Thanks for that information, anthony215 - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  ;) :D ;D

Will this mean that with two hauled sets four locos will be needed?!?!?!

Yes, but 2 might not be red!

There is only 1 extra set. The second being the set currently in use.

well some people i have spoken to said that most likley another loco hauled train could be brought in if they can find some mark 2 stock carriages.

so from december there should be 2 loco hauled sets in service and possible a 3rd  which again dependingstock being available.

as for the new trains i know now that the order for 11 4 carriage class 172 turbostars for the cardiff - portsmouth route has been canceled thanks to the electrification product with first great western only receiving the class 150's from London midland next may ( iff bombardier dont have any delays building the class 172's


other than that the only other trains thta FGW are likely to receive will be the class 165/166 dmus from the london - oxford & thames valley services although  Arriva trains wales want to nick some for the cardiff valley lines network

That's a shame then that we won't be getting Class 172's on the Cardiff-Portsmouth's.   I've been thinking for a few years now it would be a refreshing change if we had some different DMU's on these services instead of the same old 150's or 158's which have been used for many years now!  I like the Turbostar trains(much preferable over the Sprinters), so it would be great if we had some down this way.  But it looks like that won't be happening.

The Class 165 and 166's being used on services again in this region is interesting news though.  When are these likely to make their way down here?

not for a while yet,when the electrification is done and new electric stock has been delivered.
it may not happen if we get a chenge of government next year it is always a possibility the plug could be pulled on the funding,only time will tell.
i have heard if we do get turbos 2016-17 is most likely but feel free to correct me if wrong

Will any modifications be required to allow the 165/6's to operate further west? Currently 165/6's are DOO - I would of thought there will be opposition to this. Also are these units slightly wider than normal - will they fit?

At present the 165/66s run on doo and non doo routes so i should think no mods need to be done ,will they fit probably not

Turbos could probably get all the way to Penzance, with the odd scrape here and there on some recently-built platforms and bridges, as the GWR retained a wider loading gauge on its system long after the broad gauge had gone.

You don't need to make any modifications to operate with a conductor, as the cabs have buzzers fitted for them to use on the Cotswold Line to signal to the driver to shut the doors and then set off.

As will said, it will probably be a change of operational practices rather than a physical modification to the units, unless they choose to fit them with Local door controls when they are refurb'ed/refreshed (as they did previously on the 150s). Depends how tehnically challanging it is.

Oh, and sorry for the DP, but:

Another 3-car has been reformed today. 158951 has regained its now repaired 3rd vehicle and should have left SPM this afternoon.

Leaves only one 'odd' 158 vehicle IIRC, which is awaiting materials.

143612 stopped for an engine change, 150246 stopped with an enonmous list of deferred Door faults (and various other minor bookings) that were on concession which has now expried. 142 awaiting materials. Part from Bxs, that is our only signicicant stoppers so far this week.

Just when we thought things couldnt get worse for FGW it seems like 4 class 142 pacers are being snet to the north of england in 2010 and the only replacement trains will be some class 150's from London Midland as those class 150's with London Overground are now going to East Midland Trains.

If this keeps up i doubt how FGW are going to cope until 2016. As for electrification in my opinion the cardiff valley lines network should be electrified after the great western because it is very well used and unlike the Midland Mainline which has had a recent influxe of brand new trains, most of the trains in use on  the valley lines  are now nearly 30 years old and need replacing urgently. The midland mainline should be electrified 3rd unless we could electrify both at the same time after that i think the crosscountry route from Bristol - Birmingham and some of the lines around Bristol should be electrified freeing up some class 150's to send down to the westcountry to allow the pacers to be sent for scrap.

RAIL magazine is reporting that all seven remaining 142s are heading back up north. Has this figure been downgraded to just four now EMT are getting London Overground 150s?

Also, does anyone know when FGW are going to refresh their two ex-Silverlink 150s 150121/127? I think they must now be the only units in the West fleet that haven't seen a new lick of paint and some new seat coverings.

It's a shame we won't be getting the Turbo's for another 7/8 years yet then!   I remember them when they worked the Thames Trains Bristol TM-Oxford services back in the late 90's till the very early 00's.  I was sorry when those services were axed, and the end of the very short era of Turbo's operating in the Bristol region.

Just remember we get it all down South folks as the North always gets negelected  :P

If I'm honest, South Wales and the South West seem to have lost out in the past few years. Yes Wales recieved 175s but apart from North Wales/Manchester to South Wales services we haven't really benefited whilst the South West recieves cascaded stock that is past its best before date to put it lightly. The only realistic short term solution it seems is to reintroduce loco hauled stock on XC to cascade Voyagers to nottingham Cardiff for example to allow Turbostars then to be cascaded. At the moment there are more losers than winners with the current rolling stock situation

all the 142's and ATW sets were due to go in december this year but i am led to believe 142's are staying until next june,not sure about the ATW stuff.
class150/1 will be refreshed once we get the other ones that are coming

thanks smithy

All ATW 150/2's to be returned by December 09. All 7 x 142 to remain until 06-2010. Not sure what if anything is happening as regards introduction of the alledged second locohauled set, however recent events make it easier to introduce using FGW drivers should some sort of ETS 57 be provided.

