Great Western Coffee Shop

One of the things I've been pondering is what ex GW/Southerh lines should be reopened for passenger traffic.

Two obvious ones are mentioned frequently on this board are Portishead and Tavistock.

Another which comes up is Bourne - High Wycombe granted you'd have to knock down a few buildings but then they demolished half of Leicester when they built the GC and half of Leytonstone when they knocked down whole streets for the Motorway extension.

I've been thinking of some others and have come up with Savernake LL to Marlborough,

It's around 5 miles. Superficially it seems a better terminus for Kennet Valley services currently terminating at Bedwyn.

Any other way out lines others feel we should press for?

There was talk of this within the last year. See:

http://archive.gazetteandherald.co.uk/2008/8/28/386722.html

"It would be cheaper to buy every household in Marlbourough a landrover and give them free petrol" was a comment I heard about this one from a pro-rail transport professional ... I think it's unlikely in the foreseeable future.   But then we can't necessarily see all that far into the future at the moment  :D

Evesham - Redditch (to get Evesham to Birmingham commuters onto rail). Only problem is that they slapped a dual carriageway - A46 (T) - on the trackbed! >:(

Honeybourne to Stratford. To connect the "stub" of the Stratford line, and getting more pax on the Cotswold Line. In Stratford a road is blocking the trackbed, but the council are under obligation to re-route the road if the track is needed! ;D

In the South West:

*Oakhamton to Bude - traffic.

*Bodmin to Padstow - traffic.

*Barnstaple to Illfracombe (a line that was still open in 1969! :'( )

Pewsey is the "parkway" station for Malborough. Just extend the Bedwyn terminators to Westbury, and use 125 mph stock. ::)

Why?

Max linespeed on B&H is 110.

If only

How about West Dryton to Stains

Max speed of Turbos is 90.

And between Paddington and Reading it is 125.

So the journey time could be cut even with an extra stop at Maidenhead.

The acceleration curve above 100mph is never normally that great anyway, the front and rear of the train are out of bounds due to health and safety. Its more hassle that its worth and not economical. What proportion of Westbury - London would be spent over 100mph if its stops at Maidenhead. Very low.

3 Routes spring to mind...

1)

Service from Minehead to Taunton, to compete directly with the slow bus service... (1hr+) Enhance the service during the summer to allow for passenger flow to Minehead (Butlins). Also instate a Station at Norton Fitzwarren.

2)

Convert East Somerset Railway's Mendip Vale station into a Parkway station for Shepton Mallet. Thus reconnecting Shepton Mallet onto the rail network... Allowing for a greater transport that is provided by a some what limited and slow bus service... E.g. 161, 162 Wells - Frome Route. Also consider the idea of Request stops at Wanstrow and Witham Friary to provide, maybe a limited service, but a much improved 2 bus services a week at Wanstrow...! ::)

3)

Frome - Radstock, The majority of the track is still there on the route, infact the route still in use as far as Merehead Quarry. This would allow pax to be able to get from Radstock into Frome and connect onto other services throughout the south west. Again a Bus service is provided into Bath, but the journey time of this is 30+ minutes and the fare is daylight robbery... >:(

The only route I would say is practical is route 1, as the infrastructure is already there. I'm not sure what the track leasing costs would be though from Norton Fitzwarren to Taunton station...?! This might shelve the idea completely...! :'(

Personally I think Tavistock then onto Launceston using parts of the old GWR and Southern routes to create a long branch from Plymouth to Launceston, otherwise I think Axminster to Lyme regis.

WSR currently are indeed seeking planning permission for a platform at Norton Fitwarren. The application states that it could be used for incoming main line trains in future (ie, but not initially). This would reduce significantly the time taken for a unit to shuttle from Taunton to BL and back, and could open up the opportunity of Taunton terminators running on to Norton and back in marginal time.

They hope to have it built by August. The original application was withdrawn because the highways authorities objected to parking space there, which has now been removed from the revised application, which comes up for consideration before the month end. 

