Great Western Coffee Shop

Edit by Graham E  This thread has been split off from
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4903.0
which concerns the station of Perranwell (Falmouth line) where there is local disquiet because it has been turned into a request stop for some trains, and because some other trains in the greatly increased new Falmouth branch service won't stop at all.

---

Don't worry, D/M, there are already complaints about the SE HSS!

1. The prices - +35 % - enough said given that Kent commuters pay through the nose already!

2. Most Kent commuters work in the City, by the time they've walked to the Tube from St Pancras and travelled to the City, the time difference will be negligible.

3. I expect most Kent commuters don't want to use the overcrowded Tube every day, nor will they want a change.

4. There are going to be CUTS in the SE Mainline service - forcing people onto the HSS and pay the sky high prices.

Speaking from experience it is quite a walk from the St Pancras domestic services part of the station to the KX/St Pancras tube station.

Re the walk from St P domestic to the tube...the link was proposed, and indeed the escalators at the domestic entrance are installed but the subsurface direct link to the proposed Northern ticket hall to the East of KX was postponed by the government. I assume work will restart soon!
The same short-sightedness prevailed at Ashford International which was built, unbelievably, third rail. Only to have the canopies ripped apart to install OLE with additional clearances...to say nothing of the re-raising of the then recently raised road bridge at the North end...unbelievable! ???

Work restarted ages ago, and will be completed late this year in time for the full Kent domestic service...

Paul

Thread divergence. About a week ago...

Paul

Are these attributable facts or opinion?

No 1, I can go with.
No 2, "Most Kent commuters work in The City". My reading of 'most' would be more than 50%. Really? More city types than service industry employees for example? Maybe on the commute from leafy Surrey.....
No 3, Have you seen or conducted a survey of Kent commuters? Do 'most' Kent commuters all work within walking distance of a National Rail station that suits their commute? 'expect' is the giveaway word here. I suspect most Kent commuters already have an onward TfL or National rail journey requiring a change.
No 4, Maybe....but I would suspect that the business plan will be for HSS to complement rather than replace services. Lets wait for the final Dec 09 timetable. Excluding the 150 HSS services in the draft timetable, there is a planned increase of approx. 70 weekday services across the Southeastern network.

I do agree that a +35% premium is way too much for such a service. more so in the current economic climate. If loadings are poor I think this will be looked at again.

And my response is purely opinion. With the odd attributable fact. http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/news/news_items/view/85

Just concentrating on the '35% premium' for a moment. NO existing fares can rise by 35%, because the 35% only applies to Ebbsfleet as an origin or destination, and this is a new station. This and only this new fare has a premium of 35% over the existing Gravesend fare, however other existing fares from North Kent that join HS1 at Ebbsfleet can only rise by a maximum of 30% of the existing Gravesend - London fare.
Existing fares from the south east via Ashford can only rise by a maximum of 20% of the existing Ashford - London fare

In both these cases the fares from further away from the HS1 connection will have a lower overall percentage increase, as the preiums are effectively 'lump sums'. Margate via North Kent and HS1 rises by about 10% for instance. In summary because the rise only applies to the HS1 leg - and that is a less significant chunk of longer journeys.

'35% all round' is plain and simple exaggeration, based on people repeating what the media have trotted out, including certain rail magazines, who seem to have either failed to establish or have vastly over simplified the facts as published over 2 years ago in search of the snappy headline of 35%.

[Maybe this thread does need splitting now Grahame...]

Paul

I agree!

Topic split ... Perranwell Discussion is now at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4903.0

But you're missing the point.

A lot of people will live in Kent because they can catch a train from their local station to London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink or Cannon Street. Ditto with "leafy Surrey" as you can use "The Drain" (aka Waterloo and City line) to get to The City.

Overall, there will be a net increase in trains. But the reason behind the anger is that services to the aforementioned termini are to be reduced on many lines forcing people to use the HSS, and the higher fares that are brought with it.

They aren't being forced to do anything.

Bad move this, the fares on commuter services that use HS lines in Europe aren't inflated. There might be a valid excuse to operate such a policy if a true Inter City HS service ever gets provided in this country, and only then if there's a full time 'Classic' service, following a roughly similar route, available as a backup.

