Great Western Coffee Shop

By the end of next year London Midland will allegedly have started replacing it's 150s on the Jewelery line through Birmingham (former GWR of course!) with new 172s.  Could these 150s be put to use augmenting some of FGWs local services across the west? Does anyone know what is planned for them? They're a bit old but they have to be better than some of the rolling stock FGW currently uses and there's lots of them!

quids in northen get them the northwest is aloud to have a semi decent railway service

\

dont care where the 150s go - but PLEASE - replace them!

Then I have a choice over FGW!  A genuine choice

All I want is a table!

What I have heard is that with FGW now getting more 172s for the Thames Valley services as well as West services and Northern getting less 172s than first thought, FGW will get to keep all current stock except the ATW 150s and just receive a few LM 150s, with the rest going to Northern.

But when are FGW getting 172's for the Thames Valley, have they even been ordered yet?

Daft is doing a new three car trick "Search for the new DMUS."

How many TOCs are due 172s I read LM, Chiltern, London Overground, FGW plus who else?

How units many is each TOC due, how many units are actually on order?

I have a feeling that the figures don't add up.

The LM, Chiltern and Overground orders, which are all in hand at Bombardier in Derby, are nothing to do with the further batch that is still stuck in DafT, which would involve extra stock for FGW, Northern and TransPennine. And yes, if they ever get ordered, then almost all the LM 150s will go to Northern.

But don't get any ideas that the LM 172s will be fitted out like Chiltern Clubmans. They will be pack-em-in suburban style, like the 150s they will replace.

Northern seem to be getting a much reduced number of new trains from the rolling stock plan now.

Fewer 172s, more 150s, and also fewer new EMUs, more second hand 323s (which is a complete about turn) seems to be the latest idea.

Good for FGW though, I suspect when the final analysis is done, it will all be down to the completely different economics of the SE (ie LTV), the GWML, and the NW local franchises - ie when push came to shove, Northern's finances didn't make new unit leases easily affordable.

Paul

Presumably, if TPE get extra 172s, then the 170s which they have could move to XC for their ex citylink servicrs???  Extra units would always be a bonus there!

Not likely at all, because the idea is to provide additional stock for TPE capacity. There is no (published) intention of a cascade out form TPE, that would not be in line with the rolling stock plan.

Paul

Confused? I suppose you could always try a Freedom Of Information request to DaFT asking about new DMU provision and subsequent cascades. Whether you'd be any the wiser from the answer is not known. 

The rumours that are circulating in the North are all going around the Northern franchise agreement that no newly built trains are required until before 2014.

Regarding 142s/180s it is confirmed that the 3 Northern 180s will be transferred to National Express East Coast in Dec 2010 and the 142s with FGW are to replace them!  So that'll likely involve a reshuffle to put 4 car 156s on what are currently the 180 diagrams.  This will likely mean services like Manchester Victoria to Selby and Chester to Manchester will see more Pacers.

DfT seemed to want all the 150s to go to FGW, but then they realised that would mean Northern would need an order of new units.  Now it's rumoured all the 150s will go the other way and FGW will receive an order of new units to replace their 142s and 143s.

If you think that it is odd then you've not heard the 323 story.  In the original rolling stock plan, London Midland were to receive the Northern 323s and Northern were to receive new units to replace the 323s, then the Northern 321s were added in to be replaced as well.  Then DfT revised the rolling stock plan to say Northern will receive 'new or cascaded EMUs' which led to suggestions Northern would get 313s or 315s, which wouldn't have been great on Manchester to Stoke or Leeds to Doncaster services where the line speeds exceed 100mph. The latest is now that London Midland will receive brand new EMUs and Northern will get their 323s!

I don't know if that's a serious comment or not. 

If it's not then you should try catching a peak train to or from Manchester or Liverpool and see 200 people trying to cram on a single 142, with many already waiting for the next service instead.  In general the 142s in the North West are being used on very busy commuter services not the rural low-patonage lines like in Cornwall that they were intended for, before they got banned.  Leeds has been lucky though due to West Yorks Metro involvement and got 158s for most semi fast services (such as Blackpool, Hull and Nottingham) with the 155s and 156s originally used on those services cascaded on to local services alongside 3 car 144s and a few odd 150s and 153s.

TPE need extra units as a big increase in passenger demand means they will need to provide an additional Manchester to York service every hour (which will also provide a more consistent service) and that doesn't allow for overcrowding on the Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes route or the Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland services.

Obviously you've never travelled on any of our branch lines at any point between easter and the end of October then? in this part of the world most of the branches are actually very busy commuter routes during the peaks then even busier routes full of holiday makers and day trippers during the "off-peak" (off-peak generally full and standing on routes such as St Ives, Falmouth, Newquay and between Exeter-Dawlish and Paignton!)

Well I think this says it all you couldn't make it up, nobody would believe you.

Official; rolling stock procurement is total mess.

Indeed, vacman.

When you see a 2 car 142 bouncing towards you then its instantly a race to get a seat/on.

4 cars can be nice and cosy at certain times too.