See the Parkman report, 2000  ;)

Also
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1736.0
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3115.0

Whilst we are on the subject of it, I think a Summer Saturdays only extension of the 1235 Paddington - Paignton and return to Kingswear would be viable. Perhaps cut the calls on the Berks and Hants as people travelling on the "Torbay Express" really shouldn't have to call there!

Yes, some Torbay HST (at least in the summer) should call at Reading, Taunton, Tiverton, Exeter, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Newton Abott, Torquay, Paignton, Goodrington, Brixham Road and Kingswear for Dartmouth. Listing destinations such as those, would get people off the A303/A30/M4/M5/A38/A380.

Wasn't there a Heritage Railway up north that got permission to run a service onto a mainline station from their railway...?!

I'll do some digging... I think I remember reading it in Rail Magazine... ;)

North York Moors. Their services are even shown in the National Timetable.

Runs along around 6m(?) of main line into Whitby.

Thats the one, Thanks John ;)

For anyone else who is interested, their website can be found here:

http://nymr.co.uk/

TOC code "NY" and on some live departure board systems ;)

Brixham Road  :D

It hasn't been called that for years! "Churston" is the name you require. Cancel the Tiverton stop and call them at Dawlish Warren. Large caravan park must have a large potential market and fewer minutes lost in stopping penalties. (70mph vice 100mph)!

Perhaps Radstock isn't way out so shouldn't be included in this thread! From the West of England Partnership Meeting, 22nd Jan 2009:

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/committee/2009/ot/ot031/0122_2.pdf

The Greater Bristol Metro bid will also  improve rail connectivity through the Bath area including links to Oldfield Park and Keynsham,  Freshford, Avoncliff and Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge, Westbury, Frome, Dilton Marsh and Warminster. Once the ball has been set rolling, the next step could be to work on improving rail services on the Frome-Westbury-Melksham-Chippenham- Swindon line, with a new station at Wootton Bassett, the White Horse Business Park and a spur to Radstock, the latter making use of the freight line.

And from the same document:

Melksham and Chippenham need better rail connections to Trowbridge, Westbury and Swindon. The provision of more trains is key to achieving this but is dependant on Wiltshire County Council.

I called Churston "Brixham Road" for a reason. More people will know Brixham than Churston. So by calling it Brixham Road, you might get a few more people out of their cars....

Ditto for Kingswear for Dartmouth.

But Churston is much nicer than Brixham  :)

Since 1868, apparently!  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churston_railway_station

Just how old are you, Btline??  :o  ;D

I personally think a Service from Minehead - Swindon calling all stations and via Frome and Melksham would be a good idea... You have the potential to pick up a good few different passenger markets.

In future if the capacity was there, route it onto London, Thus having a direct Minehead - London Service... Something that hasn't been done since the 1970's... Anyone who want's to get to London from Minehead has to either: Drive, Taxi or Bus into Taunton (Taxi being very expensive, and Bus not very flexible and takes forever!) Then pick up a HST service from there.

Even if the service started off Terminating on Platform 1 at Taunton, it would be a start because at least you could connect onto London Services from Taunton. Having said that though, some passengers simply cannot be bothered to change trains. But it would be a darn sight more flexible than the current transport system available!

On a slightly different note, it's a shame that these railways aren't put back into service. Pretty much everywhere you go on a First Group bus, takes more than an hour, is routed by some daft places, and some services e.g. every hour should run Limited Calling Points. Here are some examples i've had the privilage of travelling on throughout my life so far (Some of these routes can be covered by rail, but not intermediate calling points) Also some routes have third party operators, i'm focusing primerally on what First Group provides:

