Great Western Coffee Shop

Decided to head to Cornwall later on today...

As it is a weekend instead of buying a Walkup First Ticket, I plan to buy a Standard Class ticket and upgrade to FC using Weekend First.

However, as I have never bought a Weekend First Upgrade, I am unsure of the procedure of obtaining said upgrade.

My question is, is it acceptable to buy the Standard Class ticket and then sit in First Class and pay the upgrade when the TM arrives? If not, what is the procedure. As I would be mildly annoyed if I got excessed to a First Day Single for having the wrong class ticket when I have full intentions to upgrade ;D

Also is it possible to buy the upgrade at a ticket office?

Thanks ;D

Friendly forum moderator trout ;) :P ;D :D

i guess we have both been awake all night, ive had the same thought there are plenty of posters and leaflets none of with bring up what to do, maybee we are over thinking about this? one option would to be get on at the buffet car and ask them if they tell you to sit in first you got comeback if its wrong

Yes you can buy a weekend 1st upgrade at the ticket office if purchasing a walk up ticket or purchase on board the train when the train manager checks your ticket. Advance ticket holders can only purchasse on board subject to weekend 1st accomodation being available.

Just for clarity on this...

The prices vary between XC, FGW and SWT

The ticket office tell you to buy the upgrade on the train...!

I was told just to sit in First Class and when the TM came round, ask for upgrade... When they did come round, this was provided without any issue or frowning whatsoever...! Infact they seemed pleased to offer me Weekend First ;D

However I think it is a little confusing... Taunton - Plymouth on XC is ^10 and ^5 with FGW... :-\

The ticket offices always tell you to buy on the train as their argument is that there may not be any space left in FC

Some of the 1st class advance fares are an absolute bargain, and well worth looking out - more often than you might think they're also the cheapest advance purchase option for a journey as well. I guess this is because people see "first class" and automatically assume it will be expensive.

Going back to purchasing weekend first from a booking office, I read one of Barry Doe's columns a little while ago which said that it was possible to purchase a through point-to-point WF upgrade for a multi-TOC journey by just paying the highest individual supplement, so to take an extreme example you could travel from Penzance to Dundee via London, using FGW and NXEC and buy a weekend first upgrade for the entire journey by paying whichever the higher supplement of the two would be.

Whether this still applies or you'd ever be able to get a booking clerk who could actually issue the ticket I have no idea...

Yes that still applies.  However you have to make a reservtion for the whole journey at the same time.  This is so a portion of the upgrade can be correctly allocated to the relevant TOC

what happens if you go from taunton to paignton on fgw on a standard walk up standard fair valid on all services on this route and then upgrade... could you catch an xc train home again? is the upgrade even valid both ways?

You pay a seperate upgrade fare for outward and return... XC Charge ^10 between Taunton & Plymouth, FGW Charge ^5


Correct... I did try to get it at the ticket office on both the outward and return... But they told me to get on, sit in FC and pay when the TM arrived. Sort of sets the wrong impression really, do that on a weekday and you would get shot...! However I knew the TM on the XC Service down to Plymouth. So he was more than happy to offer me an upgrade ;D

In all honesty I would have much prefered to upgrade at the ticket office when buying my ticket... Shows your not trying to fare dodge ;D

I didn't book advanced because I didn't know when I was coming back, looking at the delays of 3+ hours I encountered... That was a wise decision ;)

Thanks for that, I was wondering the exact same thing the other day... ;) :D

Isn't it tempting to do Taunton - Plymouth alighting at each station for an hour  :D ^5 well spent and lots of tea and coffee.

Hi folks
Could any TM/Guards on here comment on the loadings in First Class since new pricing structure introduced ?  :o
Many Thanks

When I travelled Castle Cary - Newton Abbot, all tables were taken up in H until at least Exeter. (1706 pad - ply)

Paradoxically I find it as busy if not busier than before.

It has not been pushed much by TM for a good few years.  However with the increases most have made the effort to advise passengers of the new rates so passengers do not get an unexpected shock when asekd for the higher amount.  So people who never knew about it before as now using it.

The weekend First from Worcester to London is ^15 by the looks of it.

Can I sit in Standard until Oxford, and then upgrade for ^5?

Do you get free refreshments on a Turbo with Weekend First? (on a Sunday)

Not surprised! Won't bother then.

On a Turbo, you are paying through the roof to gain Standard Class level accommodation, with no benefits.

