Great Western Coffee Shop

When the H&C line and the Circle lines are merged, does anybody know what will happen to the identification of the Paddington LU stations.

No station will have a dedicated line. How confusing for unfamiliar passengers! ???

And is the H&C line service remaining (i.e. in addition to the Circle line), or are they extending Met line trains on H&C paths?

And any chance of District line trains being extended to Kings Cross/ Moorgate's empty platforms?

_{NB: I have posted this in Across the West, as it could have implications for all. Hope you don't mind! :)}

My understanding is that if you join a "clockwise" train at the old Circle line station it will only take you to Edgware Rd where you will have to change.  To get a through train from Padd to,say, Kings Cross you will have to go to the current Hammersmith line platform. Strikes me the is going to be a lot of irritation at Edgware Rd unless it will always be possible to have a cross paltform change of train in each direction ( which I think would mean the arriving trains from Padd then pulling out of Edgware Rd as ECS and coming back in to the next platform).

I understand the new Circle Line fully - Hammersmith to Edgware Road via a clockwise loop of the circle.

What I don't understand fully is the future of the H&C line, and the "identification" of Paddington's LU stations. Currently, one is a dedicated H&C station, but will soon be Circle Line as well.

I am also wondering whether LU are going to allow direct West to North Circle Line travel by extension of District line trains. (perhaps to the old Thameslink platforms at Moorgate)

The H&C will carry on as now, but eventually nearly all trains will go to Barking, as the option to terminate short at Whitechapel is being lost because of Crossrail, which widens the platforms there as a normal 2 track station.  The mooted idea of swapping the Met and H&C eastern terminii is no longer happening, so Met to Aldgate stays the same.

Apparently there is no capacity to extend District trains along the north side of the circle, effectively the reason they have to stop at Edgware Rd now is because there are more trains joining the route from Baker St onwards, ie the Met to Aldgate.

The map will be basically the same as now, but with an additional yellow line down to Hammersmith through Paddington, and probably a terminating yellow line at Edgware Rd from the western Circle. This seems to be a fairly good unofficial! possibility, if you ignore the Chelsea - Hackney and split Northern Line of course:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2536093115_d7c9a8999b_b.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2536093115_d7c9a8999b_b.jpg)
Paul

It would seem that the only way to work out the best station to go to would be to study the diagram, to have something like@

<- Circle, District, Bakerloo
Circle, Hammersmith & City ->

would be confusing but so would something like

<- Circle (via High St Kensington), District, Bakerloo
Circle (via Kings Cross St Pancras & Wood Lane), Hammersmith & City

and it doesn't tell the whole truth as you can get to anywhere by changing at Edgware Road

I think maybe the best would be to bring back Paddington (Praed St) and Paddington (Bishops Road) but then the suburban station doesn't have an entrance to Bishops Road any more. 
Paddington (Suburban) maybe?

The current H&C station needs to be re-named, or merged with the other station.

Ditto for the Bakerloo's "Edware Road".

How do you propose merging the stations then?

Call them the same but different plat numbers - like I get the feeling many of the other tube stations are - some of them have such a long walk they have to be anouther station in rea;ity

But they are NOT connected in anyway. To get from one to the other you have to leave and walk over Network Rail property.

RailCornwall, take a look at old LU maps (1990s, for example).

They showed a single "Paddington" underground station complex with the interchange "dot" linking all the LU lines.

Of course, since TFL started putting a wheelchair symbol on all step free stations, it has become difficult to see which are interchanges and which are not!

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And does yiour AVERAGE punter notice the difference?

If I wasnt a pseudo train weirdo - only because I spend so much time on them - and I arrive at Paddington - how would I work out Bakerloo at PAd was a totally different station than H&C at PAD -  translate that to any other station

How do I know what is network rail property and what isnt

I agree with that but it showed something that was and still is wrong. You have to physically exit one and enter the other if changing to or from the H&C line at present. They are two distinct units, mapping them as one causes more confusion to the unfamiliar. Maybe Paddington North and Paddington South might be appropriate if renaming is required.

Trying to remove myself from familiarly - if I were going bakerloo to H&C and I was not familiar with the tube (in which case this is a moot topic) - having to go up to a station and down again would not bother me - have done the same in Germany many a time!  Call them Paddington and renumber the platforms

Renumber the platforms to what?

C&D lines are platforms 1 and 2
B are platforms 3 & 4
H&C are 15 & 16 as part of the mainline numbering

so what do you suggest?

Paddington (1-4) and Paddington (15 & 16)

Though I expect nothing will happen as most tourists will head straight into the Lawn entrance as they do now, and will have to change at Edgware Road

I'm not sure I fully understand the reasoning behind these changes, I believe it's to improve the reliabilty of the Circle by allowing train sets to be easily swapped at Hammersmith without a special working ECS from Edgware Road.

