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I posted this here as I didn't want to post it in the topic in Weekend First Upgrades. I don't intentionally mean to be controversial as it seems there are a few members on this forum who use the Cotswold Line but I am going to post my views on the line, I want to know what people think about the line and my thoughts. I would like to point out I have never used the line but this is just my analysis.
It is 86.5 miles long from Oxford-Hereford, the line is mainly single line, limiting the timetable. From what I have read usage is quite limited. The service at the moment doesn't really seem to fit with demand in my opinion. The use of HSTs on the line at off-peak times seems a waste to me. I have heard people mention how the service isn't very busy at these times. An HST is very high capacity and for what seems like a predominantly local line it seems a waste using them, when they are designed for high speed service.
The only need I can see for HSTs is for peak services to and from London, with round day trip opportunity's on Saturdays. If a service was operated with three peak time arrivals and three peak time departures from London, the current commuter market could be retained. On Saturdays and Sundays two peak trains could be replaced with day trip opportunity's.
I read that with the redoubling completed an hourly service could be started. Surely then to fill the gaps in peak trains, an hourly FGW stopping service from Worcester-Oxford would be fine, calling at all stations with good connections at Oxford for fast services to Paddington and Worcester for services to Hereford, the line would probably be best served with 158s or 150s although turbos could be used. If 158s ran an hourly off peak service, customers would still receive a high quality service, with most stations receiving a better service than now. Although through journey times would be slower, through journey opportunity's would be much greater, with a clockface timetable with good connections allowing journeys from any station on the line to any other.
With peak fast services to London formed of HSTs and off peak services calling at all stations but regularly with 158s the line IMO, would be better served than now, no need to run half full HSTs up the line at off peak times. With the introduction of cheap advance purchase fares I am sure FGW would win some customers.

I dont often agree with you but on this I do

The problem is what defined an express on the cotswolds

Lets start at Worcester

Worcester Shurb Hill - Needed - obnly station with car park


Worcester Foregate Street - think could be missed out on the peaks as so close to shrub hill and more used by shoppers, people working in worcester

Pershore - not needed on express - drive to evesham.  At a push - as back in 2004 - one stopped there, one didnt

Evesham - needed

honeyborne - not needed o express (never used to be served by HST)

Morton in Marsh - needed

Kingham/Charlbury - too many people with too much money to not stop

Hanborough - see honeybourne - I dont care whether DC has his constituecy there or not

Oxford - nuff said

Back in 2004, Cathdrals express did not stop at Reading - first stop oxford - thats not going to happen again sadly.

The problem is there are too many through trains - so people have too much choice - WHILST THE JOURNEY TAKES 2.5 hours. 

Reduce the journey time - more people may move back again.

It journey time thats the issue

Exactly, a couple of better timed expresses with connecting local trains, which are of a higher quality than turbos is more what the line needs.

I don't think 158/150's should go up there though.  Thats a bit off there patch!

It is only considered off there patch because they don't go there, there is no reason why they couldn't. They would offer a better level of service than turbos. And orginally Class 158s were destined for the Cotswold Line, but the order got changed to 159s for the London-Exeter route, how different things could have been.

Er - Malvern to Weymouth I believe - 158s?

Theres definitely some Malvern services that is  15X

All Malvern services which come from Bristol are a 15x.

lucky fgw has so many spare dmu's isnt it

/the trains that need to be HST are:

IMHO:

Up service
530sih - misses pershore stops at honeybourne and hanborough in addition to the core - by the time it gets to these stations the hour is almost civilised

630ish - express - misses pershore, honeybourne and hanborough

730ish - stops at pershore but not honeybourne or hanborough
+ first off peak (its rammed)

any other up service is a connection at oxford serving all stations

Down service:

1722 - stops all stations except the halts
1751 - run it only to oxford - its so slow north of there it only arrives minutes before the 1822 and often holds it up - connect with a fast service to WOS
1822 - express - reverse of the 0630ih
1922 - stops al stations except the halts

After the re-doubling, FGW will probably do something along the lines suggested in the above posts.