Charging an extra ^15 for First Class on the Cotswold Line is scandalous. They should put Worcester into the ^5 zone, and reduce the price of walk up First tickets/ introduce First Advance tickets.

Where is the logic in that  ???

It would appear you just want Worcester to be ^5 so you would have to pay. I think Plymouth should be in the ^25 zone to make it ^5 Plymouth-Cornwall but that doesn't seem likely to happen.

I've never travelled in first class on a Turbo except driver-only services between Didcot and Oxford where there are no refreshments anyway, but the trolleys on Cotswold line services certainly do carry a supply of the smaller, "complimentary stock" tea and coffee cups which may mean that freebies are available.

On a vaguely related note, I think you are required to upgrade before joining the train on driver-only services to Reading and Oxford, and risk a penalty fare in this situation if you occupy FC without the relevant upgrade.

The reason why I think Worcester should be in the ^5 zone is value for money.

Other routes are pretty much guaranteed HSTs with leather seats, complementary refreshments and First Class standard seating.

On the Cotswold some trains are Turbos, and those that are HSTs are often Turboed - esp at weekends. FGW cannot justify the high fares when people end up sitting in Standard Class conditions. Seeing I can get a Virgin First Advance single for about ^20, where I get free food, alcohol, Wifi & audio system, the FGW First Class fares are criminal.

Alternatively, I can use Chiltern, where standard Class is the same standard as Turbo First Class for about ^25 return.

Banbury is in the ^5 zone - it has Turbos. So should Worcester.

Your theory falls to pieces when you get an HST. Why should you pay ^10 less than a passenger to Bristol travelling the same distance?

if your that unimpressed with the first class on turbos why dont you go standard?

[/quote]
On a vaguely related note, I think you are required to upgrade before joining the train on driver-only services to Reading and Oxford, and risk a penalty fare in this situation if you occupy FC without the relevant upgrade.
[/quote]

No I dont think that is true anymore since the price increase.  I have not seen it written anywhere that on some trains you must pay before you get on and on other you dont have to pay until you are on the train.  The system is now the same for all upgrades and they can be purchased on the train.

Ok - How many other lines have a service advertised as X but served by Y where the differential is as big as HST to turbo

At the weekend - any number of services can be turboed when they were advertised HST - may be the rule should be ....... if scheduled train, standard upgrade applies.  If turbostution, then lower upgrade.

I know other lines get set swaps but how many other up to 3 hours journeys are replaced by something as different from a HST as turbo!

I do vote with my feet - if I have to go to london at the weekend - I sure as hell dont go cotswolds - AND my season would normally cover most of it - thats how much I hate it

P.S Turbos are fine in the TV - even 166 to Oxford I can see - but ALL THE WAY TO HEREFORD!

Nope - I've never seen one going through ludlow either when I've been in town - worst ive seen is a 150

Do arriva have 143s?

Arriva have both 143s and 142s but they are mainly used on the Cardiff Valley Line routes.

To be fare, (erm I mean fair!) since the May T/T change the Cotswold Line service has run much more as advertised during the week and at weekends. Those trains that are supposed to be HST's (as advertised in the timetable) have nearly always been then. In fact on a Saturday the first up Turbo operated service of the day isn't until the evening - a bit of a paradox really as Saturday lunch time is one of the quieter times of the week for medium distance travel.

However, it will still happen from time to time due to failures, engineering work and so on, and I think your suggestion of a downgrade of the upgrade (so to speak) is a very sensible one.

NB: I have never gone First Class with FGW. And I won't until they either lower the price of walkup tickets, put Worcester and Hereford into the ^5 zone (or have s cheaper upgrade when a Turbo turns up) or introduce First Advance fares.

I do use Chiltern a lot - as do many Cotswold passengers - hence falling passenger numbers from the western part of the route. I am trying Virgin FC soon.

Even XC First Class is better than FGW! And that's HST as well.

Is it   ???

Guaranteed First Class level seating.

Free food and drink and host.

if you get a hst then fgw 1st class is the best in the region, however i have not been 1st class on a xc hst you never know

No. There are few First class seats on a Voyager


Did I rob the buffet a few weeks ago then ???


Not south of Bristol!

XC First Class is tatty, FGW seats are larger, line up with windows and offer more comfort. No underfloor engines either.

But that's if you get an HST!

And when I travelled FC on XC, I was given free tea/coke until I exploded!

