Great Western Coffee Shop

hi im new here
one thing what disgusts me is also a big topic often discussed
overcrowding
i got a cross country to reading one sunday it had 3 or 4 carriages one first class and people were standing in the toilets yet they were STILL SHOVING PEOPLE ON!

why do we as british people come across so tame that the most we`ll do is write a column in a paper complaining? WHY CANT WE ACT
WHY CANT WE DEMAND HEALTH AND SAFETY TO INVESTIGATE
they have no problem sticking their noses in everything else.. so either they are getting a pay off by the train companies to keep their mouthes shut... or i dont know what!

at the end of the day how is it legal to shove people in conditions deemed unfit for animals!

people lets act now and demand these companies are heavily fined because we should not pay sky high prices just to be lucky get standing room in a toilet!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430760/Packed-trains-safer-crashes-claim-rail-chiefs.html

A report in 2007

In a crash you are less likely to sustain I injury in a crowd. The Kings Cross bomb on the tube shows this, some people within metres of the bomber led comparativly unscaved.

Welcome to the forum plejaren  :)

yes but an article writen two years ago in an online paper does not help the fact that health and safety will investigate resturants on street corners right away
but if its something which affects the lives of millions of people paying millions ... they are in no hurry

i dont get why british people lose all their values

any sense of standing up for themselves or their own interests, they are reluctant to do so

this is what made britain great in history... the `standing up and saying no i will not put up with this`

The network is over crowded no denying that, maybe should just take a Eurostar approach and just book all seats, and once all seats booked that's it nobody else? But then you take away the idea of a turn up and go railway.

Just look at the peak from Paddington and use Reading as an example, despite the fact a train goes to Reading every 10mins or though, people just get next available, Reading is a station I personally use a lot, and I've watched trains arrive one after the other from Paddington and the amount of people the come off is immense.

I just don't see any quick fix to overcrowding, it's a problem that will continue for years yet.

Yes: unfortunately, unlike taxis, buses or aeroplanes, there are no specific limits on the number of passengers that can be allowed onto a train.  The price we have to pay for the flexibility of 'walk up' train services is indeed, rather too often, overcrowding.

On the other hand, rail travel is a darn'd sight safer than road travel, just for example, if comparing casualties per year?

Chris  ::)

Hi, Plejaren, and welcome to the forum.

I have to agree that the common answer is that health and safety doesn't lay specific limits down, but you WILL find that the train crew exercise their own discression and will refuse boarding after a certain point.   It is, though "health and SAFETY" rather than "health and COMFORT" and where you have a service that's overloaded, anyone can choose not to travel if they wish but rather wait for the next train.

Having got the official line out of the way, and offered an olive branch of sympathy to the TOC who cannot know (but only forecast) the number of passengers for any particular service, I'm going to say that this forum was formed in protest and indeed it continues to be a forum that both informs and provides a place where protest can be stated.    At the same time remembering that the changes that protest seeks must be practical ones, and if we press our point to the stage where there is action taken, we need to continue to work with some of the parties we protest against as they implement the changes - so we should stay on good terms.

If you were travelling Cross Country to Reading, that would have been from / via Southampton or Birmingham - so you may not be familiar with Cardiff - Portsmouth, nor with the Great Western Sleeper from Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance.   They are both examples of how protest has had an effect, although you're also likely to find the powers that be claiming that they made enlightened decisions and it wasn't the protests.

In the case of Cardiff - Portsmouth, 3 car trains were cut back to 2 cars when FGW took over. Overcrowding was rife, and protests abounded.  A number of groups, the press, etc protested and after a time plans were changed an an extra carriage was added on.   I travelled on the line last Friday, a 3 car train NESTing (nearly every seat taken) and it would have been very uncomfortable as a 2 coach train.

The sleeper service was for the axe.  Ah - but the axe never fell; there are now 2 sets of sleeper coaches and 4 locomotives responsible for maintaining the service and all the extra publicity brought a real boost to the service use too.

Overcrowding on Cross Country is / has been noted.  Not my area of expertise, but some extra 125 units have been put on their lines to relieve some of it, and train formations are selected to have the longest trains on the busiest "diagrams".  But on the other hand, franchise bidders are encouraged to do the job with a minimum of stock which leaves little / no extra flexibility at times of unusual busyness.   Gone is the MO (Monday Only) train from Cardiff to Westbury, with the coaches sitting in the siding until the form the FO (Friday Only) service back again. Ironically, health and safety has made trains so much more expensive in the first place that they are now just too expensive for the luxury of having them around to run just at peak times of the week. (The financial arrangement of leasing rolling stock has compounded it - another story).

