Great Western Coffee Shop

In the time Pacers have been around they've been put on some ridiculously long journeys from a Holyhead to Manchester service of 125 miles under First North Western to a Carlisle to Middlesbrough service of 109 miles every day under Northern Rail.  As well as a Sunday Only Southport to Chester via Stockport route of 94 miles and the recently suspended Blackpool to Chester via Stockport service of the same length.  Which makes Barrow-in-Furness to Carlisle via Sellafield and Lincoln to Adwick (Doncaster) via Sheffield routes of 86 and 72 miles respectively, not seem excessive.

Are there any FGW services that can be added to this list?  Alternatively, any Arriva Trains Wales or former BR routes are just as good.

The Last Cardiff - Exeter service ( 22.00 i think ) is booked as a pacer, but is not always the case.

Im not sure of the distance in milage though, but im guessing 100+

I've had the pleasure of travelling on a single 142 on a Gloucester - Milford Haven service (should have been a 158 - these were the days before ATW brought the 175s down south) and a 143 on a Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff train. Both of these were courtesy of ATW, although I'm pretty sure the Pacers were not the diagrammed units intended to operate those trains so they might not fit very well in this category!

114m 61ch

According to the full timetable mileages:  114.5

Snap !   ;D

61 chains is O.7625 of mile.

It may be a Pacer but that diagram is a 143 and you have to admit that 143's aren't TOO bad compared with 142's, I think Exmouth - Barnstaple is pretty bad, may not be long mileage wise but time wise it's best part of 2 hours, also, the 1900 Penzance - Exeter yesterday was a 142! 132 miles and 3 hours!

Shouldn't that be "61 chains are 0.7625 of a mile" ?   ;D ;D

Hmm.  Cue TerminalJunkie - but I'd go for 'is', as '0.7625 of a mile' is the singular comparator?  ;) :D ;D

Chris is correct.

Incidentally, if anyone does campaign successfully enough to have Pacers withdrawn from their line(s), we'll happily accept one or two down here at Melksham.

Quite frankly I'd be happy to stand in the back of a cattle truck if it meant we could have a peak time rail service of any description whatsoever....

'61 chains' describes a discrete unit of length and is therefore singular, so 61 chains is 0.7625 miles.

Thanks, TerminalJunkie - apparently, I was right, but for the wrong reason!  ::)

For those who need to get out more: http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/chains-to-miles.htm  ;)

Sometimes Pacers would appear on the "Great Malvern to various places on the south coast" route.  I don't know if they ran all they way though, I only saw them at Worcester.

I don't think Pacers have Line Clearence to go south of Westbury ( i.e Southampton, Portsmouth, Brighton & Weymouth )

I may be wrong though but I have never experienced/heard of 1 going to the South Coast!

143s are banned from going anywhere where there is 3rd rail, the furthest one can go is Salisbury or Dorchester. 153s are also banned from Portsmouth Harbour due to clearance problems with the steps on the outside of the train on the bends at Portsmouth Harbour.

I think the boundaries for 143s are just west of Salisbury and Yeovil but that may have changed.

It is meant to be where there is third rail due to the poor ride it isn't considered safe. You won't get one past Salisbury or on the Weymouth line as there is no where to turn them back afterwards. The 143s all had to obtain special clearance to move to Eastleigh for refurbishment.
I am not actually sure whether 143s are allowed to Salisbury, as it might just be the ex-Southern region they are banned from.

I travelled on a Great Malvern - Weymouth service the other week that puzzled me when it turned up at BPW as a 143. Not surprisingly, we switched onto a 150 at Temple Meads (where full marks go to the signallers and station staff for arranging a cross-platform change of trains for us with the replacement unit waiting ready in platform 1).

Why's that then?  142s are allowed to run on tracks which have a third rail for Merseyrail services, but they aren't allowed through the 3rd rail electrified Mersey tunnel, but it's the same with Sprinters.

IIRC that is not true.  The 142 and electric networks are kept separate on Merseyside.  At Kirby for example, their is only one platform face but their is buffer stop halfway along it to keep the two systems apart.

Northern Rail 142s from Chester have departed from platform 7, which has 3rd rail electrification.  I've caught a Northern 142x2 combination from the same platform that I've alighted a 507 from Liverpool.  I know 142s don't usually depart from platform 7 at Chester, but have done and also I know it's different at other stations e.g. Hunts Cross, Liverpool South Parkway.

