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I was on the 6.12 train from Paddington to Maidenhead today. It's one of the local trains (sorry don't know the correct train type), with air conditioning, which as usual wasn't working.. It was pretty hot even when sitting very very still (I tried). Luckily the train was only half full and everyone had seats.. Will the air conditioning ever be sorted out? To be honest I'm not sure air conditioning is a good idea on trains such as these, where the carriage is totally open plan, so that when the doors are open at the station (so for long periods of time at Paddington) any effects of the air conditioning are lost to the outside anyway..

Those trains are 166s.

The good thing about 168s, 170s and 171s is that the doors close automatically after about 20s of station dwell. Keeps the heat in in winter, and the heat out in summer!

The later Turbo(star) designs feature an air-con system that actually works most of the time. Best chance of the air-con improving is when the 166's get their refresh, but you'll never have a system that works very well that has windows that customers can open. It just takes one to be opened and the air-con is useless (which leads to more being opened etc.) Class 166's have doors that should shut after 60 seconds of station dwell, but that doesn't always happen.

I have to say that I don't think that enough money will be thrown at the Turbo refresh to solve the problem.

My turbo this morning had over enthusiastic air con - froze to death for half an hour

Really? I've never seen that happen! ::)

Yep, really. As do the 165's. Though thinking about it, it might be 90 seconds. Though it's disabled on roughly a third of the doors it seems.

Had it happen at Paddington waiting for departure. If I remember correctly they seem to just close without any beeping can catch people out.

Is 166 201 any better than the rest for a/c as it has different type?

Can the interior separator doors decide to be closed or not - he number that randomly open and close

Yes, the doors just shut with no 'hassler' alarm - something I've always thought a little odd/dangerous. The air-con on 166201 has been discussed on here a couple of times, some people seem of the opinion it works better, though in my own experience it makes a hell of a noise for little or no benefit.

As for the interior doors, they can be locked open (or closed) - though lock fatigue makes this impossible to do on some of them. You can isolate the supply to them from each carriage separately, although in the case of 166's if you isolate the supply to the door leading to the next carriage, you also isolate the doors into the 1st Class section (and vice-versa). It can be very annoying if you have a set of internal doors that constantly open and close - my suggestion would be to ask the Conductor (or Driver on DOO) to see if they can get it locked in the open position.

if they do not have correctly working interior doors then the A/C will be poor it simply has to work too hard same goes for the exterior doors being open at stations,add passengers opening windows then it is definatly game over.they should address doors and A/C on refresh then modify locks on windows so they can only be opened by crew like on 158's

I've never known the 166 a/c's to deliver cooling since they were built.

I suspect that the 260kW(?) engine has enough to do without driving a big compressor. The hint I had from a TT manager that it was all too undersized (at DafT insistence) to work. The Adelante's had twice the power so could get really your teeth chattering.

Another reason for overhead wires.

OTC

Actually my freezing the mammaries off moment was a 165 (165 114 I believe) and I dont think they have air con come to think of it so - since none of the windows were open and the first class doors were shut - I suspect the windows were leaking

But it was ****ing freezing and the jet was coming from the vent above me - hence me thinking it was air con

the perkins engine can cope with driving the A/C as it is done via a hydraulic pump the same as a 158,the problem is the old system needs updating very much like they have done with the 158 fleet of which you will find nearly all of them are now working.another thing you will notice about the 158 is internal doors work and windows are closed.
so in my opinion address all these problems and the air con will work.

There are a couple of fundamental differences between 158s and 166s.

Firstly, the 158 was designed with a/c fitted from scratch - the 166 was an adaptation of a non-a/c train design, the 165, so the 166 system from the start had to be a bit of a lash-up job, not helped by the trains being built to a very tight budget as onthecushions hints, so it was more a case of what you could buy for the money allowed, not what was the ideal solution - ie what Chiltern has retro-fitted to its 165s.

And I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen a 158 running with the emergency ventilator windows unlocked as a matter of course, with anyone able to open them. They always need a member of the train crew to unlock them, quite different from 166s where as soon as the sun is out, someone opens those bloody hopper windows and lets in a force 10, wiping out any cooling from the a/c, even on those rare coaches where someone at Reading depot has managed to get the thing working effectively to some extent.

I'm certainly not banking on them doing anything fundamental to improve the a/c when the refresh programme happens, especially as they seem to be putting off the whole project until the last possible moment - with delivery only required by the franchise agreement by 2012. Last thing I heard on this just seemed to suggest a basic overhaul of the system and replacement of components as needed, so another 15 years of stuffy summer journeys loom.

I doubt the windows on 166s can be altered for "crew use only" since the units and driver-only; whereas on a 158 you have a conductor to unlock the windows when the a/c packs up, the windows on a 166 need to be operable by passengers most of whom don't carry a T-key with them! I can't see ASLEF being too impressed by drivers being asked to look after the passenger ventilation arrangements, so suspect the opening windows will stay.

Going back a few years the windows on 166s were very clearly marked as for opening in emergency only and the locking handles had little lead seals on them which would be broken were the window locks opened. Presumably though enough people simply opened them regardless which led to TT and subsequently FGW not bothering to replace the seals any more.