And when on weekday FGW, i managed to consume quite a bit too. That fruit juice they do is nice, and those crisps!

Ah, those crisps. Have a packet in the morning and you're still tasting them all through the day.....

NOT ON THE COTSWOLDS LINE

I'm afraid I share the same bitter tastes for XC First Class as Devon_Metro as I may or may not have posted in other threads ;)

Although most of the staff are very good and helpful... there are certain individuals who like to make things a tad awkward for you... ::)

Occasionally you'll get a host from Bristol down to Plymouth. But that is only on the 15:44 & 16:44. Going up from Taunton, the 07:51, 08:51 and 09:51 have First Class hosts.

I have to say though that FGW First Class and catering services are IMO top notch... The only thing that I would comment on is maybe having WiFi and also fitting a disabled toilet to First Class as on XC HST's would be useful...

All I'll say is some Walkers Shortbread dunked in tetley's tea with a cinnimon (sp?) roll... ;D ;D ;D ;D

How about calorie free soft drinks other than water!

For one who is three weeks into a diet program...............it sucks its water, tea, cofee or nowt.  Yes, I do resent the removal of the free diet coke - I have a coke habit

Falling passenger numbers?  ???   

There are no Advance fares of any kind on the Cotswold Line. People reading this need to appreciate that what you get on the Cotswold line is A LOT WORSE than other FGW HSS.

Many passengers from the Western end of the line have deserted FGW, hence Charlbury is now higher than Evesham in passengers numbers.

You can AP from Hereford can't you. And I wouldn't really say your HSS is much worse than Cornwall. We are lucky if we get any catering, no at seat in First Class, very slow, stops everywhere.

Not via the Cotswolds you cant!  Think if you do, it has to be via NWP which basically means you pay the same as the cotwolds just with less flexibility

OK, it appears you can't, I swear I was told you could before. Walk on tickets are much less money than other areas though.
^39.50 walk on off peak or ^23 via Newport Advance Purchase. If you booked in advance why would you use Cotswolds from Hereford? It is slower and more expensive.

btline, perhaps I might refer you to the following thread about cotswold line passenger numbers from a year ago, which discussed the footfall at the various stations, which did not show people 'deserting' the line: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3007.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3007.0)

You may have - we get that - but please don't keep making these kind of unsubstantiated assertions that imply some kind of mass exodus - there may not have been the kind of growth in Worcestershire there has been elsewhere but nor are there signs of people abandoning the route - and Charlbury overtook Evesham because more people were making journeys to and from Charlbury, not because custom at Evesham had fallen off a cliff.

In the 2007-8 stats the recessiion seems to be starting to bite. Spreadsheet is at http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529 (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529) Evesham, Charlbury and Moreton are all down, Kingham is up, Pershore and Honeybourne steady, Shrub Hill up and Foregate Street a bit down, though they now seem happy with the Worcester counting methods, as the wild fluctuations have ended.

And no, you can't get advance tickets, but as has been pointed out many times previously, you can't get Network Card tickets from Swindon, Chippenham and a number of other places on the FGW network rather closer to London than Worcester, so to make out that you are suffering some kind of unique discrimination is over the top.

That distance argument applies just as much to demanding a ^5 weekend first upgrade - it's a 130-mile run. Are you really saying that on top of a standard fare bought on a Network Card that FGW are trying to scalp you by asking for ^15? I'd say that was pretty good value for money set against the usual first class fares - plus you would recoup a chunk of it in free drinks and snacks.

I think a lot of the griping is on the ay FGW treat the cotswolds - they WOS/HFD as an extension of oxford not as a long distance service

Forget Bristol/Swindon - take any other 130 minute journey in FGW - would they get regular turbostution, 2+7 running etc etc

Is it better than a few years ago  ???

If the Cotswold was run like an InterCity route, with guaranteed HSTs etc. blah blah like ALL other FGW HSS, I would not have a grip.

I can understand why FGW don't offer Standard Advance fares as seats are often full beyond Oxford with walk up tickets (esp when a Turbo is running!).

But to charge ^15 on top of the Standard fare for Standard class level seating, no guarantee of refreshment, no free refreshments.

And as much as you deny it, long distance travel AND commuting have suffered! I know lot's of people who have abandoned the route - both commuters to Worcester from Pershore/Evehsam, and businessmen, who now drive - either the full way, or to Warwick Parkway. Hopefully both of these can be rectified partially by the re-doubling (but it'll take a few years, and a marketing campaign), but if anything but 125 mph InterCity stock keeps heading our way, people will keep deserting the line.