In my mind the raison detra of the Circle line are  the corners otherwise there are H&C and Met service along the North side and District along the South.

Notinghillgate to Baker Street (Met Level)
High Street Kensington to South Kensington
Tower Hill to Liverpool Street

Which from oberservation seem to be the heaviest used parts of the route.

To take out Nottinghillgate to Baker Street seems very odd, especialy as the train will now reverse at Edgware Road to go to Hammersmith. Is this in competiton with the Wimbledon trains which are also reversing at Edgware Road?

Also how is the Inner rail (counterclockwise) service provided?  Do the H&C from Barking go Circle at Edgware Road do a turn round the circle and then go Hammersmith or still only to Hammersmith. The H&C service also provides a very important link from Whitechapel to Liverpool Street across the third side of the triangle as of course does the District Line service from Edgware Road to Earls Court/Wimbledon.

What ever way it works it seems to make Edgware Road very busy and congested and from what I remember of regular travel with the curent service pattern one often waited for a platform outside, travelling in either direction.

As an aside many years ago the District Line service to Edgware Road was extended to Faringdon I believe on the Friday before Bank Holidays can any one confirm?

Also the reason why the Edgware Road Wimbledon is C stock is that D stock is too big for top of the Circle.

H&C will run from Hammersmith to Barking and return as normal.
Circle runs from Hammersmith through Edgware Rd, continues outer rail to Edware Road, reverse, inner rail back round through Edgware Rd and back to Hammersmith.

The stretch from Hammersmith to Edgware Rd will be shown as two lines, pink and yellow.

I'd emphasise that contrary to some very misleading newspaper reports (especially in the Standard) when it was first confirmed by TfL - they definitely aren't going to  rename either line. TfL's announcement is here:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/11323.aspx (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/11323.aspx)

Paul

So there will be no High Street Kensington to Baker Street service without changing at Edgware Road?

As I said I thought the whole purpose of the Circle line was the corners.

It will have to made very clear on all stations on both lines that the service will terminate at Edgware Road and you have to change to get further round the Circle..

I wonder how many tourists will get on a circle and either find themselves in Hammersmith or back where they started after turning round at Edgware Raod. Lots of excess fares as Hammersmith is Zone 2. Enough used to get to Whitechapel wanting Tower Hill.

If the Districts are still terminating at Edgware Road I still think it will cause trouble.

I think it's great. When changing to another London terminal (Euston, Kings Cross/St Pancras or Liverpool Street), I will no longer have to take a chance at which station to pick.

Overall, the proposals are excellent, with a doubling of frequency to Hammersmith and no more train clashes at Edware Road on the flat junction.

Punctuality and journey times will improve for all sub-surface line users.

The only disadvantage is the loss of West to North Circle journeys.

Hang on; Pread Street junction is on the Padd side of Edgware Road So you have Circle and District trains to Edgeware Road clashing with more trains to Hammersmith. Not sure that's a good idea.

Plus more trains turning round at Edgware Road.

I would also have thought that the loss of West to North link will be inconvinient for many people.

 

In fact there are 12 tph westbound (6 tph H&C & 6 tph Circle) conflicting with 12 tph terminating from the District and western Circle. Most discussions have focussed on the significant increase in conflicting moves...

Paul

Most unlike the LES to be misleading when reporting on the railways! I remain open minded about these changes, though it will put even more pressure on the barriers at Paddington on the overbridge leading along to platform 8. This already struggles badly through the peak hours, especially when a LUL and LTV train arrive at the same time. People queueing for tickets near the barriers also leads to congestion - those machines really need to be moved, or at the very least queuing barriers put in place.

Anyone get caught up in the experiment of the new regime at the weekend?

What was this? Did they do anew Circle tryout over teh weekend?

I'm not sure exactly what was going on, Tuesday (yesterday) afternoon but I cause a train on the Hammersmith and City platform that was announced (prior to Edgware Road as being Circle line..  Came to a halt just before Edgware Road and the operator announced that we were held because there were already trains at both Easbound platforms ... we pulling to the middle just as a "Whitechapel" was leaving from the outer platform.   And our train continued to be announced as Circle all the way to King's Cross, where I got off and transferred onto National Express East Coast for what turned out to be the final day of their franchise.   Another story ...

TfL were running the new T Cup service at the weekend to test the timeable, however they weren't advertising the fact.  Some FGW stations had signs saying for the northern half of the Circle to use the H&C station at Paddington.

www.diamondgeezer.blogspot.com  charted the experiment

Where is the logic in this decision??

Last time I arrived at Paddington, it was straight onto the Circle Line and round to Tower Bridge which was a seemingly easy journey to take. (Outer Loop)

They were also turning some H&C back at Edgware Rd at around 9am. I speculated whether they run District Line services east of Edgware Rd during Wimbledon. It would make a lot of sense.

