Great Western Coffee Shop

With proposed electrification of the Great Western main lines to Bristol/Swansea and Oxford followed by crosscountry route to Plymouth on the agenda this raises the prospect of crosscountry electric trains reaching Plymouth before FGWs direct  Berks and Hants is wired up(if ever!).So could  FGW Plymouth/Paddingtons switch to electric traction and run via Bristol in the interim or even permenantly given the improved performance of electric traction.

A few trains already do that route

Yes but journey times at present are extended by about 20 minutes compared to the direct Berks and Hants route as Plymouth/Paddington is 20 miles longer via Bristol.The improved performance of Electric traction as well as operating efficiencies could make re-routing of all Devon/Cornwall/Paddington services via Bristol feasable at least until the the Berks and Hants is wired up.

Closing the B&H and the re-routing of services via Bristol is what Beeching planned.

EDIT: I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE NO PLANS TO CLOSE THE ROUTE. I AM MEARLY GIVING SOME HISTORICAL INFORMATION TO AUGMENT THE DISCUSSION!

So what? They have no intention of doing this and reports on the Network Rail electrification strategy made clear that if Bristol-Plymouth is wired, it makes wiring the Berks & Hants route a more than viable propostion

I was only giving information! :(

Certainly not suggesting closing the Berks and Hants merely trying to second guess what the Dfts bean counters might be tempted to make of any electrification proposals as public sector spending cuts become reality in the future.

Beeching's great plan in his 2nd report was to close both the Berks and Hants and the Southern route via Salisbury, leaving just the route via Bristol to London. Seems perfectly fair. :-\ Mind you, the Serpell report of 1982 was even better, as Option A involved closing everything south of Bristol or west of Southampton. Option B was kind enough to leave the Bristol to Exeter route as well.

Fortunately BR played a good hand with the press and leaked the most extreme plans. The result being that it quickly got bad publicity so was shelved and there haven't been any major passenger lines closed since. Although Melksham passengers probably wouldn't notice much difference ;)

The country would have ground to a halt if Beeching's plans had come about!

Beeching was somewhat of a scapegoat as the main problem was Marples. Anyway, Why is it people only remember Beechings for the cuts and not the investment in the reamins of the railways he recomended. Beeching wanted the government to invest a lot of money in the remains of the railway, possibly even electrifying the whole network but the government at the time only paid attention to the "cost saving" aspects of the report leading to the closures. Not all Beechings ideas were bad either since he did after all encourage the use of the freightliner concept. DOn't always blame Beeching as there were many others who are to blame who have gotten away with ruining the railway

But Beeching II is a different matter.

Yes, we would have an electrified line from London to Plymouth via Bristol. But that would be it for the South West!

These awful plans caused Beeching to resign.

Network Rail are more into opening railways than closing them, they are very keen on keeping and even enhancing diversionary routes, the problems of the WCML are only to fresh in the mind.  But then who can second guess what will happen after the next general election it is after all the loonies on large expenses in Westminster who cockup the railways

There were many different versions of the Serpell report, at then end of the day he was a consultant doing what he'd been asked to do BY GOVERNMENT, which is why I can never understand these people that want a re-nationalised railway that would be run by GOVERNMENT!!! Under a nationalised railway we saw cuts, cuts and more cuts, Beeching, Serpell.......

Ah...but hang on. Isn't our current rail network run by GOVERNMENT? They specify the franchises in minute detail, the timetables, the rolling stock......

An interesting point that if the wires ever to get to Bristol would Bristol Exeter be wired before the B&H? If it were BR I would say yes firstly because Birmingham Bristol would follow before B&H and secondly with loco hauled trains BR would have no hesisitation in changing locos first at Bristol and then Exeter and hopefully Plymouth. Now I know DaFT has specified the hybrid IEP but nobody thinks it will work well, so we are left with the all electric and diesel versions so I can see electric IEPs to Bristol and diesel ones to the South West via the B&H. Scotland to the South West trians would be diesel IEPs even if Bristol Exeter was wired as the hybrid IEP would have problems with Dainton.

Therefore maximum route miles electrified and loco hauled trains to those branches not worth electrifying to give through services.

Don't forget if WW2 hadn't happened the GWR was planning electrification West I think Taunton but definitely Plymouth.

With their increased services both Falmouth and St ives lines justify electrification. After all the Sothern electrified many lines with just a basic 1/2 hourly service.

Remember that the excellently thought through IEP can't reach Cornwall.

And don't bank on the hybrid IEP being scrapped. The hybrid will allow them to not electrify to Aberdeen or the South West! All about cutting costs...