So - go ahead and protest.  I certainly do.  But look to the long term goal, and protest for something realistic.  "They" will certainly take a while to pick up on a new campaign ... "they" will hope that it will go away ... then "they" look for any holes in the campaign, like "expensive", "impractical", "unproven", "causes other problems", "minority cause" ... then "they" try to say "not my problem, ask someone else" and "we can't do that - it would set a precedent".  But I'm an optimist - I have seen it done, and even by the British in that most Conservative part of the country - the South West!

I think it is a legitimate aspiration for there to be no standing passengers on true long distance services, but the problem with some recent media campaigns (such as the Evening Standard's) is that you cannot run a short distance commuter service on a no standing basis, and you certainly couldn't run the London Underground as a no standing service, as you'd need about 90 tph through the tunnels!  LU style layouts with the majority of capacity as standees are also coming into use on inner suburban trains, such as the LO 378s, with their fully longitudinal seating. I can see them being the choice on further metro type services as well, such as the Merseyrail new fleet in a few years time. 

So if inner suburban Metros and LU have mostly standing by design, and long distance are fully seated, what the heck do you do with the intermediate level services, such as XC - always full of midlands commuters.  Or what about the long distance service where the first stop is a major commuter destination?

You can apply pick up or set down restrictions. This is done on most WCML services that stop at Milton Keynes in the peaks for instance. In the future, maybe Crossrail use by commuters could be forced by making Reading a pick up only stop in the peak down direction, and set down only in the peak up direction.  Would the majority of pax be happy with this - eg you can't stand on the HST, but you can definitely stand on Crossrail, and LU when you eventually change?

It's a nightmare - but one thing is for sure, Health and Safety are always going to allow at least some standing on trains IMO. Reducing it to comfortable levels is the best you can hope for, unless ALL trains become subject to compulsory reservations, or perhaps they only allow the correct number of pax to board at the departure terminus - imagine the chaos at the barriers though when they shut showing 'all seats taken'! 

Can't see the general public accepting that for their daily travel to and from work...

Paul

Have a look at Part 5 of this video from Network South East, set at Charing Cross in the early 90s before the automatic ticket barriers were installed.

At this time, there were platform gates which staff closed when the train was full. I wonder what they do now?

Fast forward to 5 mins 30 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkaINEKwW2Y&feature=response_watch

Look at those crowds! And yet it seems like Kent commuters put up with it in the 90s...

PS: Listen to that woman at 6 mins 8 seconds who shouts "open that side gate for God's sake!" It looks like chaos. :o

Health & Safety? Ha - what can they do?

You mention Britain is no longer great. (which I agree)

However, isn't it health and safety that has degraded our society (at its core!) so you are suggesting using h&s...  :P

It's a debate that there is no simple answer to really, I remember one woman saying to me a couple of years ago at a major event when she had come of the train "That train was dangerously overcrowded before it even arrived into Teignmouth, my children could have been crushed", my answer to her was "If you thought that before you got on the train then why did YOU put your children in a position of danger by boarding the train?" she didn't have an answer, and that is it really, if the train is crammed you have a choice to get on and suffer it or wait for the next train, not always possible where infrequent services run but you still have the choice! i'm sure if all services were compulsory reserve like many European countries then there would be uproar then aswell! XC are one TOC that really does need to sort things out though, 3 std class coaches on most of their trains is unacceptable, particularly when running commuter services in and out of Britains second city!

I agree and disagree.

Britain is still great! I would not want to live anywhere else!

But H&S is degrading our country fast. It, along with political correctness/EU regulations threatens to destroy our country and way of life.

Indeed Britain could still be Great. It's not just Health & Safety, Human Rights but common sense. Read on:

"Common Sense

Today, we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth
records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will
be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

   Knowing when to come in out of the rain;             
   Why the early bird gets the worm;
Life isn't always fair;
   and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense, lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired
for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion!!!!!????

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust.  His wife, Discretion.  His daughter, Responsibility. His son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;

   I Know My Rights
   I Want It Now
   Someone Else Is To Blame
   I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing."

Excellent.

thanks for all the replies
another thing i hate is how theres no priority whatsoever
so say ive spent 60 on a ticket from birmingham to southampton...
and a person whos spent 4 pounds on a 20 minute journey to coventry pushes ahead of me when the train pulls up.. he gets a seat and i have to stand

:( :(

Hahaha, sorry the irony of this is, another thread talks about the benefits of first come first serve (by eradicating reservations)

Thanks for pointing out why it is a silly idea.