Sit in bloody standard class then! There is no obligation to take up the upgrade offer. If you consider it not worth the money, don't part with your cash. Simple.

Should still fit the racks surely, whatever train they put on?
;D

Paul 

When? Yes there are Turbos out there, but they are the ones in the timetable, as Industry Insider pointed out previously. I haven't come across one on a train it shouldn't be on for several months. No, the Turbos aren't in great shape and are booked on trains they shouldn't be operating, notably the 8.52 from Malvern, but when have you actually travelled on one recently, given that as far as I can gather you always use services that are going to be HSTs come hell or high water, ie the earlies from WOS, the Herefords or the 17.51?

And what's wrong with a 2+7 set? It's still an HST.


No-one in their right mind would pay to upgrade on a Turbo anyway and since you never seem to use FGW to reach London these days, why on earth are you banging on and on and on and on about this? Maybe you're going to start condemning Chiltern for not having first class at all and denying you the right to bang on about their upgrade policy.

And how on earth can you claim businessmen are leaving because of Turbos? Every peak train from Worcester except the stopper has been 125mph stock for several years. Same applies in the reverse direction, apart from the 17.51's past bouts of mainly Adelante-inflicted issues - reliability and punctuality is the key issue, as it is for everyone, usually followed by fares and value for money, and the December 2006 and 2007 timetable changes produced appalling performance for many weeks. I was pretty hacked off with the situation, to put it politely, and I don't doubt some people voted with their feet after that, but because of turbos... oh please. How did the poor delicate flowers from Worcester tolerate it for those 11 years when apart from the herefords it was Turbos all the way?


That might be because that's what it is and has been ever since 1993 - before then, the "long-distance service" consisted of two Hereford-London expresses in the morning, and two back in the evening, with an off-peak London-Malvern and back in the middle of the day. Most of the rest of the time since the 1970s it was change at Oxford.

Turbos in 1993 meant almost all trains became through to and from London and this pattern persisted into privatisation. It is only since late 2004, with FGW taking over from Thames and the arrival of Adelantes, that there was intercity stock at other times of the day than the HSTs on the Herefords.

It isn't a pure long-distance service and it never has been, ever since the line opened in 1853 - because, just to upset you all again, Hereford and Worcester aren't big enough to support the kind of services the likes of Swindon, Bristol, Cardiff, the West Midlands, Yorkshire, Manchester et al get. It's always been a compromise between the different needs of different communities on the route and compromises mean you don't get what you want all the time.

No

When I started this in 2004, I could get to London in around 2 hours.  Ok, out of five days, three were on time, 1 was late, one was very late.  Now, its nearly 2.5 hours with time built in to naval gaze.  The fact it made it on time 60% of the time proved it COULD be done.

THAT is probably why people have deserted the north western end of the route - it just takes too godamn long.  I suspect its that more than the turbos.

I havent travelled on a turbo because I specifically go out of my way to avoid them.  e.g. even if I dont have to be in the office until the afternoon, ill still most likely get the 0735 to avoid being stuck on a bloody turbo!

I know if I were in London - I would not use FGW anymore - I'd even suffer LM from kiddie (and you know my views on them).  The fact im currently in the thames valley means the timing is about the same but going via euston has too many changes and too much risk of error!   

To be honest, The best situation would be - Genuine peak expresses only going through followed by connections at oxford - oh sorry, thats what we had back in 2004!  then - the expresses WOULD be busy from HFD/WOS and it would be worth running them.  At the moment, there are too many trains that run just too slowly

I think we are getting mixed up between weekday peaks - which are HSTs, and less Turbos turn up on those now - and the Weekend (esp the morning service) where Turbos are common.

We all have the gripe about the first off peak train being a Turbo, etc.

Who in their right mind is going to upgrade on the Cotswold, where a Turbo could be subbed? That's my complaint about the weekend first price.

