Great Western Coffee Shop

Im just wondering which train services in Wales are meant to have catering/trolley facilities on services and which arent.

I know the majority of West/South Wales to North Wales/Manchester services do, as do the Cardiff to Portsmouth services (although i believe at weekends they often have no catering?). And of course the HST have a buffet car and XC services all have catering.  Any other services are supposed to in Wales?

not 100% sure but i know you cant rely on arriva trolleys - there may or may not be one and if there is then it may only be part of the journey.

The Manchester to Milford Haven/Carmarthen trains generally have a reasonably reliable trolley service, at least as far as Carmarthen and sometimes further as well.

Trolley turn up more or less at random on other West Wales services (SWA/CDF to Pembroke Dock and Fishguard): sometimes they are there on services that are not advertised to carry one, other times they're not there when they should be!  It seems to depend on who's available at the Carmarthen catering depot.

bouncy!

One lesson I learn't the hard way was Tea and Class 143's do not mix...! ;D

Thanks for that. I never realised the heart of wales line had a trolley. I have never been on that service but would like to as ive heard its nice. I think none of the other valley/rural lines have catering facilities?

Do Maesteg - Cheltenham Spa have a catering facility as this service covers quite a distance, a wide range of stations and are generally run by 158s or 150s.

Wow, I didn't realize that 143s were getting deployed on the Central Wales Line these days, thought it was all 1-car 153s. Wouldn't fancy a 4-hour-plus bounce. Must be a decidedly tricky job for the person manning the trolley.

Is the local initiative where the station agent running the booking office at Llandrindod Wells also provided a trolley service on some trains still going?

I've never seen a 143 - it's usually a 153, with the odd 150. Would the crews at the northern end even have the traction knowledge?

Going by the last few weeks, it would appear that one of the Saturday Pembroke Dock diagrams is now a Pacer. That might find itself carrying a trolley. Must be fun - a 2-car 15X can be full on Summer Saturdays - a Pacer might be a bit cramped! Good view though.

I hadnt realised they used 143's on the heart of Wales line either - thought they were all 153's!  There cant be many diagrams on that service anyway as I think there is only 4 services a day in each direction (with one service extending to Cardiff Central per day)

Are the Pembroke Dock services usually 158's or 150's?

But yes I did wonder if the Cardiff-Cheltenham section of the Maesteg-Cheltenham service had catering facilities.

I read an interesting piece the other day - http://www.teletext.co.uk/regionalnews/wales/e707cfdaf71b78facc2b1455879197df/MP+trains+are+overcrowded.aspx

According to the above article, passengers on the Heart of Wales line are apparently in mortal danger from overcrowding, and a new TOC entitled "Arriva Trains West" appears to have been created...

The Heart of Wales line uses three diagrams (Mon-Sat). At any one time there are two 153 diagrams on the line, but in the morning workings to/from Cardiff effectively swap a 153. I've seen 2-car (150 or 153+153) on summer Saturdays in the past, but I don't know about this year. I think longer formations are often seen on Sundays, to swap units between Shrewsbury and Cardiff.

Pembroke Dock requires three diagrams - usually a mix of 150 and 153. The diagram that includes the 1751 SWA-PMD tends to be a 153; I believe this forms the overnight Fishguard, before giong on the Heart of Wales line the next day. The others could be a 150 or 153. From recent observation, it looks like one weekday diagram has been 153+153 since May. A recent change has put 175s to/from Manchester on the first and last trains.

On Summer Saturdays Tenby is busy, so there are no single car diagrams. Going by the last few weeks, it looks like the diagrams are 150, 153+153 and 14X (along with FGW's two HST turns). Before the major timetable change in Dec 05, there was a 3 car summer Sat diagram, but that doesn't seem to happen much these days. From what I've heard, the 0951 SWA-PMD is overcrowded on a hot day, and could do with strengthening. I couldn't comment on that one (I tend to go out on one of the HSTs), but it's the right time for daytrippers so I can imagine it being busy; coming back early evening, the 2-car sets can be full but not too many standing - but with a hot summer coming up I can imagine them being worse in the holidays this year!

There's no catering advertised on the Cheltenham stoppers, but I don't have first-hand experience of that route.