They are possibly getting new 172 stock. This can probably run the hourly local service.

There is to be a Turbo shuttle from Didcot to Morteon, this will allow ALL halts and Hanborough to be axed from all HSTs.

We then just need a few HSTs here and there running peak expresses: London, Reading, Oxford (in no more than 55 mins), Charlbury, Kingham, Morteon, Evesham, Worcesters (as close to 2 hours as possible with line speeds) Malverns, Ledbury and Hereford.

The first off peak train of the day to London should also run as an HST - but calling at Pershore and Honeybourne. (but certainly NOT Hanborough, who will have its hourly shuttle - a generous service in itself!)

In addition, more Evesham to Worcester services should be provided, either by FGW, or LM extending some if its B'ham services. However, this will have to wait until the double track is extended to Worcester.

Does Ledbury really qualify on an express?  Only reason I can see is that its double track s gives a passing point - and if you are stopped anyway!

Also - do the expresses really need to stop at both worcesters?  I can see it eing convenient but when I use foregate the passenger numbers are scarce

Well, can't see many benefits of missing it out, as it is the only intermediate point.

However, if loadings are low... ;)

To be honest, the journey time reductions are needed East of Worcester more drastically, and to benefit more people.

Well with SDO and a curved platform with a huge gap to the train!  From experience - being a mere passenger - Foregate is more used by LM commuters.

There is almost a similar argument to be made with the two Malverns - although they arent as close!

Why honeybourne? it will be covered by the shuttle as well as is south of moreton.    Skip it

Perhaps I'm misreading your post, but are you suggesting that the 15:51ex Paddington doesn't need to be a HST?

I think ive only been on it twice so have no real opinion - except that it seemed to follow the normal patter - rammed to oxford and relatively light on/off beyond until WOS when 99% got off.  Maybe it coud be a HST but I think HST to Oxford and then a 158 etc beyond - its a 2+7 anyway

The reason I dont lie 2+7 is its impossible to get a proper cold drink on them unless you want ice - especially since I now have to pay for tepid coke.   Not everyone drinks tea and coffee.

wouldn't it be better using the lhs from the taunton to cardiff add a couple of carriages and a buffet and use a turbo on the taunton-cardiff

No.

Well, having been on it more than once or twice myself, I'll offer my opinion. It's a very popular train should be at the very least a 2+7 HST (bearing in mind these will all soon be fitted with a buffet car, so you'll get your cold drinks without ice). It is usually about 80% full after leaving Oxford (busier on Friday's) dropping off steadily at all the stations en route until it has about 80-100 people left on board at Worcester. You think that is a suitable train to run only as far as Oxford? With everybody then having to trapse off and wander over to platform 3 for a connecting low capacity 158, adding at least five minutes to the journey and providing nowhere near enough seats until around Moreton?

If you are seriously suggesting that, then if it ever actually happens I'll arrange for you to spend the month in FGW Customer services dealing with all the complaints!

II - don't even bother - we're back to the usual fantasy land stuff about how special Worcester is and everyone else on the Cotswold Line and elsewhere on the FGW network can go to hell.

How can you take this stuff seriously when:

Someone says Honeybourne is south of Moreton?

They clearly never tried to catch one of the Herefords in a morning at Evesham before the extra stops in the Vale were inserted - chaos in the car park and streets around Evesham station.

Who almost never use the 15.51, so appear to have no idea it is as heavily loaded, if not more so, than the 17.22 and 18.22  - and it is like this well beyond Oxford, as you say

Say a Didcot-Moreton shuttle will run - no, it's just a proposal at present

Say a 150 would be a better level of service than a Turbo - have you been on an LM 150 recently (coming FGW's way soon)? Totally knackered and getting minimum maintenance.

Talk about 172s that have not even been ordered yet as though they are a done deal - two months past the Government's own April deadline and counting... and won't be in service until 2012 at the earliest, many months after redoubling is completed.