Seems to me to be nothing short of short termism.

My bad, I took Btline's use of +35% as a given. Despite what I said about facts v opinion, I neglected to check this one more thouroughly.

And YOU are missing my point.

I was questioning the assertion you made in point 2 that most Kent commuters work in City. And working in the City surely now encompasses more than just the traditional 'square mile'. I agree that there will be a reduction of approx 30 weekday services on the SE Mainline, but I think the effect on commuters will be negligible. The SE Mainline is more an inter-urban type of route than a commuter route. There are, according to the draft timetable, going to be approx 100 more services on the SE Metro routes which will greatly benefit commuters. A few people at the extremities of the SE network may be inconvenienced by the loss of a particular train, but as a whole I think more people will benefit.

And I echo devon_metro. Nobody is forced to do anything.

But the HS1 fares don't exist now!

The NEW fares for HS1 are expected to be 35% dearer.

And as for "nobody is being forced" - take a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8036851.stm

Maidstone's fast services into the City - axed.

And for northern Kent, the journey time savings will be modest, as the Javelins travel over less of HS1.

Fair enough that Londoners will have more services - but lots of Kent towns are loosing theirs.

You proved nothing. Nobody is forcing them to get the train to work?

SE Metro service improvement will not only benefit Londoners. These services extend beyond the border of Greater London to places such as Sevenoaks, Strood, Dartford, Rochester and Gillingham.

I'm still not convinced that the introduction of HS1 will have a huge negative effect on the options available to commuters farther out from London.

I see your (very picky ;) ) point, but I doubt anyone from Sevenoaks will get a stopper into London, seeing as there are regular fasts!

I can only assume you didn't understand my earlier post then. The Ebbsfleet to St Pancras preview fare - available today - is exactly 35% higher than the existing Gravesend to London Terminals fare. The Ashford - St Pancras preview fare - also available today - is exactly 20% higher than the existing Ashford to London Terminals fare.

The new fares via HS1 are not 'expected to be 35% dearer'. They are limited exactly as I have described, the information is from the DfT franchise specification.

You are right about journey time savings to/from North Kent being modest. Which is exactly why the pricing formula ensures that the premium has a lesser effect the further you travel on existing lines.

If you don't believe it just keep on exaggerating (as usual)...   ::)

Paul

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8123798.stm

Arrived an impressive 3 minutes early at 0722am!

Thank goodness all went well. You can just imagine the headlines if there had of been any sort of delay! Now they can get on with running this 'preview' service - which realistically is a good chance to iron out any faults or problems with the schedules and passenger management before the full service starts.

As for the fares debate - the passengers will vote with their wallets. True, St. Pancras isn't as well sited as the traditional London terminals from South-East London, but the 'Square Mile' is the workplace of less than 10% of London workers (though I'm sure as a percentage of commuters from the South East it's higher), but developments like Canary Wharf, and on a smaller scale Paddington Central, are starting to dilute the dominance of the 'City' as the commuters place of work in London.

Expect the area around St. Pancras and Kings Cross to be rapidly developed over the next few years because of High Speed commuter and international travel as well as the Crossrail network - an example of this can be found here: http://www.argentkingscross.com/ (http://www.argentkingscross.com/)

On time on the return legs as well. Unlike SouthEastern's other services heading out from Charing Cross and Cannon Street which were suffering delays of up to an hour in the Tonbridge area. Perhaps SouthEastern were deliberately delaying them making their Javelin services look all the more appealing...  ;)

1J68 0648 AFK - SPX 4 minutes early!

Looks like quite an impressive service if i'm honest, and grahame has elsewhere revealed that is isn't a complete and utter money spinner (as btline would like us to think!)

The only fly in the ointment would appear to be this notice on National Rail -

Southeastern "Preview" High Speed Services on Tuesday 30 June and Wednesday 1 July 2009
Time Reported    28/06/2009 22:55
Last updated    30/06/2009 02:56
Route Affected   
Ashford International, Ebbsfleet International & London St Pancras
TOC Affected   Southeastern
Description   
Because of a technical problem, the Southeastern "Preview" services running on the High Speed line are currently showing as cancelled in the Journey Planner
These trains will be running as expected. For the latest real time information about these trains please use the Live Departure Boards

Looks like the commuters of Ashford are prepared to pay the extra. From Southeastern website

"Jul 2 2009
High speed services proving a success

Following the successful launch of the ^preview^ High Speed services on Monday 29 June, passenger numbers using the service have required Southeastern to double the length of the train on some services.

