Great Western Coffee Shop

I was travelling up to Bristol Parkway from Taunton yesterday, Paid ^18.50 for a First Class Off Peak Return.

The train wasn't to busy, a few empty seats, yet some people still stood in the vestibules!

The TM was in a rather sympathetic mood and offer complimentary First Class Upgrades to about 15 pax, which is fair enough because nobody wants to be stood next to the rather obnoxiously smelling lavatory!

What has annoyed me was that a return with railcard to Bristol Parkway from Taunton is ^6.85 IIRC, A First Class Return with Railcard is ^18.50

So I paid more than double my fare on a Sunday which has a reduced FC service, yet about 15 passengers got the extra perks for nothing!

The question is, am I entitled to claim the difference back off of XC between FC and STD??

I travel in FC because I am a nervous traveller and enjoy peace and quiet and surroundings with low numbers of people...! I got everything but those things...! I am not a snob... :P

Worth a shot emailing them!

It's one reason I object to using Advance fares, I like to sit in the least busy part of standard class (most of the time coach A) and with an Advance fare I have to sit in the reserved seat.

I have to say that when I travelled First Class last month, I did like the peace and quiet.

But I will not go first if I am travelling late or at weekends where there is no host.

As for your case - email them; you've nothing to lose except some internet minutes!


Just use a Mixing Deck booking website and request a seat in the Quiet Zone (A). There - you can go Advance!

Yes but it may not be up the Train Manager's end of the coach (if heading for London) and so could be going backwards.  I also don't want to be forced to sit next to another person if there are other empty seats.

I very rarely sit in my reserved seat, as I often find one with an optimum window view (normally the 2 at the back of the TGS)

I like to sit in the single seat at the back of the TGS when going to London.  I note that the terms and conditions of Advance tickets say that you must sit in your reserved seat so you could risk an excess if you get a very fussy guard.

They won't give an excess. The guard will mainly check that you are on the right train.

If they get fussy about the seat, they'll just tell you to move back.

Just make sure you remove the card from your reserved seat so another passenger can sit down.

How do you know, if you were sitting in 1st?

I think you got what you paid for, which is a seat in 1st Class, so I don't think you can complain. Your ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat and 3 vacant seats around the table.

As a regular 1st class traveller myself, I don't have much sympathy with your predicament. These things happen now and again.  ^18.50 seems rather good value for a journey of that distance first class.

Sounds simple to me!

I tend to feel a bit sick if I go backwards or don't have a good view out of the window so I am just a bit concerned about a guard asking me to move to reserved seat.

"I am just a bit concerned about a guard asking me to move to reserved seat."

"you must sit in your reserved seat so you could risk an excess if you get a very fussy guard"

"I also don't want to be forced to sit next to another person if there are other empty seats"

"with an Advance fare I have to sit in the reserved seat."

For Pete's sake give it a rest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With me, I said "Sorry, I'm not in my reserved seat, does this matter?"

The guard said "it doesn't matter - as long as you've actually got a seat!"

Indicating that the priority is making sure everyone is seated somewhere.

Of course every guard is different, but I hardly think a guard is going to make a fuss. Person sitting in the wrong seat in Coach A - Crime of the century! Forget the fare dodgers in Coach E, they can wait while I sort out this debacle!

Hear, hear!

And to think this Forum started life because people either didn't have a train service, or because they couldn't get on the trains they were so crowded. Now we're getting complaints because people don't want to sit next to another person or have standard class passengers in their nice first class coach.

You could argue that the reason for such discussions is because the railway has got better! ;)

But obviously not in the case of TransWilts... :'(

PS: good picture at the top right of the page ("Bring back our trains")

Anyway, back to subject! ;D

At last some common sense appears on this discussion regards Advance ticket seat reservations.

I use Advance tickets all the time, sometimes I sit in the seat reserved for me, sometimes I don't and not once have I been asked to move but would gladly do so if asked by a train manager because I chose to purchase an advance ticket. I have in front of me the official ATOC published T&C's card for Advance tickets and I quote:

Where applicable, you must travel in the class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

It's the word applicable thats important here meaning relevant, or lets look at the word application meaning formal request. So I take that as being at the train manager's discrection which could be applied at anytime for whatever reason so if you don't sit in your reserved seat; you may be asked to move. As Flamingo says, the main thing the TM is interested in when checking your reservation is to see that you are not trying to pull as fast one by travelling on the wrong train and I've seen people trying it on and ending up being excessed for their trouble.