Last time I travelled on the HoW, it was a rammed 153. It was the first May BH weekend - so combination of sunny Saturday, bank holiday and last weekend of free travel for bus pass holders (it's reduced to a discount in summer because there isn't space for them). If it crashed - which obviously happens all the time - some say it would be safer if there's a lot of bodily padding to protect passengers ;-)

I'd certainly suggest that with the predicted high demand this summer, there'll need to be a lot of strengthening on Saturdays. In the past it was possible to release 150s from the Valleys (needed for commuters in the week) to strengthen Heart of Wales and Pembroke Dock workings, but I guess with the growth in local weekend demand around Cardiff over the last few years, more 4-car diagrams are needed there on Saturdays.

trolly on the blackpool to pic on a 101 with a trolly used to be fun

Many thanks for you two postings on ATW services on the Heart of Wales and West Wales lines Hafren. Two lines I remember travelling on in my childhood back in BR days.

I regularly use the HoW as I live in the area and it is usually a 153 that runs the service, however a 150 is common, especially on Sundays with special events such as Jazz on the train. Even though the service is busy at times, it is not always that way as it is not conveniantly timed for people to use it for travelling to work so is mainly a leisure line. Local groups are actively seeking more trains a day than increasing the size of trains as they feel services between Llandovery and Swansea for example will benefit people more than longer trains. This is currently being planned from what I have heard with network rail reinstating the loops along the line. Tbh though, usually when I use the service, a 153 will suffice as many people in the area are unaware the train actually runs whilst it is also cheaper to travel on than using bus services or parking in Swansea alone. The HoW has a classic case of not promoting the line to the people that matter most, not leisure tourists but those who could use the service day in, day out. Also, I have never seen a pacer run on the line and doubt I ever will as the service is also used to swap stock in North Wales IIRC so a pacer will not travel along the line. That and there is an understanding from what I remember between HOWLTA and ATW to run at least a sprinter on the line.

back on topic, there is a catering service on some trains on the Heart of Wales line but as far as I can tell is hit and miss whther it is on the train as it run independantly from ATW. again, this all stems down to the close relationship with the TOC and HOWLTA who do a fantastic job in improving services on the line.

If anyone would like any more information on the line I will try my best to answer your queries. For a small line there sure is a lot to talk about.

Hello matt473, Welcome to the Coffee Shop.. And thank you for your offer of information on the Heart of Wales line too  :)

Thanks to everyone for the info on the Heart of Wales and West Wales lines. It would be interesting to see a typical diagram of ATW Wales services.

It sounds like most services that start at Swansea are 153's or 150s as the "swanline" Swansea to Cardiff services tend to be run by a mix of 153s/150s.  Ive noticed that the 1910 Swansea to Cardiff "swanline" service is always a 175 tho - i think thats because the service starts further West in Carmarthen or Milford Haven and this diagram was obviously used for a Manchester-West Wales service earlier in the day.

Dont often see Pacers West of Bridgend in my experience - occasionally ive seen one used on "swanline" but very rare.  West of Brigend its normally either 153's or 150's for the more local services or 175's for the long distance West Wales to Manchester services. And FGW high speed trains of course!

The 1910 starts at Milford - instead of leaving Swansea at 1855 for Manchester, it connects with the fast train and waits until 1910 - probably as a means of ending the diagram at Cardiff. The Swanline unit on the 1738 from Cardiff (now starts at Ebbw Vale) returns to Cardiff on the fast train, which in fact goes to Cheltenham instead of Manchester. The Manchester that it would form starts at Maesteg.

I believe the current daytime Swanlines are a 153 (which starts as the early Shrewsbury-Swansea-Cardiff) and a 150. Some early morning and later evening runs are covered by through trains, many of which are 175s. Pacers used to be used on the 193x CDF-SWA, but since December (IIRC) that's been replaced by extra stops on the 1904 off Cardiff (which is the daily Manchester - Pembroke Dock). Now that the first and last Pembrokes are 175s, I would guess that it's mostly 175s that stable at Carmarthen overnight.

These days not many 158s make it west of Cardiff - they have to be used on the Cambrian lines, which since December (when they were extended to Bham Intl) have interworked with Birmingham-Holyheads, so half of the departures from Holyhead must be 158s. The rest are used on some CDF-HHD and Maesteg/Cheltenhams.