Um, it does seem that the West seem to lose out when it comes to unit swapping time, and Northern always seems to win.
I'd hardly call lines in Cornwall low-patronage.
The mainline has absolutely ram packed XC and West services. HST services are busy as well.
St Ives is full and standing with four carriages, Falmouth very busy with two and Newquay has to have a coach on standby in the summer.

In reply to a couple of you I was referring to the number of passengers using Cornish branch lines when the 142s were built and passenger numbers overall, not just during the summer.  Obviously Cornwall and Devon are popular UK holiday destinations so it would be expected that a lot of people would use trains there in the summer.  Hence, why XC have in the past hired HSTs from GNER or NXEC for summer trains, rather than using their own Voyagers.

I thought FGW were getting 172's for the CDF-PHB route, therefore freeing up the current 3 car 158's to be put back to 2 car 158's, to run elsewhere.

Northern are the largest TOC in the country and are using all old BR trains, expect for a few newish 333s for Leeds-Bradford which were introduced when the line was electrified.

Proportionally very few Northern trains have been refurbished and they have around 90 Pacers in service, some of which can run 2 hour journeys.

I think it's a common misconception in the South West that because Northern got 30 158s that they are used on a lot of local services, when most of them run Leeds-Nottingham, York-Blackpool (a former Transpennine Express route), Leeds-Hull and Sheffield-Hull which certainly aren't short routes and Northern only got these due to West Yorkshire Metro sponsorship.  It always seems to be forgotten where most of the former TPE 158s (which many people rate as better than the 170s and 185s) went? Answer: First Great Western.

You should also remember the North West lost the 175s and the 180s were originally intended for Blackpool to London services but when First North Western's bid for that route failed the units went to First Great Western.

But now they're rumoured to be getting Northern's original allocation as well as their own.  Hence, many more services will benefit from new trains.

i used to live in marple, trust me i know what it can be like up there! but the reason i said ''semi decent'' is that although getting a seat is difficult the frequency of the trains is amazing... for example marple to manchester is now every 20 mins at peak times plus the hourly service from rose hill marple, manchester to stockport atleast every ten mins, coupled with the fact that there are so many stations your never far from one,im not saying its perfect up there but lets face it compaired to the southwest they get a decent service

I'm sure you northerners will appreciate those extra trains being with FGW during the 6 weeks of hell imposed upon us during summer ;)

SO now FGw are to gain a lot more 172s.... and then lose pacers and possibly 150s??

Seems to make sence to get them into one frachise.  Just a shame that the wales franchise ATW cant get all the 150s, which are technicallymore suited to their valley lines service, and in turn replace all of their 142s.  This would then allow the oppertunity to replace every single pacer with Northern with a brand new style unit before regulations about access etc change. 

which lines are the pacers technically suited too?  :D

If you mean the 180s, then the 175s were just as bad before Wales & Borders took them.  We had 50 year old 101s running medium length journeys to cover for the 175s and the timetables had to be drawn up with quick turnaround times (about 5 minutes at each end, before the days of generous recovery time.)  That meant not only would could you expect 55% of trains more than 10 minutes late on some lines but a 50 year old train turned up when it arrived.

I agree on some services the frequency is very good, there's also the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds section of the North Transpennine services. 

Stockport's frequency is very high as it was thought there were regulations saying passenger trains could not go through Stockport and had to stop.  However, Arriva asked for proof which couldn't be provided and their Manchester-Bristol services now go through Stockport.

However, you should note that there is now only an hourly peak stopping service to Crewe from Manchester and only an hourly train in the peaks to Chester via Altrincham (both used to be 3 per hour in the peaks at privitasation.)  These weren't cut back because of poor passenger numbers but because Virgin Trains requested extra paths through Stockport.

Pacers well suited to trundling up and down the Beach.....

But not any more - the whole point of this discussion is that originally both FGW and Northern were down for some 172s and some LM 150s.  But recent announcements, and Roger Ford's revelation of the details in the ITT, show that it is now FGW down for mostly new DMUs (possibly more 172s), and Northern are assumed to be getting ex LM 150s only.

Paul

The scrap line. 

Sorry couldn't resist

I would have thought now that there are revenue barriers in place at Cardiff Central & Queen St the Pacers were the ideal jobbie for the Cardiff Valley Lines. Max journey about 15 miles at around 45mph or less. Bit of a waste putting bogied stock on those runs IMHO, particularly as Pacers have better acceleration than a 150 at sub 50mph speeds.  Whoever sanctioned the loss in December 2007 of 8 perfectly serviceable Wessex 150/2 to ATW wants putting against a wall and shooting. Had those sets remained at FGW, none of the Pacer diversification would have been neccessary. If you had to send stock to ATW, the 8 x 143/6 should have been sent, thus concentrating the entire class on one depot.

Arrivas Manchester South Wales I think you mean. And whilst there is only an hourly service to crewe - stockport is not that far from man pic - I suspect its the slough of the north wet

What ghas the revenue barriers between Cardiff stations got to do with the suitability of a pacer to the route?  I would have thought this made no difference, as the trains are still busy.