I stand corrected.  If it is just in stations (where speeds are low and there is little "bouncing" about then perhaps it is not a problem?

Having sought "higher authority" (a teacher of English), I am advised that the correct word to be used in this case is indeed:-  "are".

The subjectS are "61 chains",  not anything else, so the use of "are" is grammatically correct.

Your explanation is akin to saying "eleven men is playing for Arsenal this weekend", because 11 men make up a discrete unit of people, ie: a football team.
The teacher quoted a similar (reverse), but also very common incorrect usage:  "England are losing one nil", this should be "England is losing one nil", since "England" does indeed refer to a single entity in this case - the team. To use "are", the response should be something like "the England players are losing one-nil".

PS: I might point out that your use of "mileS" is incorrect as there is actually less than one mile  - but I won't ! ;D ;D ;D

Teaches English where, exactly? Sidmouth College? :P


At this point I should make it clear that I didn't actually say that the use of "are" is incorrect.

However, as I read it the subject is '61 chains' and not just 'chains'; it is therefore correct to say that there are 80 chains (subject is 'chain') in one mile, and that 80 chains (subject is '80 chains') is one mile.


You can go quickly mad trying to work out the plurals of mass nouns, count nouns and collective nouns: why, for example, is it always 'fruit and vegetables'?

And did Elvis Costello get this wrong, or could he simply not make his mind up?


You could always try Googling "metonymic merging of grammatical number". If nothing else it will keep you out of my hair for the next few hours ;D


Pfft. http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-non2.htm (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-non2.htm)

moving to sidmouth college in year nine had the same effect on my education as lying my head on the third rail and then sending a pacer threw bouncing at full speed.

good old sidmouth college i worked out fine!!

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

I would agree with northwesterntrains that Pacers do run on the third rail network in the Liverpool Area...

Pacers are used on the Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Oxford Road workings... (I have relatives living up north ;) ) A Pacer heading to Manchester will normally call at Liverpool South Parkway, However the 3rd rail network joins between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool South Parkway. The 3rd rail line continues IIRC to just after Hunts Cross, where the Merseyrail Services from Southport terminate and operate a return working to Southport...!

However, Pacers have to use the lines between Liverpool South Parkway and Hunts Cross to join onto the Hough Green > Warrington Central > Manchester Oxford Road line.

TPE and EMT Services also use the same routes to Manchester and beyond

Your two statements above contradict each other, I'm afraid:  ;)

"I didn't actually say that the use of "are" is incorrect"

"it is therefore correct to say............80 chains (subject is '80 chains') is one mile"

"80 chains" is a plural, just as "eleven bananas" is a plural (except where I have just quoted it, because in that context it is not now referring to 80 times 1 chain, or, indeed 11 times one banana), but to a single grammatical statement.

No, she doesn't teach at Sidmouth College - wherever that might be ! 

In a similar vein:
Seen in SK Fruits in Trowbridge (or was it Sidmouth !) this very day:  Melons.  Cantaloupe Melon's. Mango''s. Grrrrr !   >:(

Enough ! It's goodnight from me and it's goodnight.....................    ;D ;D

Gotcha! (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/einstein3.gif) (http://www.millan.net)


I can top that: George Hotel, Braunton - "Gateaux's"!

Sidmouth, possibly?  ;)

I'm getting my coat, but before I go, Elvis Costello got it right the first time and wrong the second. The subject of the verb is Oliver's army. Since there is only one army in this equation, the correct construction would be "Oliver's army is here to stay", in the same way as (crowbarring this back somewhere near on-topic!)  "the pace* of 142s at the donkey sanctuary is here to stay" is good English.

*pace (along with herd and drove) is a collective noun for donkeys, honestly  ;D I just found it on t'internet... http://rinkworks.com/words/collective.shtml (http://rinkworks.com/words/collective.shtml)

Indeed - and a quick look at google maps in satellite view will prove this.  I was mid post as follows when I thought - check my facts.....

"i've used that route frequently recently and can I say this is a load of tosh - at south parkway and beyond - the misery rail lines are separate to the pacers/EMT/TPE line!