Is anyone willing to pay for extra trains on the Heart of Wales line?  I've always thought that there is an significant untapped marked on the south end of the Heart of Wales line - especially Pontarddulais/Ammanford, which are quite big places within commuting/shopping distance of Swansea/Llanelli, but with badly-timed trains as far as local traffic is concerned. Perhaps some comparison could be drawn with a certain well-known place in England, although in this case we're not talking about a recent reduction. Apart from Fishguard (which just has boat trains) it's the lowest frequency on the ATW network. There are regular buses from Swansea to Ammanford/Llandeilo, which suggests there is a reasonable market - but this does of course tell the bean-counters that the social need is being met by buses. The trains aren't the fastest, especially with the dogleg via Llanelli, but they're much quicker than the buses and I don't think the journey time compares too badly to the time by car. Some time ago I had a look at the timetable and tried to work out what might be feasible. As a start, two-hourly Llanelli-Llandeilo would certainly be feasible if someone could magic up another 153. Hourly would be possible, but would make things tight on the single line between Morlais Jn and Llandeilo. Extension to Swansea like the existing trains would be very useful (and help encourage travel) but might require more units, and would be a nightmare to time across the single line through Gowerton.

A few years ago ATW was looking for 101s to use as tourist trains (for Blaeneu Ffestiniog and Heart of Wales I think). This would have been good for covering the weekend tourist demand without finding more Sprinters, as well as being a marketing feature. It would be nice to have units with a forward view! There was something about this on the Railcar site. I believe it fell through because no-one wanted to give up a 101 in reasonable condition. So the request changed to a 121, which ended up being found for Cardiff Bay.

It's occurred to me too that the communities at the southern end of the HoW line enjoy a much poorer service than they would if they were on a normal welsh branch line. As well as commuting options for Swansea and Llanelli, a direct service into the capital could be run via the Swansea District Line, with journey times of around an hour. 

People at the Southern end do need a better service as the times are favourable when compared to the bus, even with having to stop and reverse at Llanelli. Being quicker and cheaper than the bus should have people flocking to the service but so little advertising takes place it is criminal. But the whole line is important and needs a better service at there is surprisingly a large amount of people who use the line to get to school for example or travel from rural areas to towns like Llandrindod Wells to get to shops as there are no busses running in the area. No doubt many comparisons can be made with the Cornish branchlines which also seem to be neglected despite the vast potential to develop services.

Comparisons that spring to mind are:

Newquay - was 4 per day (except summer extras), not usefully timed, but as we all know had some useful improvements recently.

Far North - 3? per day, but had some shuttles added at the southern end a few years ago to provide a more useful service to provide more journey opportunities from the areas closer to Inverness.

I think the Cornish branchlines are far from neglected. Half hourly on the St Ives and Falmouth lines, and a recent increase in service on the Newquay line to 7 a day.

Mark Pritchard is the one MP who enjoys knocking Wrexham & Shropshire, has in the past described them as a franchised operator, and seemed to be the only person taken in by Virgin Trains now binned idea to run services to Shrewsbury.

Another howler:-
http://www.markpritchard.com/search/article.php?id=1350
when Mark thinks the overrun was at Liverpool Lime St, not Liverpool St. Still neither are very close to his constituency, so I suppose it's too much to ask him to check his facts before speaking in the Commons.

In other words, he hasn't a clue about the railways  >:(, though presumably he makes sure he keeps his train tickets to claim back his expenses.  ;D

Thanks to everyone for the info on ATW diagrams.

How many diagrams on Maesteg to Cheltenham Spa are 158's and 150s? I saw a 175 on this service yesterday - around 7.30pm at Gloucester and heading for Cheltenham so I assume it was a working on this service.


I also assume the 20xx service from Cardiff goes to Chester rather than Manchester as this train goes to the Chester depot.  Most trains in Chester seem to be 175s - with the occasional 158.

153's are strange units the 143's were designed for short commuter journeys and small branch lines the 153's are frequently used to increase capacity on these services they were however built as class 155's and modified to become 1 car units the 155's were designed to run on medium distance provincial routes as a result have long coaches only 1 door at each end and tables on the back of each seat aswell as larger tables for 4.

which means that you are in the strange situation of having short branchlines with trains with tables and comfortable seats and the other extreme of pacers being used on longer distance routes busy ones at that so it could be argued that some of the lesser used services have a superior ride quality to that of busy commuter services

when a 153 is added to a 142 its like having 1st and standard class.... maybee they should start charging extra lol jk

lol i may take my camera up cardiff tomorow i fancie a day out, im halfway threw sorting me flickr account out

lol! Well im sure to what usually gets sent up to Maesteg a 175 is first class!!