Also remember on weekends you can upgrade to weekend first with some IC TOCs with a standard class advance ticket so you wouldn't be sitting in your reserved standard class seat if you've upgraded to First.

Timmer's right, although technically the holder of an Advance ticket should occupy their allocated seat, this rule is never enforced. I've heard on the grapevine about a few NXEC guards enforcing it on very busy trains but have never been challenged by any FGW staff: like flamingo says, as long as you're on the right train nobody cares.

It's one of those rules that is there but is ignored 99% of the time (in much the same way as byelaw 7, which forbids "[the use of any] instrument, article or equipment for the production or reproduction of sound...to the annoyance of any person" and is enforcable in any vehicle of any train, not just quiet carriages).

If it had been 2 or 3 people then that would have been fair enough, but it wasn't, it was about 15 which I find slightly insulting that i've paid extra for something that 15 others got for free...!

Granted these things do happen, i'm not disputing that, I don't want a whole table to myself, However if the person sat 2 seats down could silence their 3 screaming kids and stop them throwing chocolate buttons... that'd be grand ;D

"The one that IS never used (but should be) is the one about refusing travel if drunk"

Not 100% true, in my experience. I have known station staff refuse travel to some who have been clearly unfit through drink, sometimes with the advice to drink coffee, sober up, and come back later. Of course, it's only the obviously incapable (or aggressive) who are easily identifiable. 

I often use advance tickets and sometimes I dont sit in the reserved seat. I also only remember one instance of ever being asked to see the seat reservation ticket by the TM. Usually they just ask to see my journey ticket and arent bothered if its the correct train or not im on.

I don't see why you should get a refund.  You paid for a first class seat and that is what you got.  You didn't pay for a near empty coach. 

What if the coach was full of people all on first class tickets?  Would you feel entitled to a discount then?  If not then your complaint would appear to be that someone else got a better bargin than you did but I don't see why that is any of your business (sorry).

I can see both sides - I am probably of the opinion only FC or people who pay to upgrade should be in FC however I can understand why in some circumstances the TM relaxes the rules (and yes it does pee you off - sitting here with a table to myself spread out getting work done - of other FC passengers were here then I'd have no issue however if someone paid SC fare and was taking up space........)

However, if Virgin have the same issue they just declassify first class and you do get a refund on your first class fare.  Or they did last time it happened to me.

Had that have been the case, then I wouldn't have been in the slightest bit bothered, because everyone would have paid the premium to sit there. However, On this particular journey, the TM decided to offer approximately 15 pax a free First Class upgrade. I'm not one of those passengers that wants a whole table to myself, or even a whole carriage to myself. I don't have an issue sharing my table with someone provided there aren't any nearby empty tables available.

What I am trying to get at, is, I paid a walk up price on a weekend to go into FC. To then be invaded by some screaming kids for over an hour, IMO is slightly unfair!

Ok how about this for disparity in cost, and why I would have no hesitation in making FC passengers a wee bit uncomfortable if the situation presented itself. (It^s not my fault they let me in)

For a few years I used the last minute deal system for a cheap week in the Canaries around the beginning of December, (a week in the sun for ^150), SC, no frills on the flight and allocated accom on arrival. Bit of a lucky dip and flight times are probably not the best in the world, but what the hell, a great week, cheap booze and duty free, and not once have we been given a shed in the a**e end of nowhere.

Our best result was a week in a fully inclusive, (so sick after 3 days), but were brought down a peg or two on another occasion after saying we had only paid ^xxx that year, but that the two lads from Manchester we were chatting to had won theirs on a radio phone in. How demoralising is that.

thetrout, just wait till GWR starts giving away free tickets for FC travel, then you will have something to complain about.

They already do I'm afraid, tramway - certain competitions over the years have featured two free 1st Class tickets to a destination of your choice as the prize.

They must have been on my trip to Plymouth the other week then.  ;D

And annual season ticket holders have been given 6 free tickets of the same class as your season ticket.

but no more unfare than the fact that some people in your coach will be on cheap advanced fares and some on expensive full price fares.