Continue to just brush off the heavy demand in the peaks for through travel between Hanborough, Reading and London - the stops there are nothing to do with who the MP is, they are to do with making money. For the umpteenth time, it doesn't just serve the village, it is the station for Woodstock and Witney.

Blithely dismiss the need for through Cotswold trains apart from the times when they travel - the 8.52 and 9.52 from Malvern are carrying 250 people most days when they reach Oxford - 300 or so on the 8.52 on stupid days. So clearly there's no demand there.

And best of all say, there are too many through trains Yes. let's turn the clock back to 1992.... getting soaked moving between platforms at Oxford on a winter night again - that will do wonders for the passenger figures.

cereal basher, the usage of the line exploded in 1993 once Turbos and through trains all day round arrived - there is a reason we have through trains, because lots of people use them to travel past Oxford both ways.

HSTs are capacity overkill on many of the off-peak trains but they are all FGW has available in this area apart from turbos, which aren't adequate for the peak shoulder services. Getting rid of 180s was a mistake in the capacity respect, but their reliability was shocking at times and is still causing problems now for the new operators - and some proper local marketing of the line itself, the Cotswold Line Railcard and the top-secret LM-set bargain evening fare between the stations from Moreton westwards would all help to fill some of those empty seats.

basically will i think its the minority that wants to go first class and have a traveling cheff or something silly that is complianing

How can you say "how special Worcester is and everyone else on the Cotswold Line and elsewhere on the FGW network can go to hell."

If we had it your way, it would be how special the Cotswold villages are, Worcester and Hereford can go to hell.

The fact of the matter is, Worcester and Hereford need faster trains, esp in the peak hours.

I was under the impression they were all travelling by Chiltern Rlys?

And if the Cotswold got faster, they'd switch back - plus a huge amount of new traffic.

Clearly you don't understand that FGW runs as many trains as it can to cater for the actual demand that is nearer to Oxford (i'm sure willc will confirm) and as such they are unable to run faster trains at Worcester/Hereford.

I fail to see why anybody would choose Chiltern with their DMUs (who knows - you might get a turbo heaven forbid) vice an HST on the morning peak services, just because it is a bit slower than it used to be...

Do Chiltern offer First Class/DECENT buffet facilities? If not then quite why any sane business(wo)man would evade the Cotswolds i'm not sure. Anyway, its about to be doubled, so why all the fuss - no doubt redoubling will make things a hell of a lot faster.

I'm surprised that with their obviously passionate views about the speed of services on the Cotswold Line that neither Btline or FallenAngel gave their thoughts on the timetable possibility that I worked on based on the potential of the current redoubling scheme (located herehttp://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3602.240 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3602.240) in the Cotswold Line Redoubling thread).

So, I'll ask them directly. Do you both think a timetable of this nature would be enough to win back all/most/some/hardly any of this lost custom to Chiltern and other operators? After all, almost all of the slack is removed from the timetable - albeit with very few station stops removed. If not, what should be done to improve upon it?

how long is this journey?

MY first comment, is the fact that you won't get a path leaving Paddington at xx12. 2 behind HEX and 3 in front of CDF.

Probably because much of that thread i was in belfast and not as active on here!

Just looked at it - funnily enough - the timings are what they were back in 2004 - give or take.

To be honest, If the peaks are HST through, I have no real passion about the stock.  What bugs me the most is the erosion timetable change by time table change of the main peak into London.

There needs to be a train arriving into Paddington at 830ish - that means you have a fighting chance to get to the office by 9.  The 0635 used to do that.  Now the 0624 gets you in closer to 9am!  Unless you work on the doorstep of Paddington, 930 is your earliest chance of getting in.  Now do that, and try leaving the office before 6pm to get the 1822 regularly and see how long you last.

And for those of us who dont actually live in Worcester, the 530ish means getting up close to 0445 every morning to then get home at 2130.  Even im not that mental.

Did I not comment? I'm sure I said that a 4.15 pm-ish departure from Worcester to at least Evesham would me needed.