I have changed the title of this to Arriva Trains Wales services as discussion is more general rather than about just catering facilities.

I just noticed a 142 is running a swanline service today.

The 17.21 Cardiff-Maesteg is a 175 - it was well-known for overcrowding, which wasn't helped when it ended up carrying a lot of CDF/BGN commuters after the 1515 PAD-SWA was cut back to Cardiff. It has been a 3-car for some time now, with the platforms having been extended on the Maesteg branch. It's an extension of a Holyhead-Cardiff working, which is advertised as a through HHD-MST service these days. For the first year of the Standard Pattern Timetable that HHD-CDF formed the 1738 Swanline, before switching to Maesteg, and later becoming an advertised through service.

Looking at the timetable the one that passes Gloucester at 7.30pm traces back to the 11.18 CDF-MST, which originates at Holyhead. I think it was a 158 when I saw it a few weeks ago.

A few other Chester/Holyheads go through to Maesteg - the timings naturally fit together. Since  May they've become advertised through trains. This feeds a number of 158s into the Maesteg/Cardiff/Cheltenham circuit. Before the SPT most of the Maesteg trains were Pacers (often to/from Coryton), but now Maesteg sees a lot of express units for a local service.

I found some ATW diagrams on the web a couple of years ago. They're a good guide to the general pattern, but there have been a lot of changes since then.

I didn^t realise 175^s went to Maesteg - I heard about the 1721 being overcrowded with it being the first service calling at Bridgend after the traditional finishing work time of 5pm (the 1704 to Carmarthen probably cutting it fine).

Im surprised they don^t run the Swanline at 1714 in line with the 2 hourly pattern (1314, 1514 etc) but I understand its at 1738, around 10 minutes before the FGW high speed service.

It makes sense to incorporate Maesteg/Cheltenham diagrams with some of the Holyheads I guess. 

I remember the days when we used to get services from West Wales to destinations such as Bristol Temple Meads/Penzance/Portsmouth - even when ATW took over we still got some (maybe not Portsmouth but definitely 1 a day to Penzance) but they were withdrawn with December 05 TT change.  Anyone know why?

They were pointless, slow and hideously uncomfortable for such a journey.

A 158 on Manchester - Penzance via the Marches in Summer, what a nightmare!!

I would guess it's a combination of:
- When the Standard Pattern Timetable started there was another departure around 1715, in the form of the 1515 PAD-SWA.
- 1738 is quite a useful time.; 1714 might be a bit too early for some commuters, bearing in mind that there's not another Swanline departure until after 7pm, and the 1704 also makes Swanline stops.
- The working that forms it arrives in time for a 1738 departure. Currently it's a through service from Ebbw Vale.


The draft SPT retained the through services - a couple to Penzance and several more to Bristol. They were just bolted onto the Holyhead/Cardiffs, complete with doubling back between Newport and Cardiff and a long wait at Cardiff. I suppose someone just decided it duplicated Wessex's role, and those units would have been locked away from the ATW core network doing something other TOCs can do.

Through trains at least as far as Bristol TM would be extremely useful. There have been suggestions that ATW should take over Bristol-Cardiff, or at least the stopping trains (Cardiff-Portsmouth is also very useful and I don't think it should be split, which would mean FGW keeping it). I'd like to see Carmarthen/Swansea to Bristol, but I'm not sure what they would do west of Cardiff. One suggestion is extending the Swanlines to Bristol, but I can't see that really working path-wise. It would be nice to see through trains to Bristol that connect with SWT to Waterloo.

The swanline service that passes Neath at around 2150 was a 158 this evening - Hafren, do you know what this diagram is used for earlier in the day and is a normally a 158? I dont usually catch this one. I was expecting a 153!

I noticed today that the 1327 from Fishguard Harbour now forms the 1605 Cardiff-Cheltenham Spa service and is advertised as a through service from Fishguard to Cheltenham.  I remember before it used to form the 1608 to Abergavenny before that service was withdrawn.