It's pretty clear from what I've read that the XC route to Plymouth would be wired first, presumably because of the enormous operating benefits it would have for the wider network, by linking up existing bits of electrification an helping make sense of an MML scheme, plus getting rid of lots of diesel running under wires north of Birmingham and Doncaster. Once the XC project has sorted out wires west of Taunton, then doing the Berks and Hants to connect that bit with a Reading area electrified under a Bristol/Oxford/Cardiff scheme becomes a far better financial proposition than it would be the other way round

As for the blooming hybrid IEP, Roger Ford of Modern Railways (a rail traction engineer by training) went away and did lots of sums after the initial PR offensive by Hitachi and concluded that it still wouldn't perform on diesel only as well as an HST, whatever they said. And how can anyone take seriously a train with just five coaches which is also lugging around one electric and one diesel power car?

The Network Rail electrification document explicitly mentions locomotive haulage west of Plymouth.

And Rail says in its latest issue that a Government announcement on wiring plans is likely in September.

Slight clarifications. It is only the 10 car 'bi-mode' train that Roger Ford reported underpowered when on diesel or electric.  The 5 car 'bi-mode' has exactly half the diesel power of the 10 car diesel, so pro rata has the same power available. Also, the electric end of the train isn't a power car as such, it is a full length passenger vehicle, all the electric stuff is underfloor.

Hybrid is the term used to describe the diesel power cars that have regeneration into a battery bank (like the Hayabusa NMT trial power car). Bi-mode is the diesel and/or electric version.
Paul

But on the assumption that if it ever sees the light of day the 10-car would likely be the sort covering Aberdeen/Inverness (unless the Scottish government finds the money for electrification) and Cotswold peak services - to take a couple of likely scenarios - god help the timekeeping, given the taxing nature of the lines north of Edinburgh and the climbs up Campden Bank and through the Malvern Hills, which are precisely the points where you need all the oomph two class 43s can provide. The time penalty for an HST on one power car up Campden bank is hefty and Hereford trains usually seem to be allowed no further west than worcester if they are running on one power car, so I'm not convinced that that this thing will be of any use whatever.

Indeed, bearing in mind the Scots' stated preference for electrification of their main lines and Network Rail's stated preference for loco-haulage west of Plymouth (any time penalty during a changeover to a diesel would be eliminated by time saved by electric power on the hills in Somerset and Devon), who on earth would want the bi-mode, except from a civil service that has been messing around with successive rail electrification plans for more than 70 years? If it's such a good idea why are pretty much the only operating examples of such trains a handful of regional multiple units in France?

And does a five-car train with only four passenger vehicles make any sense at all? Even with horrible high-density seats in a 26m coach (less a hefty chunk for first class that would be essential on any Cotswolds/Oxford batch) it still would be struggling to match the seating capacity of an Adelante, so it would be too small for all but the quietest Cotswold services.

No, I think it is farcical too. All I was trying to point out was that it isn't quite as daft as a 5 car train with only 3 passenger coaches as your previous post implied... It would probably be more use for passengers if they could just add a pantograph to a 5 car DEMU [like a 22x with its underfloor generators]...

Paul

It worth baring in mind that even if the Government give the green light for whole sale network electrification this September the wires getting as far as Plymouth are at least 20 years away, if the GWML were the first to be done before the MML the GWML would follow on from Crossrail there is a debate of whether Oxford or Bristol S Wales would be first, Oxford would make the TV commuter services more efficient and Bristol S Wales would fit in with the ICE program.  The Governments decision in September will not determine that sort of detail, Network Rail is the process of centralising and expanding its Electrification team partly for future GWML / MML, Southern infill electrification but also to complete the Power Supply Upgrade on the WCML and a planned Power Supply Enhancement on the ECML.  Things like National Grid feed points take 5 or more years to plan with National Grid.

Some of the current work going on is NR working with equipment suppliers and construction companies to develop a strategy for the most cost effective methods and equipment.

There is an acute shortage of railway electrification engineers both design / specifiers and installers.

Perhaps we should compulsorily retrain all the redundant bankers and make them do something useful for the economy.

I heard the electrification annoiuncement is to be this Thurday ( but might only be extension of Crossrail to Reading)

Indeed the announcement is tomorrow according to today's Guardian which had a bit of info about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/21/transport-transport

Oh no we need useful people not a load of bankers .......... we actually need people that can add up properly


I agree that the Government may well announce the extension of Crossrail, but only allude (to make allowance for next years general election) to further electrification to Oxford and Bristol 

Big piece on You and Yours this lunchtime regarding electrifcation of GWML speculating an impending announcement.

Roger Ford of Modern Railways went sensibly  OTT regading the benefits of an electrified railway. I'd buy one off him any day.