Incorrect. The track may well have been moved to ensure that clearances are not excessive between the existing platforms and the existing rolling stock, most of which has been in use since 1992 in it current form. Therefore 165 / 166 vehicles will probably not fit especially where the platform is on a curve due to these vehicles being built to their own peculiar dimensions. Ie class 150 overall width and approximately class 158 length. They will need to organise a gauging run to assess the likely issues. Class 165 was only cleared into Bristol Temple Meads on platforms 7/8, 9/10 for example, this being due to throwover of the wider vehicles on the curved track.

Current 'West' manning agreements do not allow for the driver to close power operated doors when the train is in passenger service. Therefore it will be neccessary for the turbos to be altered to conform with the other 14x and 15x currently in use on West services.

I think my reference to the odd scrape and platform and bridge clearances was pretty clear - of course they would need to do a gauging run - in the course of which there would probably be the odd bump or scrape...  We are talking about the GWR loading gauge here, not the Midland Railway, where you would probably remove substantial parts of a Turbo's coachwork at the first bridge.

And don't you think the operator and unions could sit down and have some talks about who does what, rather than spending lots of money on expensive modifications on trains not in the first flush of youth? They've got a few years in which to sort this out - and BR and the unions did manage to agree how to operate Turbos as DOO or with a guard all those years ago.

Well they have got a few years to sort it out I guess. Assuming of course that the next election doesn't return a Tory government who will no doubt can the entire WR electrification project, thus leaving the 16x tied to the former LTV operating area.

Quite what happens between June 2010 and the completion of the proposed GW electrification scheme as regards unit rolling stock provision for West services is a mystery to all of us. Any news on LMR getting any 172's? I suspect a tranche of the displaced 150/1 (or 150/0??  :o ) is likely to be the only DMMU stock available to replace 12 subleased units going back to their owning TOC's.

We might soon be seeing a few more "dellners" down west ;)

I expect that if the Tories get in, we may need to look at dusting off the 172 (or equivalent) proposals for FGW! The Conservatives will fail to see how the project actually makes sense - they'll stop reading once they've seen the price. (what's new?)

However, Adonis is doing his best to set up a group that can continue his ideas (like HS2 etc.) in a Tory government. And before you all say "a Tory gov may keep Adonis" - he won't want to join them, (already switching from the Liberals) as it would undermine his integrity.

Are you an insider inside the Conservative party of something? You seem quite certain, and inform us frequently, that this is the case?

I think most people KNOW that this is the case. Tory = cuts.

Want evidence? Look at London since Labour/Ken were ousted:

*Several tram projects axed, depriving some of the poorest Londoners;

*DLR extension shelved, ditto;

*Western Congestion Charge to be axed, this only helps an already affluent West London;

*Low Emission Zone progress stalled, although I don't think he has the nerve to get rid of it.

Expect similar UK-wide results from Dave!

Yes, we need controls over public spending at the moment, but I agree with Brown. Cutting too much during the downturn will hinder the recovery. And cutting transport projects is bad news for us all - we are going to grind to a halt in all of rail, air and road soon.

Bit of a squeeze tonight on the 17.30 out of Weymouth:

17:30 Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads due 20:05
This train has been revised.This train will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 5.This is due to an earlier train fault.

Wonder if additional buses were laid on. Been a nice sunny day today so may have been quite a few daytrippers down in Weymouth trying to get home.

Have they got 150247 & 153372 back out running again after the earlier 'problem' at 83C?
 :-X
 

Still being looked into at the moment.
 :-X

I have had the proposed diagram for the 2nd fgw loco hauled service emailed to me.

the diagram is supposed to be

06:22 Bristol TM - Cardiff
08:00 Cardiff - Paington
12:35 Paington - Cardiff
17:00 Cardiff- Taunton
19:15 Taunton - Bristol TM

so thats good as it means thet commutors from cardiff/newport to bristol will be able to travel on a loco hauled service
in the morning and back in the evening

And prior to 1997 Labour=re-nationalisation. Politicians aren't leopards - they can and do change their spots.

Incidentally WCML electrification started and ended under a Tory administration, ECML electrification was done under a Tory administration. So why shouldn't GWML electrification be done under Dave Cameron? That's making the big assumption that the Tories win next year. Kinnock was a shoe-in in 1992, remember?

Isn't two through services from Bristol to Paignton within around 40 minutes a bit of duplication (0811ish XC service.)

yes but doesnt the 08:15 crosscountry service run direct to taunton rather than stop at all stations and also run via weston-super-mare? that will mean that it will arrive in taunton at 08:45 with the fgw service not arriving into taunton til 10:00 so by then it will be over an hour behind the crosscountry service. so there shouldnt be too much duplication.

besides it does mean an increase in the number of seats for commutors between Cardiff & Bristol which should be good.