And for those who complain about the pacers going to ATw..... you try some of the journeys ATW use 150s on, in a pacer, and maybe youll think differently. 

Easy. If you have 14x running in Multi, there is no through gangway access which makes on board revenue protection more difficult. If you have revenue barriers in place you recover the lost revenue due to the grip not being able to get through the train to collect / issue tickets.
Taunton to Cardiff on a 143 is not exactly a wonderful experience either. Which is why the 14x are far more suited to short runs on the Valley Lines / Grumbly Gasworks network.

Well it sounds like the LM 150s will be usefully employed somewhere, which is good.
I am concerned that post-privatisation railway companies and passengers alike have been overly interested in rolling stock replacement.  One thing I often notice when traveling on the continent is the age of some of the rolling stock, they seem to be able to keep old vehicles running in a good condition for a while longer then we do. I wonder if money spent on new carpets and paint jobs could have been better spent getting me to work on time.

Only if EVERY station is barriered

Nothing stopping someone getting on at cardiff, buying the cheapest ticket possible knowing they are getting off at an unbarriered station

either EVERY station has to have a barrier or none because the alternative is false sense of security where those people who can add 2 + 2 can play the system

Sorry, but some of them are meant to go to Northern, not many, but some of them, because they and TPX need extra stock just as badly as FGW.

The following line was in the DafT press release in March announcing they were setting up their own leasing company to buy the trains

"The trains are set to enter service by 2012 subject to negotiations with train operators First Great Western, Trans-Pennine Express and Northern Rail."

I wasn't clear with this.  When I said hourly service I meant hourly all stations Northern service.  Crewe does have more than one train an hour to Manchester, but Sandbach, Goostrey, Chelford, Alderley Edge, Handforth (on the Crewe to Manchester line) are only served by Northern services.

Stockport does look like it's just south of Manchester on a map but if you're on a local train doing Stockport to Manchester it can take an eternity as priority is given to Virgin Trains services, then CrossCountry, then Transpennine Express ,then Arriva Trains Wales, then Northern.

North Western Trains did a good job of refurbishing 150s but unfortuantely they tried to squeeze too many seats in to too small an area.  If they'd made them all 3 car with 2+2 seating and a bit extra leg room (which wouldn't have been possible due to the number of carriages they had) then it would have been better.

Merseyrail's 507/508s from the 1970s are also refurbished to a high standard internally.  So much so that you'd think you're on a newish train if you didn't know better and only realise that you're on an old train when it starts moving, but they still run much better than Pacers.

Thanks for clarifying that, but it was still very much an oversimplification for the earlier poster to suggest that Northern always gets much better treatment than FGW when it comes to new units. The supposed 44 vehicles for Portsmouth Cardiff have altered the original divi up significantly...

Paul

Wrong - each 172 carriage will contain about 10 fewer seats than a 150 coach, so they are not "packing them in". Seating will be 2+2, presumably in the same layout as LM 170s. The fact that the coaches will each be about 10 feet longer will be offset by the addition of a disabled toilet, and wheelchair area.

Unfortunately, this will mean more commuters will have to stand - but not for Mookie, as there are always seats at Kidderminster in the morning rush hour.

Just a comment regarding ATW's valley routes. Most are actually very long, especially as trains are rostered very efficiently, with routes being combined and units being kept on long W pattern type diagrams. For instance, a train might start at Cardiff, then go to Bridgend (1hr), straight back to Cardiff (1hr), then on through Cardiff to Abedare (1hr), then STRAIGHT back to Cardiff (1hr), then onto Barry (half hour), straight back to Cardiff, up to Merthyr (1hr), straight back to Cardiff, onto Bridgend and then straight back to Cardiff. That's why they have been forced to improve reliability.

And this is why we might see some of the stock allocation change- for instance, the 142s are much more reliable than the 143s and Sprinters. Even though they are old, ATW might want to keep hold of them, as they are dependable. Similarly, Northern run 321 based electrics, which I think are the most reliable type of AC unit in the country. Why have new units (with running in glitches and system wide teething troubles), when you can get your hands on LM's super reliable 321s......

New isn't necesarily better.

Daniel

But they won't be getting their hands on the maintenance team from Northampton (previously Bletchley). Modern Railways does an annual survey of rolling stock performance and the variations in miles per casualty between depots for the same types of trains are often quite striking.

And under the latest plan, what Northern looks likely to get are 323s from Birmingham to add to their exisitng sets based in Manchester, not 321s, of which they currently operate a grand total of three, based on the other side of the Pennines for Leeds-Doncaster stoppers.



I was referring to Mookie's request for a table, and they will not have tables - just rows of airline seats, even with a 2+2 layout, and won't look like a Clubman interior. And given how busy some Birmingham commuter trains are, the wider aisles make a lot of sense.

They might have a few tables dotted here and there (to reverse the direction of seating in the middle of each coach).

But yes, hopefully, the wider doors and aisles will allow more standing (although I would prefer if LM cut the order of 2 car trains and put in the same number of 3 car trains, so peak trains can be 6 car instead of 5).