We need to do something about overcrowding and passengers are right to get angy about it and hassle the TOCs/Government/MPs etc

BUT

Please please please can we not try and make this a Health and Safety issue.  Firstly- there is no evidence that overcrowded trains are dangerous as opposed to uncomfortable (if you want to disagree with this then you will need to cite some evidence) and Secondly, we all know what will happen if it becomes a H&S issue - the TOCs can't magic extra traisn from thin air nor the money to pay for them so all they will do is make trains reversation only or continue their policy of pricing people off. 

My eldest dughter often reserves a seat to travel from Cheltenham to Newcastle and almost as often can't get to her seat until after Birmingham, so reservatins don't always work.
And how many seat reservations do you see where the seat holder never turns up?

i hate to be a doomsday monger

i know there have been a couple of incidents of people fainting

but it is going to take that one big incident
such as a major crash
or a mini hillsborough type disaster

for something to be done about it

untill then, sadly train operating companies dont care

all they care about is
running minimal carriages
minimal staff
minimal ticket office hours
maximum passengers
maximum fare increases


which all contribute to
more savings and money to them

and little consideration for the people who pay their mortgages

Isn't all business cut-throat? (even though the railways should be public service, the government seems to think they should pay their way)

The health and safety implications of overcrowding on trains were the subject of an extensive piece of work by the Rail Safety and Standards Board a few years ago.

This thorough research concluded that overcrowding was an issue of comfort rather than safety. I would humbly suggest that it might be worth looking at this document if you want to know more about the implications of overcrowding.


http://www.rssb.co.uk/pdf/reports/research/T307%20Health%20and%20safety%20effects%20of%20crowding.pdf (http://www.rssb.co.uk/pdf/reports/research/T307%20Health%20and%20safety%20effects%20of%20crowding.pdf)

with all due respect though.....

surely overcrowding now is far far more an issue than even a few years ago

Hmm. I think there are two aspects to that, plejaren.

Yes, there are clearly more people travelling on trains now than there were a few years ago - but with the refurbishment (and I'm posting this with particular reference to the FGW area), there are many more seats and more effective use of the standing space available?

And all these new seats, windows and safety equipment have also been upgraded, to modern safety standards - so, on balance, I'd say this would probably lead to the same conclusions being reached now?

I think some, if not most, overcrowding is related to whether the train infront actually runs.

I travel home from my Parents most Sundays on FGW and XC. Generally I don't have any problems with overcrowding, unless XC do something stupid at Bristol like cancel the service thats an hour ahead of mine or terminate it at Bristol. Then all the pax are loaded onto the train I get. Then 8 Carriages of pax are loaded into a 4 Carriage train. The results:

All remaining First Class seats are occupied
Access to the shop is impossible
Nasty looks from fellow pax when you attempt to access the toilet because they have to move
The seat you just vacated to go and use the toilet is promptly stolen from you
Upon return from the toilet an arguement commences over the stolen seat... ::) :P

Don't you mean 16 carriages loaded into a 4 carriage train? ::) ;D

by the way
somebody please tell me that these famous train crowding in japan clip is a joke?

i do not believe this is real....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwbPdF5dIgQ

replies please?

The age of the RSSB report (which was published in 2005) is irrelevant; it considers the issues surrounding overcrowding on a given train. These are exactly the same now as they were then. Given that I am a scientist by training and trade I'm afraid I give a great deal more credence to a properly conducted and referenced piece of research such as this than to anecdotal tabloid press stories about people fainting.

The stories about Japanese railways are absolutely true (and the Japanese railways do indeed employ staff as "pushers" to squeeze more people in).

Remember that this occurs in a nation whose railways are frequently held up as an example for the rest of the world to follow. Rather puts our British definition of "over crowding" into context.

well then if that video is real that is disgusting
that is conditions which even cattle wouldnt be put in on the way to a slaughterhouse!!

i am disgusted if thats how they treat people in japan

human rights anyone?!!!!

Actually I found that quite horrific.  As we all know, I am no PC doo gooder type person BUT - this week of all weeks - when I was in the upper stand of the leppings lane end of hillsborough, that was not pleasant.  I could have been in the lower had we not decided last minute to get a birds eye view when we bought the tickets.

Was 13 at the time - I thought I had deal with it until the media insisted on shoving it in my face this week

Mookiemoo, I'm very sorry to hear that you were there at Hillsborough at the time, and that you are thus so affected by the reminders of that sad event now.

Our thoughts must be with all the families and friends of those who died there.

Chris.  :(

i thought that video was a joke

if its real

im sorry but im disgusted

the fat cats of that rail network probably sitting in their offices puffing on their cigars with people squashed into deadly conditions

that is appalling

I lost three class mates.

The high school I was at had quadrangles inside the building - it was a figure of 8

One was turned over into a memorial

I personally helped (although I was 13 so I dont know how much help I was but I was trying) pulled several people out of the lower tier.   