If the air con is working, why can't the guard make an announcement and walk through the train shutting the windows?

By the next stop, hopefully the train has cooled down, so no-one thinks to open the window... If they try, a fellow passenger can just shut it ad say "air con is working".

Principally because, south of Oxford, 166 units run without guards under "driver-only" rules. Because there are no guards, windows for emergency ventilation can be opened by passengers.

They're still marked as to be opened for emergency ventilation only (which is a bit OTT!), but they've never been CLEARLY marked as such. About 5 years ago the seals (which were plastic, not lead) were attached again, but they had all been broken within the month. The air-con is just not reliable enough and the passengers are just not patient/sensible enough!

...and tonight I was on one of the older style turbos (sorry I still don't know numbers) - the ones with all the windows that open and no attempt at pretending there will be air con.. There should be more of these until they get efficient air con.. :)

Don't worry, Jo - I still struggle with numbers - and down in my neck of the woods, that description would be a 143.  ::)

I can only distinguish between 165 and 166 -

165 - no tables in first class, internal doors have a personality complex, the windows dont stay shut hence the freezing tits off moment the other morning.

166 - tables in FC - almost acceptable - air con which will work if the windows are shut - windows dont flop open on the whole and internal doors dont have manic depression

It was easier to tell 166s and 165s apart under Thames Trains, as they were liveried differently.

But First have indiscriminately splashed dynamic lines on them, so they can say they have "refreshed" them.

Chiltern have improved their 165s. Ok, a longer franchise blah blah, but a company like First should be able to do an acceptable job.

There's no difference with the internal doors, they are exactly the same pieces of kit and are just as likely to fail on a 166 as they are on a 165. They also get repaired in the same non-urgent manner. The windows on 165's can indeed be annoying, with the clasp mechanism sometimes failing after many months of being slammed shut - the 166's fare better as they have actual bars that can lock them properly shut.

To add to the differences a passenger might notice, 166's are carpeted throughout, 165's (except parts of set 101) are only carpeted in 1st Class. The 166's also have tables and 2+2 seating in one third of the middle vehicle. The middle vehicle also has a dedicated cycle/luggage area, and as most people probably know the 166's have two 1st Class sections totalling 32 seats.

Hopefully when the refresh does take place, tables will be added to the 165's 1st Class section (along with power sockets) to bring them slightly more in line as to what a 1st Class ticket holder might expect!

..and will the refresh do anything to the air con on the 166s?.. because, to disagree with Mookiemoo, from my experience, I've never known the air con to work on the local trains (which I think I know now are the 166s)...

165 and 166's work the local trains on a fairly interchangeable basis. From what I've heard/read the system will be given a bit of a clean and worn out components replaced. Let's make no mistake though, the biggest reason the system does not work is the fact the windows are routinely opened by punters. I've witnessed it happen many times even when the coach is being cooled perfectly well. This means that any benefit is instantly lost, and leads to a working system to start to fail sooner as it is constantly working full pelt to try to cool down the surrounding outside world. With the money available I would be surprised if there was anything but a negligible improvement.

I tend to think it's the other way round, in that people only open the windows when the train is too hot.. Why would they want to open the window if the train was lovely and cool?  But it would be interesting to know if FGW have ever tested the temperature on one of these trains on a hot day, both empty and also full of hot people (with the windows closed obviously :))?

Granted, the majority don't, but it only takes one. Human beings work in wonderfully strange ways. Why would anyone want to rip up a newspaper into a thousand pieces and drop them all over the floor? Why would anybody want to eat an orange and drop all the pieces of peel on the seat next to them? I saw both examples of this happening yesterday.

MOST of the Thames Valley stoppers seem to be 165's - 166 seem to more common on the Oxford/Cotswolds line - often double trains are 165 one end and 166 the other

But this is just six weeks of observation

Easiest way I've found to tell the 166 apart from 165's is the windows. 166's only have opening windows on every other one, so if you see a full window, with no opening part, it's a 166.

If I see a 166 come in and I'm near the middle carriage, I will try and sit in the 2+2 section with tables (standard class). Although the seats are the same width, it just feels a little more spacious. Almost luxury. I have low standards...

Also, to add to my previous list - There's two toilets on a 166. Sadly this often means less urgency to repair one when it's faulty, so they quite often run around for weeks with only one functioning.

Just got home on 166 221 where the country-end driving car was actually rather chilly. I don't know if that's because the windows were shut and the a/c was doing something or just because it was a cool evening though  :D

Normally I'd say yes, but tonight I came home from work on that unit and the a/c was belching out very hot air in the leading car even though the windows all appeared to be closed, it was truly like a sauna in there!

On  side note - I had an experience on a 175 arriva train tonight - train was ok - toilet was a sauna!  SEriously - went in to spend a penny and I  sweated a pound!  Any ideas?

There's your answer! :P ;)

As a 175 is a close relation of the 180 ...its the same problem the exhaust stacks are channelled through the vestibule panels and as such provide a very nice central heating system to the toilets it also makes them smell