Great Western Coffee Shop

From the London Evening Standard:


For the full article, click here (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23690687-details/Revealed:+FirstGroup's+secret+50m+bailout+from+taxpayer/article.do).

Another DaFT cock-up!

And another typically written Evening Standard piece of 'journalism'!

Absolutely.  I assume that they are just refering to the pre-agreed operation of the "cap and collar" part of the franchise agreement rather than some secret dodgy handout. 

You could argue that the "cap and Collar" is entirely sensible.  If it wasn't in place you could bet the TOCs would have demanded much more favourable franchise terms to "price-in" the transfer of risk from the public to private sector.

Whilst I think that the whole system is a mess and have no particular fondness for Moir Lockhead and his companies, I'd rather the ressession didn't result in First handing back the keys just as they have started to get their act together wrt running the railway.   

This needs to be sorted! Perhaps by reducing the number of Advance fares, and making them more expensive; and lowering the price of Off-Peak tickets/ introducing more Super Off-Peak tickets. This will win back leisure passengers, and allow us to have a "turn up and go" railway. (esp after Virgin's HF timetable)

I'll be paying ^3.65 (Advance Single with railcard) for Kidderminster - London Euston - arriving early afternoon, because it is a lot cheaper than going Worcester - Paddington (over ^20)

However, if there was a walk up fare of about ^10-^15 Worcester Paddington for travelling at around mid-day, I would use that!

In a perhaps slightly more measured article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/5319657/FirstGroup-boosted-by-extra-40m-rail-support.html), the Telegraph points out that the figure is actually ^40 million - due to the payment of ^10 million made by First Group to the Government, in respect of TransPennine Express.

No, don't remove cheap advance fares. What a ridiculous idea. Cheap advance fares are what enables me and my family to travel by rail, we don't want cheaper Walk-On fares, we want the cheap advance fares which are very popular, they offer great value rail travel. Walk-on fares don't.

Presumably then the profits of Arriva Trains Wales, Scotrail, Crosscountry etc are still rising?  ;D

You have to differentiate between operating profits, premiums and subsidy. None of the three TOCs you mention are expected to return a premium to the DfT, so in practice they are not reliant on the farebox in the same way FGW are.

Paul

So is it the case that a fall in passenger revenues for these TOC's will be fully offset by an increase in subsidy?

I don't think 'fully', but 'mostly'.  I looked at Cap and Collar a while back:
http://canber.co.uk/?q=node/32

But why should a person who suddenly needs to travel have to be faced with sky high fares? Why should a person who books ahead be restricted to a specific train, so if their meeting finishes early, they can't catch the next train home?

I agree that the Advance Fares are popular and good value, but ^3.65 for a 150ish mile journey is unfair when a walk on person pays over the roof!

Walk on fares could be good value if the were re-priced. And that means a fair fare.

There was  a partial explanation in Rail Management http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/rm/195/RMAN_195.pdf (http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/rm/195/RMAN_195.pdf) this week, quoting AXC [Page 2]. The main thrust of the article is that the RMT will always paint the worst picture possible...

Paul

If your organised and plan ahead you save money! simple!

I am a bit perplexed that the Telegraph interview had no mention of FGW's problems early last year  :o ;D

Exactly, booking ahead enables the railway to control how busy trains get, cheap walk-on fares will cause overcrowding, and people would complain again.

I did say,

 ::) ;D

And if you suddenly want to travel, you get punished.

Notice the difference? The gap between the two fares is far too great. Perhaps it is right to reward those who book ahead. But it is wrong to punish those who can't with sky high fares. It's not fair.

And with the VHF timetable, people should have flexibility, and be able to travel home at any time from 1130 to 1630 and after 1830. (or whatever the off peak times are)

The idea is to punish people who turn up on the day though. A lot of people now use AP tickets, getting the best deal. Others get season, tickets, which are great value, then many people use walk on fares, but for short distances, also getting a good deal. Long distance walk on fares, are expensive, but the railway must sell many less now. Maybe they do need to be lowered, but not if AP fares have to be raised to compensate.

Why should people be punished for just turning up on the day?  It's not always possible to know your travel plans in advance and it's unfair to charge people ridiculous fares just for as they don't know when a meeting is going to finish or want a bit of flexibility.

The system before 2006 worked quite well, the Super Saver was available at a reasonable price and if you wanted an even cheaper journey then advance fares also existed.  In 2006 the Super Saver was scrapped and more advance fares were introduced.  Advance fares certainly have their place but I don't think this should be at the expense of affordable walk-on fares.  The current policies if anything encourage car travel as you no longer have any flexibility on the railways if you want to travel at a reasonable price.

I agree with Zoe.

Many Off-Peak trains are relatively empty - even with Advance fares. (apparently the Paddington - Cardiff terminators are, I expect most of the Euston - Birmingham/Manchester ones are since VHF)

But the M4,M40 and M1/M6 are certainly not quiet!

Why don't TOCs fill these seats by offering lower walk up fares, and let's get cars off the road.