Taunton - Minehead (Via Watchet & Williton)
Taunton - Yeovil (Via Somerton, Illchester & Langport)
Taunton - Exeter (Via Wellington)
Taunton - Burnham on Sea (Via Bridgwater)
Taunton - Axminster
Wells - Frome (Via Shepton Mallet, Cranmore & Nunney)
Wells - Bath (Via Peasedown St John*, Radstock** & Midsomer Norton)
Wells - Bristol
Bath - Chippenham (Via Box & Corsham)
Bath - Warminster (Via Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge & Westbury)
Bath - Devizes (Via Chippenham)
Weston Super Mare - Bristol Via Congsbury & Cleeve, Backwell (Limited Stop service quicker (X1) avoids Long Ashton)

* = Journey to Peasedown approx 23 minutes (Routed via Odd Down)
** = Journey to Radstock 35 minutes (Relatively short distance, can be covered in 20 minutes by Car avoiding Peasedown St John)

My list might include:

Greenford o/h electrification, followed by High Wycombe for Crossrail.

Wokingham Aldershot S,  + Shalford Jn  Reigate dc electrification for FGW Gatwick airport service integrated with SWT Windsor lines.

Devizes Parkway (where the A342 crosses the B&H, would also make Westbury extension worthwhile)

Yeovil Jn South curves (to allow interchange)

Independent line from Minehead into Taunton North platform to allow W Somerset operation separate from NR. (Good idea also for Swanage Wareham and Totnes if affordable)

Crediton Okehampton shuttle separate from NR.

Barnstaple Bideford, operated independently.

Pedestrian link between Totnes stations.

Wadebridge Bodmin P, operated independently.

St Austell Newquay via Burngullow Jn

....just need a super-sized wish-bone next Christmas dinner....

OTC

Why? The stations aren't near either town centre, and there are nine buses an hour (and that's not counting the Barnstaple to Exeter, Plymouth and Hartland services) between the two.

Because a railhead counts for so much more than a bus stop.  Stopping within 50 yards of Woolies is less relevant than the chance of real business and leisure travel, capable of attracting the car user. Towns with a train generally grow.

Ever been to Skelmersdale?

OTC

Isn't stopping within 50 yards of Woollies now utterly irrelevant - 25 yards of Thresher's is surely the new standard  :D

More seriously, a railhead does count for so much more - especially when you're looking at connecting passengers off another train service.   Most people will cheerfully change off one train to another at Swindon or Chippenham to come to us, but tell them to walk onto the station forecourt and get a bus, and they'll be talking taxi, talking lifts, or asking why we're located at such a hard place to reach.

A gut feeling ... and a very general statement: an order of magnitude more people will choose the train over the bus, everything else being equal.  Yes - I have examples, such as 4 people on a bus and 35 on the parallel train ... and listen to how happy people are when you tell them that due to maintainance works, they have a rail replacement bus service instead

Good list - I also like Vacman's Launceston proposal and would add Lostwithiel-Fowey.

For "way out", I'd like to see the planned redevelopment of Plymouth airport at Derriford pay for a spur from there to the former Plym Valley line and on to Tavistock junction and North Road. It'd be great if commuters could travel from Tavistock, Gunnislake & Devonport to the airport & the Derriford area.

I like the thought of Lostwithiel-Fowey but probably wouldn't be that commercially viable, ever seen how quite the Looe branch is? I had forgot about St Austell-Newquay, but again, probably wouldn't be viable to have that line AND retain the route via Luxulyan.

Surely a Weymouth to Swindon service every two hours would be better than an HST waving around for hours taking forever to reach London. just run a 150 a few times Minehead - Taunton.

Linked with an hourly Portmouth to Cardiff service (axe trains to Brighton).

Axe LM Gloucester services, and run an hourly Great Malvern to Bristol FGW service using 17Xs (100 mph).

That only works if there's somewhere to leave the car.


I think you'll find that towns generally grow whether or not they have any train services.


Heavens, no. Been past it at speed on many occasions, though ;)

---

I should perhaps have made my initial point a bit clearer, though. Why would you want it to 'operate independently', when there's a more-than-adequate public transport service already in place? What would be the point, other than to suck up vast sums of public money in subsidy that could be better spent elsewhere?