I suppose this is handy for people travelling from Fishguard, Carmarthen and Llanelli who want to connect with a long distance Crosscountry service and can do so now with 1 change at Cheltenham rather than changing at Cardiff also.

That one is the 19-something from Pembroke Dock. I haven't seen that service or anything earlier in the day that would form it since the May timetable change. It must be the diagram that starts with the 0900ish CMN-SWA and then the 1005 SWA-PMD. I am a bit intrigued by that diagram, as it's done some odd things as of May that I can't quite work out!

Once the Cambrian lines are covered (158s are needed for RETB operation), and the Holyheads (some of which interwork with Cambrian lines), and some Maestegs/Cheltenhams, there can't be many 158s left for anywhere else!

On the subject of express units on Swanline, either my eyes have been playing tricks on me or the morning Carmarthen-Swanline-Cardiff has been a 175 the last couple of days...

After looking at the live departure boards tonight on the website i noticed that service originated from Pembroke Dock. It was a 153 tonight - perhaps it being a 158 yesterday was a one off. I was happy it was as I was travelling on it last night and I dont like 153's much! I guess units are mixed and matched on the swanline/heart of wales/pembroke dock services with them all being 2 hourly and starting at Swansea so units get moved around these services to fit in with diagrams.

Is the early morning swanline you refer to the one that would arrive into Cardiff around 8.20am? I think that is always a 175 now - not sure what service that runs later on - perhaps the 9.20 from Cardiff to Holyhead? Cant recall any other 175's that start at Cardiff.

I guess the same is true of 175's - they run the West Wales-Manchester and North Wales-Manchester services, plus I think they run most of the Cardiff-Holyheads now. So there cant be many of them spare for other routes either.

Maesteg-Cheltenham seems to be a mix of 150's and 158's - with the occasional 175.

Anyone know why the 19:10 from Milford Haven now appears to terminate in Cardiff Central and not continue to Crewe?

There appears to be a service to Crewe at 2155 from Cardiff Central (it may be the same unit that runs this service) so its strange its no longer advertised as a through unit.

Difficult to say without any inside knowledge. My first reaction was that it might no longer be advertised as a through train to allow flexibility to re-start the train from Cardiff if the working from Milford was running late. However, ask NRES for a journey from MFH - CRE and it's still 1910 depart, arr CDF 2147, dep CDF 2155, arr CRE 0100. So it's definitely still an advertised connection, meaning that ATW would have to make alternative arrangements were it to be missed. Can only assume that it's a different unit now.

Ahh the good old early morning 158 to Devon from manc threw Wales I remember it well! Mummy where's the buffet?

Most likely it is another unit running it then. Perhaps one unit stays in Cardiff overnight to start as service there the next morning, and the other is then in Crewe for the first Crewe-West Wales service the next day.

I think it's mostly a case of the west Wales branches to Milford Haven and Pembroke not justifying quite as frequent a service as during the week, and the numbers of people between Swansea and Cardiff not being enough to justify two or three trains an hour, with one full length HST being sufficient until mid-afternoon when the ATW service frequency steps up a little. An hourly through service between Swansea/Cardiff and London is certainly warranted on a Sunday.

You could shave maybe 5-7 minutes off the timings to Swansea if you removed the stops after Cardiff, but that isn't really justified given that Bridgend, Port Talbot and Neath passengers would have to change at Cardiff - all three places have populations between 35000-45000 so they're pretty big places.

It seems natural to me that FGW should operate the the early and late trains. FGW is the TOC that has a depot at Swansea and runs the London trains, which need to be in London in the morning peak, hence early morning departures from Wales, and come back late at night. With that in mind, there's not much point in ATW running any more trains unless someone decides that more early/late Swanline or Carmarthen trains are needed. Arriva running trains in at these times (bearing in mind that Carmarthen and Cardiff are the natural terminating points, not Swansea) strikes me as being just doing something arbitrary for the sake of running Welsh trains in Wales. Arriva operates the 'Welsh' TOC but FGW is equally imporant to Cardiff and Swansea as the London InterCity operator.