Not sure what you're on about here, so I'll assume you're being sarcastic... ;)

Fallen Angel is right about the peak service requirements. There is huge potential in the Hereford, Malvern, Worcester areas - I expect FGW will start to unlock it with the re-doubling. The shuttles proposed will allow Hanborough to be dropped from most trains... ;D

What don't you get about the FC upgrade? You pay on the train. So if it is a turbo, you wouldn't pay, as it would be pointless. If it was a HST you would pay, simple. People won't pay ^15 to upgrade on a turbo, but you will know if you are on an HST, if you are, you will upgrade. Quite simple really.

oh dear.. I've done this several times before.. First class on a turbo is usually more comfortable than the rest of the train...

hhmm does that mean I'm not in my right mind?  ;D :)

So FGW are missing a trick then

If I were unlucky enough to be on a turbo *I* probably would - I need a ****** table!

However, exclude isiots like me.......

there are 32 seats on a turbo in FC on a 166 - which is NORMALLY what they put on

Say there are two fallen angels - that leaves 30 - so they get 2 * 15 = 30

Put it at 5 for an upgrade and I bet you'd get another 30 suckers to pay up - 30 * 5 = 150

TBH - I dont know other than the cotswolds where FC is regared as FC on a turbo anyway - so many are DOO that the FC compartment is a free for all!

Isn't there tables in standard class on a Class 166 though? So you might not have to upgrade to first class. I don't think lowering the price is viable really as it would be unfair to lower the HST price to ^5 and if you had to different fares based on the type of train it would both confuse and annoy people.

The Reading-Redhill/Gatwick's are the only other obvious reasonably long-distance service where 1st Class is able to be monitored by a Senior Conductor.

There are a total of four tables in a 166, so yes, but not many!

Er - a small triangle thing that pretends to be a table!

I dont have a pic but they arent what most people think a table would be

Er - No, you're wrong. The 166's have four proper tables in standard class, located in the centre carriage - nothing pretend about them! The rest of the train is fitted out with the little triangular things which are designed to hold a drink, sandwich and crisps and not much else!

I stand corrected

I admit to having never been in the middle carriage!

Too right I was - as cerealbasher says, you can see if it's a Turbo, so you won't bother paying to upgrade, will you, so what's all this fuss in aid of?

And you keep going on about Turbo substitutions. When? If you mean the Sunday morning service towards London, that's been 166s for donkeys' years because of low passenger numbers and is shown as such on the timetable. On Saturdays, the first two trains from Malvern are operated by the HSTs which stable overnight at Worcester and Hereford and the 7.10 Hereford comes from Bristol, so no chance whatever of a Turbo on those, and the 8.43 from Malvern looked very much like an HST to me when I used it today.

And isn't it five tables in the 166 trailer? there's a pic here with four in sight http://anoraksia.ukgeeks.co.uk/p55689879.html (http://anoraksia.ukgeeks.co.uk/p55689879.html) and I'm pretty sure there's another one at the bottom right-hand corner as well. There are also shots of 166 first class and 166 and 165 interiors either side of this picture.

Looks quite pleasant. Send some 142s, see how you moaners in Worcester think of them  :)

Yes, that bit is nice, but most of the rest of standard class is 3+2, with seats for thin people without arms - not nice when the train is full. A four-car with 2+2 seats would be fine for most Cotswold off-peaks, which the 172s, if they ever happen, should be set up as.

But 172s are 100 mph trains, when all Oxford fasts/ Cotswolds should be 125 mph stock.

Then we can start cutting out the slack.

Bluntly, and at risk of making myself unpopular with some people, 125 mph stock for the Cotswold line is a waste given that it's only the PAD - DID stretch where there's any hope of grazing 125 briefly. The issue of passenger comfort is a separate one - yes, I'd much rather travel HFD - PAD on an HST because it's much more comfortable than a Turbo, not because it travels at 125 eather than 90.

A four-car, 100 mph unit with decent acceleration sounds eminently suited to the task of running off-peak services to me. For the remaining peak trans HSTs working "express" supplemented by Turbo-operated stopping Didcot - Moreton shuttles sound like an elegant solution to me. FGW could be onto a good thing here.

Until all Oxford fasts are run with reliable 125 mph stock, there is no chance of the journey time being lowered.

Besides, Oxford is a city, and should have InterCity style stock to the capital!

Cambridge doesn't have intercity stock to London, don't hear many people moaning. The journey time to London is a mere 1 hours. Hardly worthy of taking away HSTs that could be put to far better use rather than running half empty off peak.

It doesn't have to be HSTs. (although admittedly, FGW have nought else at the moment)

It was only the Adelante's that could really make gains on a Turbo on the Oxford to London stretch with stops at Reading and Slough. Almost all the gains of a 125mph train are lost with HST's due to their longer dwell times. There's no reason why a 100mph Class172 (or equivalent) could not be timed for around 50-55 minutes with the two station stops, making use of its more impressive acceleration than anything on the route at the moment.