I'm sorry, but your complain would appear to be driven by little more then envy.

Good news for Zoe !

I bought two Advance First Class tickets from the FGW website yesterday. It gave me the choice of whether I wanted a reserved seat or not - when I selected "not" it informed me I could sit where ever I wanted.  I still got a reservation ticket when I collected the tickets from the machine, to show the train to travel on, but the coach and seat part just had *****.
Is this a new facility ? I don't recollect seeing it before.

Why risk standing? If the reservation is free, you might as well make one! You don't need to keep to it.

Btline considering my experience of XC from Bristol - Taunton Yesterday I agree 90% with that!

Considering my XC service from Bristol - Taunton was very much Full and Standing in First Class, I only just managed to get a seat, which I gave away to somebody who was less able to stand. In that situation Seat Reservations can be a god send...!

But when I sometimes commute to work, seat reservations are hardly needed. I just plonk myself down anywhere, if somebody does have my seat reserved I will move... But saying that, I might get slightly annoyed should somebody decide to move me when there are plenty of empty tables and seats...! >:(

In First ?, on the 0946 from Warminster to Waterloo ?

Would agree, depending upon the train !

Esp if you have shelled out for First Class! (Advance ticket or not)

What if the train before is cancelled? You could have double the normal number of First Class passengers, plus other Standard Class passengers the guard lets in due to overcrowding in Standard!

I would get a reservation! If you use a Mixing Deck website, you can specify having a view, being near the end of a carriage, forward, reverse etc. And as I said before, you can ignore it anyway.

You can specify all of that on the trainline based systems too....

Your argument is getting more and more desperate !  ;)

The "train before" is at 1647 - the day before ! Any other train after that has no First Class accommodation, so it is pretty unlikely that people would have bought a First Class ticket to travel Standard class on those services. (Unless they are an MP, perhaps  :D)
Based on my previous experiences on this train, if the number of First Class passengers (at Warminster) is doubled, that would be 2 - me, twice !
You could quadruple the number of people in Standard Class and still barely overcrowd one coach of the 3 coach train.
This is a quiet service that only starts to fill after Salisbury, when it becomes 9 coaches anyway.

As for Btline's comment about specifying a seat going "forward, reverse, etc", has he been on the service to Gt Malvern ? - it changes direction so often I wonder if the driver knows which end he should be sitting in.

Ok perhaps it will be empty. But I personally would still reserve.... ;)


Even a seat with a view?


Yes I have. And I can assure you that there is nowhere at Malvern for a train to change direction! The nearest point where this could happen is the Worcester triangle. But no FGW services turn here. Only LM services from Droitwich to Malvern, which call at Shrub Hill, turn.

Besides. Even if the train reverses, you can still work out which direction to book.

Or (as I've said before) you can just change seats! :o

The mixing deck system however does not let you see your seat numbers before you pay.

Yes it does! And I always check on a seating plan on all VTs and old XCs. If I don't like the seat, I go back (change any settings if necessary) and refresh.

I do wish people would read what I actually said, not what they think I might have said.  :)

I did not say the train reversed direction AT Great Malvern, I said TO Great Malvern. The train certainly reverses at Temple Meads and at Gloucester en route.
However, as you raised the point about Great Malvern...............I am left wondering if, as you say there is nowhere for the train to change direction, how on earth it goes back along the same route from Great Malvern as it took to get there, without the driver having to change ends and the train changing direction.

I must confess to never actually having been there, but looking at Google earth there appear to be two options.
1. The train returns "wrong side" until it can cross to the "right side", some where on the way to Worcester.
2. The train runs about a mile South of Great Malvern station to Peachfield Rd, where the driver can change ends (again !) and take his train (via a set of points) to the "right side", then return to Great Malvern station. (Just as the 1519 arrival from Westbury does at Warminster to become the 1528 to, guess where ?, Great Malvern).

In either case the driver has to change ends and the train changes direction - and he has 11 minutes to do it in !

This started as a light-hearted post about not having to have a reserved seat with an advance ticket - for Zoe's benefit !   ::)

I think the trains have to run up to Malvern Wells to turn-back.

They don't go back "wrong road" to Worcester.

I you are going from, say, Bath to Malvern, I would reserve a backward seat, and change seats at Gloucester (when the train will be less full).