You will still be able to once the teacup starts, but Circle Line trains will then depart from the H&C platforms, which are closer for arriving passengers. Whether the stairs onto the H&C platforms will cope is another matter.

I am sure you know the LUL station is named Tower Hill not Tower Bridge.

The part-closure of the Piccadilly Line for engineering work meant large numbers of foreign travellers with luggage heading to the airport were turning up at Paddington which was adding to the confusion!

1) A increase in reliability across ALL sub surface lines.

2) A DOUBLING of frequency to Hammersmith - including to the new Shepherds Bush shopping centre.

You'll still be able to do that above journey - the only difference is that it'll be more reliable (and you'll wait less time for a train unless going beyond Algate).

Only disadvantage is the loss of Western side to Northern side stations. Boo hoo - either go the long way round or take the Piccadilly line!

Who is going to go wrong way High Street to Baker Street? They'll all have to change?

What I mean, is if the platform change at Edgware Road is too much for you, get to your destination going anticlockwise. Or by taking a alternative line.

Or just keep things like they are.  :P

However, I suspect there is a flat junction that restricts the number of trains that can run.

Paddington, Victoria, Edgware Road, and Hyde Park Corner tube stations were or still are closed to a certain extent today due to flooding, according to this article - http://www.thelondonpaper.com/thelondonpaper/news/london/commuter-chaos-as-london-underground-hit-by-flooding

Mainline services from Victoria were also closed.

BBC article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8139435.stm

You could 8) , but the reasons the sub surface lines are so unreliable are:

(a) the flat junctions, as you say

(b) the fact that the Circle line has no recovery time. The new plans will provide 2 places for Circle trains to recover, without affecting journey times or frequencies.

The new T-Cup service does not eliminate the flat junctions, just (supposedly) the recovery time, as train paths still cross at Praed Street junction.  The experiments have shown that Edgware Road can get quite crowded even in relatively quiet times when there's a gap in the service.

I do wonder how Edware Road will cope with the number of trains. I suspect that District line services will be axed. >:(

The T-Cup does not eliminate flat junctions, but removes one from the network, and since the trains will be running more on time, the others should be less of a problem.

There was a suggestion that some Wimbleware services would stop short at HSK, but that hasn't been the case on the trial weekends so far.

Please explain which flat junction is 'removed' - (I take it you mean no longer an issue, rather than physically removed?) - because I think the T Cup actually increases the conflicting moves over Praed St junction, west of Edgware Rd.

Paul

Terminating the Wimbleware services at HSK would considerably reduce the services from HSK, NHG and Bayswater to Padd.

Terminating and reversing the Outer Circle at Edgware also increases movements over Pread Street Junction plus eliminate through HSK etc. Baker Street  and Eastward services.

A lot of people seem to catch the Inner rail circle at Baker Street who are still on the train when I get out at Padd.

I don't have much knowledge of Praed Street Junction. But I assumed terminating trains from the West Circle would not interfere with H&C/Cirlce trains to/from Hammersmith.

Anyway - whether or not this is the case, the fact of the matter is that there is no opportunity of recovery on the Circle line as it is. Introducing more station dwells will reduce the frequency on all sub surface lines. The T-Cup is the only viable way of increasing reliability.

And there is the extra trains on the Hammersmith branch - also serving the new shopping centre.

Btline, I thought you were obsessed with removing slack yet are supporting adding of it?

This is of course likely to lead to slack running!  ???

Terminating outer circle and district trains have to cross the paths of Hammersmith bound trains as the through platforms will be the outer two faces at Edgware Road.  This provides cross platform interchange for westbound on circles, but a having to use the bridge for circle services eastbound.  Likewise arriving on the district involves using the bridge.  Of course, passengers from Hammersmith bound services could cross platform to the District to go to to Paddington and beyond, changing at HSK. 
Currently Edgware Road's passenger information, and size is woefully inadequate for what will be such a major interchange.

Am I? Quote a section where I support adding slack. ???

A key to a punctual railway is good turn around time. The current Circle line, by definaition, has no such time. The tea cup line will have two such places to recover.

Re Edgeware Road: I thought the bay platforms were South of the through platforms! ::) So it looks like quite a few conflcits here...

In fact there will be twice as many services heading off down to Hammersmith as now, (6 tph each H&C and extended Circle) and the westbound trains all have to cross the trains 6 tph each District and terminating Circle, coming from the western circle. I reckon they've actually doubled the conflicting moves over Praed St junction.

If only the original builders had four tracked west of Edgware Rd, allowing the terminators to use the southern pair of tracks, everything would be set up nicely for this new service.

Paul

I suppose it is the oldest stretch of underground railway in the world, so we can't ask for too much! ;D