With the linespeed towards Worcester at a maximum of 100mph after Didcot, the through timings from London and Worcester would be much quicker with a Class172 than anything a HST could reliably provide, so until IEP comes along perhaps Class172's (4-car with a door de-select feature for Hanborough and Honeybourne) would provide an answer to the lighter loaded off-peak and contra peak services?

Fair enough. I think FGW should be aiming for 50-55 min schedules for Oxford for after the Reading project.

You've persuaded me. 4 car 2+2 100 mph 172s are better for off peak Cotswold trains.

Whoa - we have a breakthrough!  :D And I'm sure we'd both also agree that retaining the Adelantes would have been even better.

casting out the 180's was stupid, given time the reliability can and will be improved

Yes, something like the 180s would be ideal (perhaps even better than 172s, to give more possibility of service recovery along the Didcot to London stretch) - depends on the acceleration.

When? FGW had them for eight years and never really got on top of the problems. And they've just gone straight back into use elsewhere without any attempt at re-engineering the things that keep going wrong.

The point about Cambridge is entirely valid - and I've made it myself before. FGW use HSTs because they have nothing else with the capacity that's needed, not because there aren't types of trains out there that would be better suited to the route, though they would need electric wires - and would be able to manage a reliable 45-minute timing to boot thanks to EMU acceleration. The growth in demand on Oxford-Reading-London trains was why the SRA came up with the idea of the high-density seating HST in the first place.

And while the off-peak Cotswold HST services tend to be quiet beyond Oxford, they are earning their keep between there and London. The numbers boarding the 8.43 from Malvern at Oxford at 10.25 yesterday would have filled pretty much every available seat in standard - it looked like a weekday morning peak crowd - so whatever new DMUs materialise will need good autocouplers to split and join quickly at Oxford.

Yes, if we end up with 4 car DMUs, it would be better for 12/8 cars to go London to Oxford, and then 4 cars onto Great Malvern - with as many platform extensions as possible.

If it were not for Chiltern Evergreen 3, I would suggest that the back portion of the train went to Bicester...

How about Banbury, to give Cherwell Valley passengers back their fast trains? Then the Oxford slows can terminate at Oxford, and the mental damage inflicted on Turbo passengers can be reduced.... :P

the stupid thing about most new modern dmus/emus is that there is no coridor at the front which means in order to extend them you have to run doubles and which means an extra guard/tm if only 1 guard is onboard on of these there is potential loss of revenue.... i realise on high speed trains this coridoor is not practical i think this just proves there is a need to standardise rollingstock, after all look at the hst's i know its not the best choice due to acceleration but if overcrowding became that much of an issue there are spare mk3's and mk 2's which they can add no problem, you cant do that with a voyager...

172s have a connexion, so no problem.

think it depends on the variant (like the 150's) but as you can see on your own display pic,some do not

anyway i spent some time doing you a model of the rolling stock that you could get, im sure you will be gratefull as some places dont get any trains...  :)

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/relex109/3657421678/?ref=mf)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2462/3657421678_bfc5146917.jpg?v=0)

Because there's no demand/point. Oxford and Banbury are already linked by two XC fasts an hour, Kings Sutton is served by Chiltern anyway so that's how people there go to London, people from Heyford drive to Bicester if they are going to London, Tackley is tiny and the Stratford service has gone to Chiltern.

And no-one is going to pay for platform extensions. SDO is a proven system here and further afield, eg Southern have stations with all sorts of platform lengths out in the rural areas. Their electric sets have computer-controlled systems which hold the relevant details for each stations, while the 171s have a crew-controlled door selection system.

which is why units with corridor connections are important

But not if you're only running a four-car set on the part of the route where you're using the SDO, which would be the case in the Cotswolds.

I doubt that if the new DMUs ever do happen, FGW would want a ragtag fleet that had versions without corridor connections for Portsmouth-Cardiff and a batch with them fitted for the Thames Valley.

I've always suspected that if they had actually had the money to a proper job with the 166s, instead of a lash-up, bargain basement three-car train, BR would probably have built something like the four-car 171s that Southern has for the Uckfield line, which would be just the job for the Cotswolds, the Newbury route and Reading-Gatwick. It might even have had a/c that worked...

