Great Western Coffee Shop

Any ideas on this one ?

I wish to travel from Westbury to Paddington and back using Advance First Class tickets (excellent value !!). However, the fares and the times do not fit in with my requirements.
I look a little further .............. I can get the trains I require from/to Pewsey (stop after/before Westbury) for a bargain price of ^9.55 each way. So I then look up the possible cost of a ticket from Westbury to Pewsey - and find there are only Standard Class fares shown on the FGW website ?!
This morning, as I was passing, I called in at the ticket office at Warminster and asked about First Class tickets from Westbury to Pewsey. I explained my logic to the man in the office, he said that he had no First Class fares, other than a 7 day First Class ticket !

If I buy a Standard Class ticket, from Westbury to Pewsey, sit in First and offer to pay the difference on the train - what will the ticket inspector do ?

Just a quick thought on this necessary malarkey...

If you want to go from A to D and the apparant bargain route is A > B then B > D but a leg isn't available maybe an alternative could be A > C and B > D hence paying for the B > C part twice, it might still cost in better than paying A > D directly.

I did have a quick look at that sort of alternative. The cheapest First return from Hungerford is ^38.30, compared with ^19.10 from Pewsey, which really didn't make it worth pursuing any further.

I'd be careful. Ask the guard before you sit in First Class, and explain the full "ticket hole" problem.

If necessary just spend the first/final legs of your journey in standard. It can't be that long a time from Pewsey to Westbury.

That was exactly the point of my OP.

I am not trying to avoid paying for my journey, I am just trying to understand what the ticket inspector might attempt to charge me en route. As there appears to be be no First Class tickets available between the stations in question, I (and he ?) have difficulty in knowing what the excess fare might be. If he going to charge me ^10, I'll pay; if he wants ^50, I'll say "no thank you" and move back to Standard, if the train isn't at Pewsey by then !

Penalty Fare: The FGW website says:-
"How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?

To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.
If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity." 

I couldn't buy the "valid ticket............ for the class of travel you wish to use", it doesn't appear to exist, despite all the trains linking the two stations in question having oodles of First Class accommodation.
Instead, I paid good money to buy the only ticket available (Standard) which also proves where I boarded the train - much better than a Permit to Travel ?
So a penalty fare does not appear to apply.

I am back to the original query - what does the inspector do ?

When I said "be careful", I meant "don't just sit in First and wait".

You can be penalty fared for sitting in First with a standard ticket. Of course, you case is unusual, but an RPI might feel mean.

Agreed, but as I said I don't think a penalty fare applies in this case. I tried to buy the correct ticket, but couldn't, so I bought a Standard ticket, which has to be far better that a Permit to Travel ?  I am not trying to avoid payment, I am being completely open and honest - all I want to know is what is the monetary value of a First Class ticket between Westbury and Pewsey.

 
From FGW Website:

"UPGRADE TO FIRST CLASS - How much does it cost?

 Please be aware that buying a ticket on the train when you had the opportunity to buy beforehand may leave you liable to a Penalty Fare. 

Single Tickets

Simply pay the difference between the price of the single ticket you hold and the cost of the appropriate First Class Single for the journey you're making."

Back to original question - again !

I don't think anyone would even consider boarding a train from London to Glasgow if the ticket clerk at Euston couldn't sell you a ticket and couldn't offer any idea of what you might actually be charged on the train !

If I am feeling really bored I might go to Westbury station and ask for a definitive answer - in writing !

The TM will be at the back anyway so you should be ok I imagine. But yeh, ask Westbury! Presumably a First Class fare wouldn't be viable to cover the catering costs!!

Just a brief couple of routes if I may... ::)

Bath Spa - Chippenham - Journey time 10 Minutes - First Class Fare Available (^10.40 for a First Anytime Single)
Liskeard - Menheniot - Journey time 5 Minutes - First Class Fare Available (^3.90 for First Anytime Single)
Acton Main Line - London Paddington - Journey time 9 Minutes - First Class Fare Available (^4.60 for First Anytime Single)

I don't see the logic sometimes, You can buy a First Class ticket for a 5 Minute journey, yet not for a 16 Minute one...!! ???

