Great Western Coffee Shop

Mother's just been on the phone.........she has (or rather had) a dodderies rail card.   She rarely goes by train but it was worth it for the 2-3 times she came to see me.   To cut a long story short, she had to go to manchester and decided to use the train.    Bought the ticket from the TVM with rail card.  ticket inspector noticed it had expired a week ago!  confiscated the ticket, the rail card and excessed  her - which is fine thems the rules.

Prompted me to check mine for validity and thank god I did - it expires in a week or so.  As I never have any need to look at it (rarely checked) I wouldnt have noticed!  however I did wonder.....

Had I forgotten to renew and the same thing had happened, was there anyway not to have the ticket confiscated?  Regardless of whether it is valid for travel, it is still a valid business expense for me so can go through the company books.  Actual receipts are no good when effectively self employed - hector always wants to see the ticket or for you to provide evidence of point A or B to ensure you're not going on jollies to the seeside.    I get around this by always keeping the return portion (suitably gripped/ripped on the black strip).

But if it were confiscated as a not valid ticket, how would one provide it for evidence to hector.

Was searching for an answer to this on here that I sparked my other query - yes i'm bored!

same happens if you finish at a station with barriers

No it doesnt - you speak to the gate staff who usually verify it cant be used again cos its grippped or torn and give it back to you!

They did the right thing confiscating tickets, well would have done had the railcard been out of date as the person would have no business with it any more being an invalid ticket. I assume it also provides evidence that the person confiscating it was right, so you just have to hope the TOC still have the ticket.

It's probably been sent into their fraud department, if the TOC has one. May be worth contacting them.

But by all rights, a ticket remains the property of the railway so well within rights to keep it.

Well, it does. Unless you make the effort to speak to the gateline staff! If you just put it into an automatic barrier and the barrier recognises it's validity has now ceased then it stays in the machine. I think that was relex109's point?

Getting back to the original question, here's NRCoC condition 20 (with my emphasis added)


So, whilst in this situation it was perfectly correct for the staff to withdraw the ticket for investigation, they were obliged to provide a receipt which it sounds like they failed to do.

As far as retaining tickets at barriered stations goes, I have never been refused (although there has occsionally been a brief discussion following which the barrier staff have backed down); I have always been allowed to retain my ticket (suitably cancelled if this did not happen on my journey).

I suspect you'd probably be OK with a receipt issued from a STAR machine (booking office window) for the taxman, as these are very detailed and record all the details of your journey, ticket type and even serial number. However, the Scheidt&Bachmann TVMs and Avantix receipts are much less detailed, generally just showing something like "Travel" and the value.

end of the day the ticket always belongs to network rail and is not a recipt it must be handed over when ever asked, a sepperate recipt may be obtained from station staff self serve machine or when booked online this recipt IS acceptable for tax return

Yes it IS - but having just had an expenses investigation for 04/05 I can assure you - unless the receipt clearly says station A and station B - hector WILL ask you what each ticket was for - especially when your train expenses run to around 15K a year!  I even had to justify my season ticket to Paddington when I was working in London and virtually had to prove I wasnt using it for jollies at the weekend.

The receipts are not accepted by the accounts department of my company because the jounrey taken is not shown.

How about ATOC improves the information printed on receipts - no cost to the industry but confiscation of tickets would be less of an issue and barrier staff would need to spend less time dealing with passengers wanting to keep their ticket.

It was my MOTHER who was done for the out of date dodderies card!

I then checked my Y-P card and realised that because I hadnt looked at it for so long (its never checked) that I was within a couple of weeks of committing the same offence - the only good thing to come out of it - I will renew this weekend! 

So I was then postulating that whilst I would have to cop to the fine, how I could use my ticket to put through the company books as even though not valid for travel, its still tax deductible, if, as in the case of my mother, the guard confiscated the original ticket!

When a ticket is withdrawn for further investigation then a "zero fare" ticket is usually issued, as for the expenses debate, at the end of the day once the ticket is used it can be withdrawn as it does remain property of the railway, you need to get a receipt! the star receipt's are very detailed!

Do you have to ask specifically for a STAR receipt? Cos I've never been given a detailed receipt even when asking unless I book online

STAR is the ticket issuing facility. FGW use but only at stations that have always been FGW's, not ex-Wessex staions. If STAR isn't used you won't be able to get the detailed receipt.

FGW are swithing entirely to STAR in September, Tribute receipt's have ticket details on them I believe??

Well, I have never been given a detailed receipt - ever - i stopped asking for one about three years ago when all it proved was "a train somewhere" and the amount!  This was both station and on train!

Has tribute been brought in since?

Tribute is the ex-Wessex system and has been around for a while. Hereford is ATW station and they use STAR so you should be fine from there.

Hereford is the exception not the rule

Most commonly it is PAddington/Reading/Slough/On the train - that I buy tickets!

If I go through hereford its on the way home (except for today when I got the 1615 fro ludlow!)

Padd, reading and Slough should all have STAR

Exeter St Davids, Taunton, Bath Spa and Bristol T M have STAR AFAIK

However the TVM's won't issue a detailed receipt, but the Ticket Office will :)

Thanks - worth knowing. 

The ticket remains the property of the Train Operating Company that issued the ticket, they are selling you a journey and not a piece of paper the ticket is a voucher proving you have paid for the journey undertaken.  It is in their gift however to allow you to retain said voucher at the end of the journey

So in the fractured post-privatisation network, by what mechanism is an employee or ticket barrier belonging to one TOC able to claim ownership of a ticket issued by a different TOC?

I actually thought tickets were owned by ATOC, rather than an individual TOC.

It belongs to ATOC i believe, of which every TOC is a member.

Going back to the original post, this is section 3/1/1.2 from the ATOC Ticket Examiners Handbook and National Routing Guide:
1.2
If the customer shows an out of date Railcard:
Charge the customer the undiscounted adult fare for the journey as if they had no ticket.

However my personal stance is to withdraw the out of date railcard and depending on my particular mood that day either charge the difference between the discounted and non discounted fare, or to simply allow the passenger to complete their journey. Like most of my dealings with the public, the price I charge is influenced by the passenger's attitute, it pays to be nice to us!

;) :D

I also find it varies depending how long ago the railcard expired   :)

IIRC you get reminders to renew the railcard anyway... Well I did in my DSB and my was then Y-P Railcard :)