Irony was I am an everton fan - the only time I stepped inside anfield was in the period after where I layed my everton scarf on the terraces.  I was only there because my family are liverpudlians and they needed me to be an extra eye on some of the younger members (1989 - 13 year olds were one year off baby sitting age remember).  I was bribed to be there cos I liked football. 

I see that Japan video and think what the people inside must be feeling.

To this day I have claustrophobia.

well

when people realise
that governments

companies

none of them give a damn about the people or their customers

its money money money

we are irelevant to them

A few of the night owls may have noticed that this topic was temporarily locked during the night, while under 'moderator review'.  I am just about to re-open it after posting this note, but reserve the right to relock if need be.

There are times when posts / descriptions of situations quite take my breath away.  The description of what has happened to someone that I can only imagine (and then only imaging very poorly, without any similar experiences) - and that's the case with the member who was at Hillsborough.   We wish that these things never happened and there was nothing there to talk about and describe afterwards, but as they have happened they should be talked about, and we are happy - where there is even a seed of relevance (and there's much much more than that here!) for them to be hosted on this forum.

Yet having welcomed such posts, the emotions all around are raised too and there is, pehaps, a temptattion for some people to look to make political capital out of the situation, and on occasions to do so without thought for the feelings of the person who was in the situation.  One of the things that new members agree to when they sign up is to keep away from the 'personal' level (I am paraphrasing there) and just occasionally - as here - we need to gently remind people of that.

I am also reminded how different in structure we are to commercial organisations:


The Coffee Shop is not a company, and that comment (which was not in any way aimed at us) helps to show just how different to that stereotype we are here.  The Coffee Shop is here for its members - number have crept up on what started as a 'protest' board even though FGW - with a couple of exceptions - have put much right.  With that customer service approach, members are relevant, the moderator team does give a damn ... and we thank all our members (now and in the future) for helping us maintain the toughly discussed but friendly approach

i wasnt slaging this website off
i was saying that in response to the japan horrific video of them shoving people on a train around 500 per cent over capacity.....

that can not possibly be by a company who cares about its customers

Why not.  They are helping their customers to get on the train of their choice.  The reason people accept travelling like this is that the service is so reliable that they know they will not be in such conditions for long and also they will not get stuck in between stations in a broken down train.

personally, I'd always squeeze onto an overcrowded train (even if it was crowed to Japanese levels) rather than wait for the next one.  This is because I value my time over my comfort and don't think that there is any Health and Safety risk to me in doing so.  I am an adult and it is my desision.  If I change my mind, I'd get off at the next stop. 

I perfectly understand that other people may take a different view of the issue and act differently, but please lets not use H&S or Human Rights arguements to deny me the right to be responsible for myself and take my own decison about my comfort and safety.

Totally agree, there isn't enough Health & safety input into today's risk-ridden world. The BBC have the right idea !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1170475/Emergency-service-BBC-calls-ambulance-tyre-change---barmy-health-safety.html

(PS: for anyone who isn't sure and takes this the wrong way  - this is a joke !)  ;) ;) ;)

The reason why Japan does that is its population density.

There is no other way of keeping the country moving. They have to pack as many people onto their trains as possible.

The next one will be just as crowded.

There's also a small matter of different cultures - remember that what one culture/country finds unacceptable may be regarded as perfectly OK in another.

We shouldn't impose our views on others - a point the US might care to remember from time to time.

Actually - on a lighter note - and I apologise for "lowering the tone" I just cant find overcrowding acceptable .......


I wonder if this is the reason behind some decidedly odd behaviour patters in early 2008.

When the 1921 was regularly turbo-stuted from an adelante I used to sit in the sloe bar at pad and wait to see what came in - often a two car 165 - the platform was a rugby scrum.

I'd sit there and wait for the 2021 which got me home almost when I had to leave again - but it was normally a deserted booked 16- the acomodation was only slightly better than the 165 but ........ the thought of trying to fight my way through that was not nice

completly agree
its like being shoved up against a wall
not pleasant

you dont know how unpleasant being shoved up against a wall is - you cant even begin to imagine it

The Japanese video is likely to be 100% genuine - my other half lived in Japan for a year - I sent him the link and asked - "is this anywhere near real?" 

First thing out of his mouth was - "yeah - the guys in the uniform are paid pushers - I've been pushed several times"

But then I guess, the force that can be applied by one man and 20-30 people is nothing compared to the combined force of several thousand

havent been `shoved up against a wall before`

thank god lol

was an expression

havent been `shoved up against a wall before`

I'm told a G20 demonstration is a good place to experience this........