In any case, why Skelmersdale? If you have an independently-operated Barnstaple-Bideford route, it's going to be more like Stourbridge...

http://018118055.blogspot.com/2005/10/great-train-journies-of-world.html (http://018118055.blogspot.com/2005/10/great-train-journies-of-world.html)

It's always seemed to me that the 1960s closures in North Somerset/Devon/Cornwall were ill-advised. It would have been better to retain Paddington-Taunton-Barnstaple-(?Ilfracombe/Bideford) and (Waterloo-)Exeter St Davids-Crediton-Okehampton-Lydford -Tavistock-Plymouth, plus branches from Lydford-Launceston and Bodmin Road-Wadebridge-Padstow.

TJ:

1. Bideford yard already has c40 spaces, Barnstaple 89.

   There's also kiss'n ride, taxis and bus interchange.

2. Skelmersdale is the largest(?) English Town not to be rail served. It's a new Town and was planned that way, even to the point of making existing peripheral stations inaccessible (check Rainford Jn and Upholland). It has a 6-lane spine motorway (the M58) that is mostly empty. It has thus been an unemployment blackspot since it was founded, with some of the cheapest (and best landscaped) new houses in the UK.

I'm not surprised you didn't stop.

3. Towns (and districts) do grow preferentially with rail for the simple reason of capacity - rail can carry more traffic than road (cars or buses) and is attractive to the higher, more productive socio-economic groups that work and spend. That's why London prospers and why developers wanted Crossrail and the Jubilee Line.

4. Independent operation is a hunch/prejudice of mine that smaller outfits work better than larger ones. The Heritage Railway (HR) Sector not only has fat controllers and Thomas, it also has 1435mm gauge track passed for 22t axle loads and 60 mph (no passengers at present). It uses contractors where sensible and works to the same safety rules as NR. Separated branch lines would let HR do its stuff albeit with modern or second user rolling stock and full time staff, much more cost-effectively.

I do however concede that Bideford would better be served by an extension of present Barnstaple services.

Regards,

OTC

Portishead, just for example, has been growing 'preferentially' for many years, with no train service whatsoever ...  ::) :o >:(

also goes the other way i agree with market towns the loss of railways hasnt altered growth but has increased conjestion, however holiday resorts like ilfracombe did suffer

Perchance ye towne of Portishead prospereth for that it lieth but a league from ye ancient and great city of Bristolle so that ye merchants thereof may repair thence to make sport with their ladys alsoe it lieth by ye fair haven of Portsbury where congregate ye great argosies of all ye world for to trade their wares. Ye iron ways lately come into our Earldom of Wessex do indede carrie goods but not persons in this handsome towne.

Greetings unto all to whom these presents come,

OYC

(PS To Ilfracombe could be added Bude, B.S., Padstow, Sidmouth, Seaton, Lyme R, Bridport, Ventnor, plus a selection from the East Coast like Mablethorpe)

seaton would be too complicated the tramway runs on the old track bed shame it doesn't link up to a station on the main line as an interchange

Brigstowe (http://www.bristol-link.co.uk/history/default.htm), rather than Bristolle  ;) :D ;D

Yer bt no bt iz Brizzle inet?

And the good news is that planning permission was granted, with work starting more or less immediately if the target date is still to be met.

Thats excellent news ;D

How about Cholsey-Wallingford? Compared with some of the schemes proposed already on this thread it would be pretty simple to get going. The track is already in place and up to passenger carrying standard. There is a half hourly service to London and Oxford at Cholsey with a cross platform interchange. As the hertiage services are fairly limited, running a Monday - Saturday 30 minute interval service wouldn't get in the way of steam/08 operations.