I'd support cheaper walk up fares. I dislike tying myself to a journey for leisure in case the weather is naff. I think a system where 1 or 2 coaches were filled with one tier of bargain fares and the rest can be more reasonably priced walk up fares. I'd travel further if it was going to be cheaper when the trains are particularly busy. The only flaw is the fact that a 1.30pm departure from Taunton to London is likely to be packed so I fear the restrictions would be seemingly astronomical.

Completely agree with d_m. As I've said elsewhere, a good argument can be made for effectively reintroducing the old "First" "Standard" and "Third" structure, with cheap seats in Third for those who want to book in advance at a bargain rate, and a bit more legroom - more seats with tables! - in Standard class for the walk-ons and those who don't mind paying extra.

Either way consideration definitely needs to be given to revisting the whole ticket structure as it stands at the moment. It's a mess.

The current "mess" is with walkup fares though! thats where the confusion is! someone who goes up to a TVM wanting a ticket to go from Truro to Plymouth, at 1100 in the morning who is coming back the next day at 1230 will look at the range of fares and probably chose "Anytime return" because the name is missleading, they may not realise that "Off-Peak" return is a period ticket? some people do it! and what most people here are suggesting is to introduce "super off-peak" type tickets that are valid for 3 or 4 trains, that would be a nightmare to enforce and creates more complex restrictions for passengers, at least with Advance it clearly states the train time on the reservation so theres no arguement! As for introducing 3 classes well thats just daft!

I agree completely with you Vacman on this.

Fares are very complicated and have been for a long time, but he "fare simplifciation" made things a lot worse because they imposed a venneer of simplifaction over the top of the same old mess.

The old tickets had words in them like "saver" or "cheap" which were ambiguous in meaning (for example a saver might have an evening peak restriction whereas a "cheap" ticket might not and the words themselves do nothing to assist in figuring this out) but they didn't pretend to be simpler than they actually were.  All they told the uninformed passenger was that they were more restricted and therefore cheaper than "open tickets".  If the passenger needed more information than that they asked or looked it up on the internet or whatever.  Now you have "off peak" and "anytime" which to the simple-minded passenger implies that there is a uniform peak period and a uniform off peak period (by annology with the tube or bus tickets say it isen't unreasonable to assume that "off peak" means something like "after 9:30" or "not in the morning or evening rush hour" and I bet if you asked prople off the street that is the kind of answer you would get).  Those titles hide a huge amount of complexity.   

What do you mean difficult to understand? A system could work as follows:

Standard Anytime - valid any time, out on date of ticket, return (if any) within a month.

Standard Off Peak - not valid on weekday journeys which finish before 1130, out on date on ticket, return (of any) within a month.

Super Off Peak - not valid on weekday journeys which finish before 1130 and weekday journeys which start between 1630 and 1830, out on date on ticket, return (of any) within a month.

All tickets allow one break of journey. Railcards valid on all tickets. Groupsave valid on Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares.

Simple. You know where you stand with whatever ticket you buy.

But then the 1000 Penzance - Paddington would be overwhelmed with people?

Plymouth, Totnes, Newton A, Exeter, Tiverton & Taunton all lie within your off peak hours and that particular service is heaving upon leaving Cornwall in summer.

Thats just one example...

But surely off peak tickets are valid at the moment on that train?

I acknolwedge that the system would not work 100% - but the current one doesn't either!

Super Off Peak doesn't exist. I'm not sure how many people would travel to London on normal Off Peak tickets anyhow as they cost so much.

From The Times (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6349922.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1):

Off-Peak tickets are valid on that train, BUT around 90% of pax on that service are usually on Advance tickets! By saying you can use a super off-peak on any journey completed before 1130 then what about evening peak chaos? Advance tickets help to regulate pax flow and at the same time are huge bargains!

I said that super off peak tickets are not valid on journeys completed before 1130 and commenced between 1630 and 1830. So there would not be "evening peak" chaos.

Instead, affordable flexibility - drawing lots of passengers to the railway at off peak times.

I prefer AP. Just booked myself some complete bargains!

I know: London to Birmingham for under ^4! But I doubt the average impulse traveller would begrudge a higher, but reasonable "Super Off Peak" ticket. TOCs get more money, pax have more flexibility (no worries about missing scheduled train, and can come home early if you decide to), off peak trains are filled.

One small problem, perhaps SW orientated?

Off peak trains are busy!!

Whatever restrictions you devise it will not be perfect, but any scheme ought to be simple and universal enough for the restrictions to be printed on the back of the ticket itself.  When you need to consult the Online jounrey planner or the guard needs to look it up in his machine the system is too complicated.     

If you are not you pay through the nose thereby eliminating the turn-up-and-go advantage that the railway has over other modes and leaving the private car as the only option that retains that flexibility.

Huge amounts of taxpayer money are spent on upgrading the railway to "turn up and go" frequences and simple clock-face timetables.  What is the point if noone can afford to take advantage of the flexibilty provided?

bad situation.... most trains are packed in fgw land

dropping fairs would help attract more passengers

but then overcrowding will get worse, no spare stock to go around and even if there was costs would go up and fgw would make even more of a loss...