I remember being impressed with the journey time reductions. A headline time of less than 2 hours to Worcester would be achievable by the removal of a stop or two.

Malvern - Bristol is not the Cotswold line though is it.  Travelling to/from Oxford for class 15x would require traincrew route learning/traincrew traction learning ( depending on which depot would operate them ) and possible line clearence.

Neither HEX or Cardiff times are set in stone, witness the recent swap between Bristol and Swansea/Cardiff's from/to xx:15/45 and xx:00/30. As I mentioned at the time, it was undertaken with a view to getting the best out of the redoubling and wasn't attempting to fit into current paths between Paddington and Oxford, or indeed between Worcester and Hereford.

Thank you to both Btline and FallenAngel for responding, but neither of you actually answered my question...  ;)

I think you will find i did!

For the long distance commuter, 2004 was the best IMHO.  I cant comment about what it was like before then.  If they could achieve timings like that, I'd be happy.  I really dont have any opinion on the morning and afternoon off peaks - if im on them, something has gone wrong or im ill.  I just feel for the poor punters who have to use them!

And as I've said before, most people using the trains - and I don't include you - couldn't give a damn about whether it was 1hr 59min, or 2hr 10min post-redoubling. What they want, in either direction in the peak, is to know that there will be a train every 30 minutes going to or from London and will use the one that suits their needs, not pick one just because it's a few minutes quicker.

Extra custom? The road journey between Worcester and London is so long no-one with any sense would do it on a regular basis, so there won't be much modal shift there.

National Express thinks the London-Worcester market is so lucrative - despite all the horrors that we apparently suffer every day we set foot on our trains (which, beyond a crowded Turbo that shouldn't be on the 8.52 ex-Malvern, I haven't noticed lately) - that it runs two coaches a day each way, which take about four hours.

And I simply don't believe that so many people drive to Warwick, Bham International or anywhere else, for an overall journey that is longer than the slowcoach Cotswold Line, that were there to be a 2hr fast train, the traffic jams on the M42 in the rush hour would simply disappear, because no-one from Worcester would be using their cars any more.

If things are as bad as you claim, then there would have been a clear, measurable drop in custom at the Worcester stations - there hasn't been - or maybe there's just a constant supply of more suckers turning up to endure the interminable journey, never to return? And forget Birmingham commuters, the apocalyptic vision you paint would seem to imply no-one now uses the trains west of Evesham - which would show up in the figures. It doesn't, because they still do, even if they have to suffer all us oiks insisting on getting on their trains in the middle of nowhere along the way.


But how many people are there who do, or would even contemplate, the journey you do as a daily commute? Not a lot. And 2004 was when FGW took over from Thames and had to look at the bigger picture on the route, not just running a couple of peak trains a day each way.

As for the structure of the timetable out of Paddington, the first service that gets written in at present is the Oxford/Cotswold one, because of the pathing on the single-line sections. The recent padding has been put in to try to keep the trains in the right slots between Didcot and London and stop them messing up every other service on the route. The redoubling scheme was sold to the ORR on the basis that it would help achieve this objective as well. I gather some within FGW are not happy at Network Rail pushing back completion into early 2011, as they want it done in time for the December 2010 timetable change, so that they can recast the timetable quite substantially, so what times certain services leave Paddington at now is neither here nor there - they may not do in future.

PS: In case anyone was wondering about the LM evening fare I mentioned yesterday, it's called the Super Off Peak and is available within the area bounded by Moreton-in-Marsh, Worcester, Hereford, Bromsgrove and Stourbridge Town. ^3.50 return any journey for an adult, ^7 for two adults and two children, valid on the Cotswold Line from the 17.37 departure from Moreton onwards, thanks to CLPG pressure, which got the start time moved forward from 18.00. Only promotion it ever gets seems to be from the CLPG. I beleive it's set by LM because it was invented by BR Regional Railways when it operated the Cotswold Line local service from Worcester in pre-Turbo days.

As a Hereford dweller (tho' hopefully - or should that be sadly as I've enjoyed my time here - not for too much longer) what is needed is, say, two fast expresses from Hereford/Malvern/ Worcester.