Wallingford is expanding all the time with 850 new houses just about to be built next to the station at Winterbrook. This line would be perfect for PPM operation and a 25mph restriction wouldn't be an issue because of the relatively short distance involved (just under 2.5 miles). As the route is self contained it wouldn't have to bother with the expense of TPWS/AWS/OTMR and carry on operating under an LRO.

What do you think?

They don't hang about, do they.

http://www.wsr.org.uk/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?h=Latest%20pictures&t=newspix

How come the WSR can build a platform (more or less) within a month of gaining planning permission , yet it takes our national railway forever.

Because as has been posted earlier they have a Fat Controller. Once a heritage railway decides to do something it doesn't have to have endless consultations with all and sundry to work out if it's feasable or how to do it.

Running certain trains terminating at Taunton along to the new Norton Fitz platform, where the passengers could transfer to a WSR service, seems to me to be an interesting proposition. However, the single platform at NF would mean that there couldn't be a two-way connection with both trains in the station at the same time, which seems a shame.   

http://www.wsr.org.uk/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?h=Latest%20pictures&t=newspix

All finished, inspected and ready for use. And a second platform face has been built, so I suspect it won't be too long (at least in railway heritage terms) before use is expanded from special events only.

Presumably, the two faces mean that the potential is there for a shuttle from NR/trains normally terminating at Taunton to connect with a WSR service to Minehead?

I suspect it might connect with a shuttle to Bishops Lydiard, rather than Minehead for operational simplicity.

Hmmm. The cynical part of me wonders if it were to be ...

London to Taunton on the Plymouth service.
- Change onto Cardiff -> Taunton extended to Norton Fitzwarren
- Change onto shuttle to Bishops Lydiard (An underutilised train if every I saw one, but I guess it won't cost 150k per coach per annum!)
- Change onto WSR main train to Minehead

... then it won't be a very popular through journey with the "take the kitchen sink on holiday too" brigade!

Cardiff - Taunton turnarounds are only about 15 minutes max, so scrap that idea ;)

S&D
Bath to Bournemouth Line S&D
Burnham-on-Sea via Glastonbury and Wells

Bristol to Radstock

Tamar Valley Line  extended back to Callington

L&SWR
Bere Alston to Coleford Junction
Bude to Meldon Junction

Lydford to Launceston

Burngullow to St Dennis Junction

Tarka Line extended back  to Bideford

Feniton to Sidmouth
Axminster  Lyme Regis

Portishead    to Parson Street to Bristol

Taunton to Chard
King's Lynn to Dereham
King's Lynn to Hunstanton
Norfolk Orbital Railway

Wisbech to March

Bedford to Northampton Line

Cambridge to Oxford
Station
Exmouth Station two have two platforms
Norton Fitzwarren
Wellington
Cullompton
Plympton

 :) you want them all back then basically  :) me too  but i have to ask why a second platform at exmouth?

The Exmouth Branch is my nearest line it was one of the things the the local rail group wants, This was one of the recomendation to enable a 30 Minute Service on the line.

Exmouth station use to have 4 platforms originally in the 60s.

But surely it already has a 30 minute service?

i think exmouth would benifit from a metro style service similar to the one they were proposing for manchester to marple but i dont think the main problem for frequency on the line is the single platform more the single line that runs the length of the branch, another platform at digby on the other hand would be a great benifit, on the subject of closed lines while i dont belive the entire line should be reopened.... most has been built on!, reopening the former budleigh salterton line just to the other side of exmouth(dinan way)  would provide a great service to the town

Exmouth line just needs newer and more carriages on trains at peak time.  Yes the single line can be an issue during a failure, but not enough to justify further doubling of the line.

A traitor to the humble "Donkeys" it would seem  :D

To be fair, they aren't too bad on the 25 min journey to Exmouth, at least you get a nice view over the estuary at all seats! Plus, that awful bit of track near Topsham has been replaced!

Neigh.........  ;D

The North Norfolk railway Now connected-ish (http://www.itv.com/anglia/steam-glory-days65359/) to the National Rail network.

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8562407.stm):