The Chiltern and LO 172s (as in my avatar) have no connexions - they are 75 mph trains.

The LM ones (and I presume FGW's ones if they have any sense) do - they are 100 mph trains. (which ironically are less streamlined)

At many places where SDO is currently used, I'm sure the platforms could be extended to cover 4 23 metre coaches.

And as for the Cherwell Valley line - it was mearly a gesture of good will the local stations, which had their London service lengenthed by an hour when Chiltern won the Stratford trains. PS: Chiltern don't stop at Kings Sutton much - esp on the faster trains.

Kings Sutton has a pretty decent service given its size. Every two hours off-peak to and from London with journey times of around an hour and twenty minutes, and the local FGW services to back that up. It could do with a better commuter service towards London as the prime service actually involves going to Banbury to come back the other way (still only 1h 22m though) and there's an earlier through Clubman train at 06:29 arriving 07:50.

Coming home the service is excellent with direct trains at 17:03, 18:03 and 19:03 all taking around an hour and ten minutes. They ARE fast trains Btline - non-stop to Kings Sutton, no, but fast trains nonetheless. The first two are Clubman's.

There's no way a FGW service to/from Paddington would ever be able to match those timings, and there's just not the market for any more trains from Kings Sutton anyway. Also, it would be pretty pointless sending one of the peak HST's all that way with hardly anybody on board. Passengers from Tackley and Heyford (that don't drive to Bicester) don't travel on the through stopping trains all the way, they change at Oxford - so journeys haven't been extended by an hour at all, though the convenience of the old through Turbo trains is an unfortunate result of the removal of Stratford trains from Paddington and the widescale use of HST's on the route.

Up until the Adelantes went, it perhaps would have been worth running one of them through from Banbury in the morning and back in the evening - one Adelante used to form an early evening service from Paddington then stable at Oxford from about 8pm for nearly three hours before returning to London - that would have been an ideal candidate. However, yet again, such potential benefits from them have been lost.

Oh, and the Chiltern Clubman's are 100mph with no corridor connection - I'm sure you meant to say that.

No the Chiltern 172s are 75 mph, with no corridor connexion.

The Chiltern 168s are 100 mph, with no corridor connexion.

And I was talking about extending the 172 service not an HST. And I admit that I ignored down trains for Kings Sutton, just looking at the morning trains, which is not as good.

So you're talking about the new trains being delivered at the end of next year then? Sorry, I misread your post. Sensibly, anything intended to work local routes should be 75mph as the gearing works wonders for the acceleration. As they will be mostly confined to the Aylesbury route that will do fine. If in the future they need to be re-geared for a higher speed then they can be without massive expense.

New DMUs, whatever they are - and they could still be Spanish or Chinese - will be what the Government decides to buy, not necessarily what FGW, TPE or Northern would buy if they had a choice. If they decide corridor connections are an unnecessary luxury, they won't pay for them - and given that most sets are unlikely to run coupled anyway (Oxford-London being the only likely route this will happen on) don't bank on it.

On the Cotswold Line, excluding the halts, the only platforms that cannot already take at least four 23m coaches are Hanborough, Shipton (both directions) and Honeybourne (westbound only post-redoubling). On the assumption the trains will have SDO and sliding doors as standard, there's no point at all spending scarce finance on platform extensions - station stops will be swift and straightforward, like Turbos and 180s.

Perhaps refusing to extend platforms due to cost would mean that trains were inable to call at the small stations and all trains could run fast from London to Worcester. I imagine the trains would be packed with those businesspeople currently on Chiltern ;)

sdo doesn't work too well if two 4 car units are put together, if 5 of the coaches overhang the platform, thats ok i will use the connecting corridor, oh wait look like im getting off at the next stop, at least i wont get a penalty fair as there is only 1 guard and he cant get threw,

my lame sarcasm and poor spelling not withstanding, do i maybe have a point?

No, because the new stock will have SDO. (perhaps it is a requirement now)

But as I said earlier, the Cotswold Line is unlikely to see coupled sets in use - the issue is providing a sensible-sized train, of decent comfort, for the route's off-peak services where an HST is carting many empty seats around. It's pretty clear from the mix of three and four-car sets that are meant to be coming to the Thames Valley that you would be splitting and joining at Oxford to maximise seating between there and Paddington - as has been done with Turbos for many years under BR, Thames and FGW. In which circumstances, you don't really need a corridor connection.