Er - is that not because charlbury is just over an hour from london but evesham these days is about 90 minutes plus. 

And also given the demographics of the cotswolds is full of city lawyer types (I see them every day talking about what tarquin and tabatha are doing at the weekend and how their horses are doing).  And yes part of that statement is jealousy because I cant afford a 4 bed detached with land in charlbury but can near ludlow! 

However - with direct trains to london, charlbury given the other factors will always have more passengers to london etc HOWEVER - I do think neglect of the further stations is an issue.

I now do not rank central london contracts as being an option unless they are flexible hours.  Why? because a 630ish train in the morning used to get me into PAD at 830ish and I could get to most places at a reasonable time.  I don't like 530 - requires me to get up at 430 which is inhumane when you dont sleep much before 2am! 

I cant commit to a london contract unless they are happy with a 930 or 10am start and no lunch to leave PAD at 1822 - so much change in six years, none of which is a good thing

I don't think Evesham has ever been within anything like 90 minutes of London, now the quickest train takes 113 minutes, maybe 10 minutes more than the fastest timings of 15 years ago?  Even if it was 90 minutes, that's enough to put off most people who would consider a commute on a daily basis - more people might well travel on business/leisure if the journey times from Worcester and Evesham were to improve, but I doubt many daily commuters would come out of the woodwork to accept a minimum of three hours on a train a day.

Thats why I'm a student - had to find something constructive to fill the hours

I don't actually know the timings from Evesham - I just know in 2004/5 there WERE regular commuters from evesham - I talked to them.  I then went off to manchester and nottingham for 18 months and when I came back they werent there anymore.   What I did notice was  that the sub 2 hour to london journey was now significantly longer and people from less ridiculous places were no longer travellling.  Just like I see people who used to commute now turning up to WOS with a suitcase in tow.  THIS IS WHAT I SEE.

It is not my job to pay for studies into traffic flow on trains.  But can anyone deny changing what used to be sub 120 minutes to PAD to 2.5 hours HASNT had an effect on traffic - and at least accept if it does, FGW does not want WOS commuters

Evesham is a known waiting point - its double track

I tink this is the crux of the argument do you prefer

(1) more trains but average time slower

(2) fewer trains getting there quicker

I always vote for (2)

How many? And might they not have changed jobs too?

Let's face it, you have admitted what you do in terms of daily commuting is quite exceptional.

90 minutes is seen as the outer limit of regular commuting and it's not as if there are hordes travelling from Moreton-in-Marsh every day, quite a few only do three or four days a week. The UK average commuter journey is something like 55 minutes, which is indeed why lots of people travel from Charlbury and contribute lots of money to the overall figures for the Cotswold Line, helping to pay for services out to Worcester to be at the level they currently are.

If FGW hates Worcester so much, why, just over a year ago, give it an extra early service to London? A service, which, like mid-evening trains, only used to serve the eastern end of the line, where the numbers using it, especially from Charlbury and a small place beginning with H, make it viable.

And the taper on season ticket rates is such that you're paying a lot less per mile than someone from Charlbury or Moreton. Again, it doesn't really smack of a hate campaign against Worcester.

I think if the timetable went back to the pre-1993 configuration, with all of two through trains to London, even you might vote for (1). It would certainly be very cheap to operate - which is rather more FGW's current obsession than discriminating against Worcester - with a couple of Turbos shuttling up and down the rest of the day.

Yes, a quicker journey time would have a positive affect on traffic, that point I made in my post.  What I was saying though (and I think Will concurs with this) is that realistically anything under 100 minutes isn't going to happen from Evesham to London and anything over 100 minutes would not bring enough daily commuters to make enough of a difference for FGW to actively bother about it.  Not a case of not wanting them, but more a case of not having a product that would be fast enough to tempt enough of them.

Sure, there are exceptions to the rule and sure, any reduction in journey times would be welcome and would have an impact on numbers travelling, but in the main for leisure and business, not for daily London commuting from Evesham and Worcester.