The relevant section of the FGW franchise specification (A2) can be found on pages 12-15 of http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/publicregister/current/fgw/fgwcommitment2b.pdf

Some very late/very early FGW trains are the truncated Fishguard HSTs: they now connect at Swansea with the 2345 SWA-FGH and the 0150 FGH-SWA operated by ATW. I think that ferry connection is the main reason for the incredibly early HST off Swansea, as I can't imagine there are that many business travellers who want to leave SWA that early in the morning to be in London by 0700...

Could also be a stock positioning move ran as a service as Landore is somewhat of a busy depot. Apparently they are the best depot with dealing with certain troublesome powercars with a certain component (think is a motor of some sort) so maybe these Landore based sets need to make their way to London and may as well make a service out of it

I think its more convenient for FGW to run the early morning/late night services as these are intercity services to London, and anything that runs through the severn tunnel isnt run by ATW!  As many have pointed out it makes sense for the 4am, 5am, 6am, 6.30 services from Swansea to be run by FGW rather than ATW run a service and then connect at Cardiff with the HST train.

I think the majority of services on a Sunday as FGW is also because there is an hourly service to London whilst the West Wales/Swanline/Mancheter service is 2 hourly I believe (at least West of Cardiff).

I take it FGW dont store any trains overnight/have a depot at Cardiff then since all the early morning services to London start at Swansea. The first to start at Cardiff I believe is the 0955.

The majority of trains between Newport and Cardiff are also operated by FGW. Newport must be one of the few stations in Wales where more FGW trains call there than ATW.

Yes, you're right, Landore looks after all the HST sets with GEC traction motors, which have always been more maintenance-heavy than the Brush motors fitted to the majority of the fleet. I think there are about 30 Class 43s running with the GEC type.

Ive noticed the majority of Cardiff-Holyhead services are 175's now. The 1720 from Cardiff today was. Do any 158's run this service at all?

Most of the time now the class 158's are on the cambrian line services and on the maesteg - cheltenham services

There are a few 158-operated Cardiff-Holyhead services, e.g. some of the daytime Holyhead-Maestegs (the evening peak Maesteg is a 175, although I've seem a 158 on it a couple of times recently) . There'll always need to be a few 158s between Cardiff and Holyhead to swap units between the Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead cycle and the Maesteg/Cheltenham route.

Was I seeing things earlier or did a Pacer run the service which would be the 1650 from Cardiff to Manchester?

Will there be a unit swap at Cardiff as id be surprised if a Pacer ran the whole service.

Lots of delays and cancellations west of Cardiff this morning with the 0950 Manchester service starting at Cardiff. Apparently its due to a broken down train.

Has anyone noticed the 1900 off Swansea is now just as far as Cardiff Central not Cheltenham Spa as in the previous timetable? Is this because there isnt a need to extend the service to Cheltenham or is the Cardiff-Cheltenham leg of the journey covered sufficiently by the 19xx XC service to Birmingham/Nottingham?

STAG are not happy about several changes implemented by Arriva including lost connections at STJ.  More on their website, saveseverntunnel.co.uk

Thanks John.

The service to Cheltenham Spa if I remeber rightly is ran on a commercial basis as it is outside of the franchise agreement so could easily be cut back. Probably this service meets the requirements of the franchise for services between Cardiff and Swansea so Arriva may be cutting this back as far as possible, After all the Cross Country franchise they have is struggling and I wouldn't be surprised if the Wales Franshise is having problems as well, or at least Arriva cutting back on uneccesary costs for the rail division as a whole.

Only the recent extension from Gloucester to Cheltenham Spa is outwith the franchise. But of course the legal eagles will have made sure that the changes do not breach the franchise commitment.

One of the gripes of STAG is that having persuaded FGW to make additional stops to connect with services to Chepstow and beyond, the connections no longer exist.   

I wonder how long the extension to Cheltenham will run for if it isnt in the franchise agreement?

Considering it is still in place after being introduced a few years ago suggests the service is profitable so will continue until it ceases to do so. It is however possible though that the DFT may stump up cash to maintain the service if ATW were to wish to remove it but a case can be argued that a service is important for and should be retained as a connection to the main XC network

I doubt whether it costs much. The unit and crew would be waiting at Glos anyway, so it's only a bit of fuel and track access charges.

It probably pays for itself with ORCATS revenue reallocated from other operators.

I'm pretty sure the saturday service nearly always has catering - I often get the first service to crewe from ludlow which unexpectedly has catering on it - its the trolley to work the HOW lines