I think in the old days of British Rail you used to be able to create a first class fare that wasn't in the fares manuals or APTIS machines by multiplying the Standard Class Open fare by a factor of 1.5 (or was it 2?) - can anyone remember and confirm that? I seem to remember it being used quite often on routes where Turbos had replaced the old second generation DMU's that didn't have 1st Class accommodation, but the fares manuals hadn't caught up yet. I expect that this is no longer the case.

I used to buy a First Class Ticket from Plymouth - Liskeard in 2004. Then they still used the APTIS ticket machines at Plymouth. When I asked for the ticket, they used to get a calculator out and do some sort of calculation and then issue the ticket ;D

Since the modern systems have been installed, I haven't heard of this happening :-[

Another route that springs to mind is:

Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Journey time 30 Minutes - First Class Fare not available!

Yet FC is available on the Wrexham & Shropshire services which are very good indeed ;D

If there is no First Class ticket available but the train is advertised as and has First Class accommodation the First Class fare is 150% of the cost of the standard class one, it is written in the fares manual somewhere.

That's what I thought, 150% - Though assuming it does still apply, it's just the sort of rare request that might catch out a less experienced booking clerk.

No you cant do that anymore.  The new fares system does not let you make up fares in this way.  If it is not in the database then you cannot sell it. 

My advice would be to sit in first class and then ask nicely for an up grade when the TM comes around.  When they find that there isnt one they will probably let you sit there anyway.  They will then feed it back to the powers that be and the next fares round you should find it in the system.

Used to have the same problem with Bath to Cardiff.

Of course, if you do insist on travelling First Class from Westbury to Pewsey, you can always do as the National Rail site suggests and get the 13:38 which arrives at 16:03, having taken 2 hours and 25 minutes to get to Pewsey (via Bath Spa and Reading).

A snip at ^147.00 (which even my basic maths suggests is slightly more than 150% of the standard class fare of ^6.40 that's shown, but that's inflation for you I suppose)

(http://www.terrascope.co.uk/images/WestburyPewsey.jpg)

That was the impression I got when I spoke the clerk in Warminster - if it didn't exist, then he couldn't sell it !


To be honest, that was the thought in the back of my mind. If the station couldn't sell me a ticket, I couldn't really see how the Ticket Inspector could. Would the "system" let him impose a Penalty Fare without issuing some sort of ticket with it ? There must be a paper trail with this, otherwise penalties could be issued, literally, for nothing - or disgruntled passengers would certainly claim that !
The very worst I could see happening, was being asked/told to move.

I will still ask at Westbury before I buy the tickets though!

The chances of being pfd are low anyway! The TM isn't even likely to check your ticket till after Pewsey as they need to be at the back of the train at Westbury incase the signal is on and SDO is required.

How about sending an email to FGW asking them to create the fare - it might be a simple oversight.
Quoting the shorter journeys mentioned earlier might help.

Paul

I am confused.

Is it that the fare exists (applying the 150% formula) but that the ticketing facicities used do no allow it to be issued or is it that the fare does not exist?

Has the 150% rule been repealed or has it just fallen out of use because the current ticketing machines can't handle it?
 

I rather get the impression that it's a problem with the technology.  If that particular fare is not programmed into the ticket machines (whether it should be or not), there is apparently no facility for a human operator to over-ride it, insert the appropriate amount, and sell such a ticket.  ::)

Have sent a link to this topic to a colleague in fares department, will let you know response when I get one.

Brilliant!  Thanks, Ollie!  ;) :D ;D

From my colleague:

"if there is no first class fare listed for a particular journey, then you issue a manual fare multiplying the standard class fare by 1.5. If he wants something in writing to show a member of staff in a booking office, advise him to contact customer services."

Have been away for a few days, just catching up !

Many thanks for that, Ollie.