That's a train that could benefit the most from the re-doubling as at the moment it's practically useless with a long layover at Moreton.  I doubt there's ever been more than 10 passengers on board before Moreton and it only really runs as a service train because it might as well do, as it would have to run ECS otherwise and still stop at WOS and EVE for token purposes.

_{Note - post edited to being the heading in line with its new location. Nothing else altered! i_b}

But FGW were under no obligation to stable the stock overnight at Worcester and start the service there. It could still have run out just to Moreton as ECS from London (or Oxford/Reading in the past when it was a Turbo) and avoided the pathing problem created by now bringing the halts Turbo out ECS to Moreton, which forces the early arrival from Worcester at Moreton.

Granted.  It's a neater solution in many ways - Train crew book off/on at Worcester except for the driver who is the Oxford 'night man' who stays with the set and brings it back; ECS moves are cut down as instead of a HST running ECS all the way from Old Oak to Moreton with a TM and catering crew twiddling their thumbs, the Turbo runs only from Reading with just the Guard with their feet up; and of course people on the last down train at night benefit from a HST rather than a 2-car Turbo.  But, the redoubling will hopefully turn what is now a pretty useless 1st train from Worcester, into a more viable service for the early birds.

I can see the logic, but you still have that stand at Moreton for the HST, due to pathing, plus the Turbo is on such a tight timing to Evesham that it can't call at Honeybourne, where you would be more likely to find someone wanting an early train to Worcester than at Moreton. But as you say, not much you can do until the Evesham-Moreton bottleneck is removed.

I gather that the Friday 21.48 is likely to be going back to a Turbo shortly (in May?) as neither it, nor the first Saturday train from Malvern, are exactly traffic magnets.

Probably a sensible move provided a 3-car is used.  There's no reason why it shouldn't be, as there's no Shipton call on the return leg.  Perhaps one of the busier trains during the day on the Saturday will revert back to a HST to compensate, or perhaps the slow re-Turbo-fication of the Cotswold Line will continue...?

I've been on the 2148 twice and the only thing I will say is - as far as oxford as a female passenger with a sometimes AWOL guard (the two times I got it, the guard looked like he was just out of nappies and I could take him down if I wanted- I know thats not his job but....)  its not a nice train to take.

Nor for that matter is the 2022 when that was turboed.

Neither of them I would object to being a turbo 166 (not a botched 165) as far as WOS (Herefords another matter) as long as they were safe.


What bugs me is when they pull things like the 1751 and turbo them!  Or make the first off peak a turbo.

Or at weekends run turbos to hereford

I've been thinking about this. (I'm WFH tomorrow so I'm back on central time!)

I admit - if I could afford to move house whenever my contract location changes I would.  I cant.  If I could have  crystal ball and predict for a 3 year period I would main be London/Reading, I'd move back again.  I cant.

This is the first time I've been able to predict beyond six months.  So that explains my idiocy.

HOWEVER my idiocy comes because I live near ludlow so which ever way you look at it, from WOS its either 1.5 hours by train allowing for connections or between 25 and 60 minute drive depending on traffic and time of day.

IF you took off the commute at this end and getting the 1722 meant I was home by 2000 and not anywhere between 2030 and 2130 then - no I DONT think that is exceptional.

Nationwide the average may be 55 but in the south east?  I dont think two hours is out of the realms the normal curve.

I sometimes get fed up with my 12 minute walk every day.  ;)

According to research by the - dare I say it - TUC, based on the Office for National Statistics' Labour Force Survey "workers spend on average 52.6 minutes commuting every day. Workers in London have the longest commute (74.2 minutes), followed by workers in the South East (56.4 minutes) and the East of England (56 minutes). Workers in Wales (41 minutes) and the South West (44.8 minutes) have the shortest journeys to work".

The full TUC press release is at
http://www.tuc.org.uk/work_life/tuc-17223-f0.cfm (http://www.tuc.org.uk/work_life/tuc-17223-f0.cfm)