The service has proven so popular with passengers that Southeastern today were required to double the length of the 0748 from Ashford International to St Pancras and the 1737 from St Pancras International to Ashford International from six to 12 cars."

It seems like a different world .... just imagine ... "The service has proven so popular with passengers that First Great Western today were required to double the length of the 06:35 from Bedwyn to Paddington from five to 10 cars."

Not surprised it is busy - people are trying it out.

The test will be whether they stick! When they turn up to buy their annual season.

Re: fares. It was the press/Southeastern's website that stated that fares would be up to 35% dearer. Then again, it would not surprise me to see the press exaggerating...

A lot of people from Ashford will pay the premium just to avoid overcrowding on the morning fasts. I've caught several early morning trains that have been full and standing on leaving Ashford. The general consensus (having spoken to friends who commute and also to friends and family who work for SET) is that it is too expensive - but people are saving over an hour a day travelling and that this is worth the extra.  Will be interesting to see season ticket sales though.

Not if they work in the City or in the West End! Instead they'll have the pleasure of the Northern Line (the busiest Tube line) each day!

The Northern Line to the West End? St Pancras is on the Bank Branch of the Northern Line, which goes nowhere near the West End. Piccadilly, Victoria, Circle, Hammersmith and City (at the moment) all go to points west.

Ok! I was refering to the Bank branch to The City. (being fully knowedegable of the LU network thanks ;) )

I'll just remember to be more careful when I post lest I upset other people. :D

Not upset in the slightest Bt ;D I don't pretend to be fully knowledgeable of the LU Network, so I always check the map to see which lines go where.....

Here's more evidence of the "Southeastern Axe":

http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/westkent/Rail-services-City-kept/article-1186166-detail/article.html

The Javelin preview trains will be extended beyond Ashford from September 7, running from and to Ramsgate, Canterbury, Dover and Folkestone Central, plus an off-peak London-Ashford-London run in the middle of the day. See http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/news/news_items/view/110 (http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/news/news_items/view/110)

Most of these places will see a cut of 50% in their existing fast services to Victoria/London Bridge in December.

It's a shame the line to Ore is not electrified from Ashford, as the Javelins would be very useful if they could take some of the Brighton Mainline's strain by removing East Sussex/ East Coastway passengers off the Haywards Heath Route.

Bexhill to London is over 2 hours at the moment, going via HS1 and an upgraded line to Ashford could cut this in half.

You don't really expect them to keep running lots of empty trains do you?

It's pretty clear from the response to the initial Javelin trains from Ashford that people are going to use the full service from December in big numbers - and not everyone from Kent is going to work in the City - for them, not going to London Bridge and Cannon Street may be a blessing, as neither is great for Underground connections, something you can't say about Kings Cross St Pancras.

Of course people are flocking to the previews.

But when commuters come to renew their tickets at the end of the year, it will be a different story, recession or none.

However, I expect most people that use the Javelins will only do so thanks to the cuts - but of course, that's what SE are banking on...

Passengers are already paying extra to use the preview service and they might quite like it that the trains are faster - something which on a certain other line you keep assuring us would attract the people of Worcester in their droves.

I quite imagine that the First Class passengers will be very happy, as their season ticket will be going down if they choose to use the faster service!

You seem fairly convinced that there will be a mass exodus of the service come December which I find very hard to believe. People value their time, and with lots of development occurring near Kings CRoss and excellent links to the north of England it will become very useful for business. In fact, whilst some of the city workers might be a littler peeved off, there is a massive potential for a new market of commuter to the north of London aswell as cross London tranfers via St Pancras on business trips to the north of the country.

Besides, how difficult is a trip to Straford, Jubilee/DLR to Canary Wharf or NXEA to Liverpool Street, or even the Central line to Bank. Nobody says that everybody will be travelling to St Pancras, as the Northern Line is a nightmare.