In fact they are opposite sides of the blinking station!  And having done Liverpool to Manchester picc a few times - and misery rail is to the right of the normal trains"

HOWEVER, if you track from south parkway east, you can see the misery rail approaching from below and for a very short distance it merges with the main tracks out of south parkway - there appears to be no way for the pacers to avoid it other than to go around the back of some sort of big train yeard - which I doubt they do/

I have to admit, that after all the talk of pacers on here - the first time I saw one pull into LSP I did have to get on and ride it to lime street just to see what all the fuss is about.  And let me assure you.................if I go out of my way to avoid LM 150s and turbos - you can bet your ass I wont set foot on a pacer for any meaningful journey. 

And journey's of several hours?  You'd have to knock me out a la Mr T before you'd get me doing that!

I've just looked at Google Maps myself... I'm sorry but I didn't explain it very well...! Explaining things in text has never been my strong point... ::)

Yes the Mersey Rail use different platforms at Liverpool South Parkway... But the lines merge south of Liverpool South Parkway... Trains for Warrington/Manchester then use the tracks to Hunts Cross... Where the 3rd rail network ends. (Southport - Hunts Cross Services) That same line continues onto Hough Green > Widnes > Warrington Central > Manchester Oxford Road (Some Stations Omitted).

Looking at the map, the Manchester Services have no other way of going onto the Warrington Line without using the 3rd rail network, However it is possible that they split slightly further down the line onto what looks like a Bay platform... I cannot remember enough though to confirm this. It's been a while since i've used that line...! ::)

The Quail map shows that there is a very small section of track where the third rail crosses the main line before going into the bay patform at Hunts Cross. Presumably for such a short section they have been able to ensure safe working. It's no more than 10 chains.

The strange thing is that that section also has AC electrification, though it's not obvious why, as it stops abruptly short of Huncts Cross station.

i cant remember where but there is a station where trains swap from 3rd rail to overhead halfway threw there journey, i will find the video

Relex109, I am not sure that it is at a station, But i know London Overground change over from 3rd Rail to Overhead somewhere imbetween Shepherds Bush and Willesden Junction.

Not sure if it happens at a station but Southern services from Gatwick Airport to Milton Keynes have to change from 3rd Rail to OHLE, think it is done mid route though.

Tgameslink change at Farringdon.

I think Southern change over at the same place as London Overground do, cereal_basher, just north of Shepherds Bush.

here we go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPg0sZPl28s

I've not been along that line recently but if you look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3J_5mxWcCQ the 158 running Liverpool Lime St to Norwich and the 350 running Birmingham to Liverpool Lime St don't use the same line as the 142 running Manchester Oxford Rd to Liverpool Lime St stopping service, but that may be because of extra stops made by the Manchester Oxford Rd service.

ok btt, decided to go on a trip today using the Devon rover ticket which can not be purchased on swt services... Apparently there machines are set up differently? Anyway I'm not sure if we are counting the 143's but first time on one today ... What a difference those seats make!!! The journey was actually enjoyable! However on the return trip from exmouth 142 :-( it was a double set and had two guards... The lady in our half seemed to really enjoy her job when I borded she was asleep in the cab must have woke up at topsham and proceeded to ' check' the tickets well glance and then just sat down looking at the ceeling for a good place to hang a noose.... That's it bone shaker and suicidal guard I'm getting. Off so I'm now on the 125 toilet express to paignton where next?

The Guard is lying saying they can't issue a Devon Day Ranger. Machines are exactly the same as FGW's. They obviously didn't know how to.

see this is what i thought, i was pretty sure every machine in the country has the same software.. or similar, he did add we only issue singles and returns and that if you want to buy it on the train then you need to do it on a fgw service.. was going to ask what happens at say whimple which isnt staffed or served by fgw but it was pretty clear i wasnt going to get any answers

A bloke on the top of a mountain in Scotland would be able to issue a Devon Day Ranger so long as he had an Avantix machine!

i know.. to be honest i heard him talking to passengers down the train and everyone he got into a convo with he brought up how rubbish he thought fgw was and blamed the high fares to paignton on them.... he said to me that the rover and ranger was a fgw ticket which im sure is not true, also got the vibe that he had been told from higher up not to sell anything apart from singles or returns.. (or couldnt be bothered to learn how to)

such a shame i have always been impressed with swt's guess you always get one bad egg

Generally it is because they do not know how to do it. They will just lie and tell you they can't, so they don't look bad. Then you will get the odd one who admits they don't know how, and then will let you teach them if you know.

maybee a letter/ email would sort this out let's see how swt deals with complaints