This as as FGW are packing most of the train with advance fares, it would work if there were less advance fares available.  No I'm not saying there should not be any advance fares at all but have 2 coaches full of advance fares and leave the rest for cheaper off peak fares.

The fares restrictions NEED to be simplified. I have the NFM, and it is hard enough to understand!

We should have a system where if you ticket is an "Off Peak Return", you know that it is valid after X time, you can return within the month, Group Saves and railcard discounts can apply, and a break is/is not allowed.

We also need to AXE "day" fares. Why have an "Off Peak Day" and an "Off Peak Return" on the same route?

So if you want to come back on the same day you can pay less, quite sensible really.

How can you have the NFM? The restrictions aren't available to the public.

Just out of idle curiosity on my part, devon_metro ... do you have access to a copy of the National Fares Manual? :P

I have access to Avantix Traveller and some slightly outdated restrictions stashed away somewhere ;)

 ;)

Why?

It promotes the use of the train as a leisure travel mechanism, a valid reason imo.

But why charge more for a months return? It doesn't put the TOC out. So why charge more?

Because he put his hand in his pocket and bought a copy?
http://www.tsoshop.co.uk/bookstore.asp?FO=1241783&DI=615108 (http://www.tsoshop.co.uk/bookstore.asp?FO=1241783&DI=615108)

I've tried downloading avantix all I get is virus's or porn, I have the mobile version or had but as the only mobile device I have now is apple it's not compatible anyone have a download link and will it work on vista

How should ticket prices be set?  If your starting point is that they should be set at costs + operating margin then different prices for the same journey make little sense. 

But of course many other factors are at play.  At one end there is a desire to price people off overcrowded train at the other end of the spectrum there is the desire to price people (especially leisure travellers) onto lightly used trains (charging a ^1 fare is better for the TOC than an emply seat - but only if you assume that the bargains are only being snapped up by people who would not otherwise have travelled).  There are also "political considerations" - promoting mobility and keeping commuters sweet.

The conflicting motivations and the fact that for regulated fares the solutions worked out 12 yeras ago are still set in stone, have resulted in the fares mess that we have today.

IMO the system is starting to slowly breakdown because price diferentials have risen and passengers are using the net to get wise to various methods of saving money by using fares not really designed for them (ie the assumption that business travelers will always buy a flexible ticket is being erroded as more or these lucrative passengers are buying in advance or learning how to rebook). 

Two example:
1, A whole generation of net savy students is growing up thinking that advanced fare are the only way to travel whereas when I was a student 15 years ago the mentality and expecation was that so long as you had a YP railcard and kept out of London in the peak a reasonably priced supersaver or saver could be brought on the day for virtually any journey in the country (such freedom!)

2, Business is starting to realise that fares are too high to pay for their staff to travel without a very good reason.  My firm has offices in Bath and London.  15 years ago all new trainees starting in the Bath office were told that they needed to spend two non-consectuive days a week in London.  10 years ago it was 1 day a week.  Now it is "go to London once when you start to introduce yourself and then only go when you really need to - and try to get a cheap train fare when you do" - which works out at perhaps 6 times a year.  Perhaps 1000 fewer open returns per year are being bought by the company compared with 15 years ago.

The current system is not the best for passengers but I no longer think that it is neccessarily the most profitable system for the TOCs either because passengers are starting to rebel against some of the extortionate fares and complicated restrictions by finding a way around them or by not travelling at all. 

I suspect that the ressesion has caused passenger numbers to drop only very slightly if at all, but that revenue has dropped significnatly as people with jobs are still travelling but on cheaper tcikets.  When the recovery comes very few of those peopel will trade up again to the very expensive tickets.

There are plenty fo properous passengers and people on company expenses on many routes who are travelling on 30 quid advanced fares and who would willingly pay say 60 quid for a flexible walk-up fare, but who will not be willing to pay ^120 for that fare. 

It's got a lot to do with fraud prevention. A Day return can only be used for one day.  With a bit of luck a month return can be used a few times, and regular travellers have sussed this out. So in a roundabout way, offering a day return at a slightly lower price than the month return avoids people being tempted.

Similar reasoning has led to period returns being basically unavailable within about 50 miles of London.

Paul

Tim, I agree with your post.

We are now reaching the point where if you are making a long distance journey, an Advance ticket is the only affordable ticket.

If I suddenly needed to travel to Glasgow tomorrow, I would probably drive. As I know that a walk-up ticket is about ^70 with a railcard. If I know in advance, I can get a much cheaper ^20 ticket, but I loose any flexibility.

If a walk-up fare was available for about half the price, ^40, valid on off peak trains, I would use that to travel - both if I was planning in Advance (as I have flexibility) and if I needed to impulse travel. TOCs are loosing out: people are either paying for dirt cheap fares, or are driving.

Find a balance in the prices, and they'd get more passengers and more money.

I don't know anybody who would travel on a Voyager to Glasgow. What a harrowing thought!!

I've always thought that this was a non-ideal way to combat fraud.  I much prefer the continental requirement that you must date stamp your ticket for it to be valid (with heavy fines for unstanped tickets)