Great Western Coffee Shop

Details & reaction contained in the link below.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1319.msg3712#msg3712

I cannot see this working at unstaffed stations hereabouts.

In the Southeastern area the machines generally supplement a booking office, and provide relief at busy times. However, passengers still have the option to speak with a human being to pick their way through the over-complex minefield of fares, peak time restrictions and travel conditions to obtain the correct ticket for their journey. Whilst the new ticket machines are slightly smarter (they in theory won't offer non-valid tickets such as Cheap Day Returns until the appropriate time) they still offer a bewildering array of tickets for the same journey. This is before we even start to consider accessibility issues for partially sighted users for example.

On the basis that I don't think others should travel free when I've paid, I'd have no objection to the Permit to Travel system being used, provided the machines are maintained and operate quickly enough to clear a queue of passengers in the peak.

I personally feel the 'Permit to travel' system is much fairer than ladelling the 'Don't have a ticket? YOU'LL PAY A FINE, YOU CRIMINAL!!' system on, which FGW is doing. While I agree it will lower fare evasion quite a bit, I personally, as a fare paying passenger find it intimidating and will be vary wary to get on the train should the ticket machine not be working. I personally would have kept the old system, and made sure the conductors on the train were vigilant in collecting fares when the office is shut.

I've got a four page briefing for staff about the Penalty Fares to be introduced on 31st March.  These are not secret and FGW will be trying to communicate the info to all passengers over the next month.  But you may find it easier to read it here than on a windy station platform in the cold and the wet :( 

It's a four page brief so I'll try and pick out the salient points and if you want to know more, just ask and I'll try to answer your questions.  Italics indicate a direct quote from the briefing.

Penalty Fares are intended to encourage passengers to buy a ticket before they board our services.
New areas to be covered are basically commuter routes centred on Reading, Bristol and Exeter.  Most stations will be included but not all.  Some are too small to have a ticket machine and if you travel from those stations you will be exempt from the scheme.

A Penalty Fare is due when a passenger boards a Penalty Fares Train within a Penalty Fares area without having previously paid their fare OR when a passenger is found in a Compulsory Ticket Area without having paid for a ticket.  (A small number of our stations are designated Compulsory Ticket Areas. It does not matter whether the station is gated or not).

How much is the penalty?  The penalty covers the distance from the station where you boarded to the next station STOP.  You would be penalised ^20 (or twice the single fare (whichever is greater)) to that next stop PLUS the undiscounted single fare from THAT stop to your final destination.  You can travel from a station outside the Penalty Fares Area to one within it and you won't be penalised.  If you are travelling from a Penalty Fares station to one outside you'll only have to pay if you are caught inside the PF Area.

OK - Who's going to be brave enough to demand ^20 from you when it's raining, the train's late and shortformed and you are squeezed in the toilet with three other people?  Not me, that's for sure.  Only an Authorised Penalty Fares Collector with an official badge and special training can do so  ::)- not the conductors or ticket sellers.  They may be checking on the train or at ticket barriers.  What happens if you do board a train without a ticket and ask the conductor to sell you one?  Well, if there's no Authorised Collector around, the conductor CAN sell you a ticket but has to issue a verbal warning that you WOULD have been penalised if there was somebody to do it.

Two relevant points to consider.  For the first month (April) penalties will not be issued - just warnings.  But be aware of this nasty one: If you receive a Penalty Fare you have to give your name and address which will be registered on a database.  That database will be consulted by phone whenever somebody is penalised and if it is a subsequent offence you will not be issued with more penalty fares.  The intention is to prosecute for the offence of fare evasion which is a criminal offence.  We actually prosecute around 50 people every week

Well, I hope that helps prepare you for what to expect come 31st March.  Please don't blame me or my colleagues, we don't like it any more than you do. I don't like the way that it dehumanises life.  If you have a bit of trouble (i.e running late, car wouldn't start, kids playing up) it'd be nice to know that somebody might help instead of turning you into a criminal.  Oh well - we'd better blame the fare dodgers, I guess.  Sorry for the glum news :-\

So, will passengers details be taken if they get PF'd during April?

The briefing says that only warnings will be given, so I would say not.

They have installed ONE fasticket at Trowbridge, but isn't on yet, let alone in Service

Official information on the introduction of Penalty Fares has now been posted on the FGW website.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=1042 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=1042)

There is also a downloadable PDF map which shows which stations are exempt.

As a regular (i.e. often) but irregular (i.e. no particular route most of the time) traveller, I'm going to have one heck of a job knowing when I have to search out a machine and when I have no chance of finding one and should just get on the machine.  Will ALL stations be marked well, in and out of the zones?

I note that Swindon and Didcot are both in penalty fare zones but the line between them is NOT - what is the significance of this exclusion?  Can anyone explain?

You can see that they have not put fasttickets at stations that are likely to have them vandilised though! Look at Weston Milton & Stapleto RD especially

As of the end of the last working day of March, the majority of ticket machines between Bristol and Taunton appear to remain out of commission.

I can only assume a peek at the great black shrouds covering them all will convince guards that the passenger had no opportunity to buy before boarding!

I passed Oldfield Park today, and right next to the entrance to the walkway of Platform 1 was a big, ominous, yellow and black sign:

WARNING!
^20 FINE

I mean it's all well and good doing this, but I feel it's scare tactics gone mad and will drive many people away. Couldn't they just have put friendlier looking signs on the platform?

Still only got 2 RPI's in the wilts area!


Personally, I think if a PF scheme is going to work, all stations need to be under the same rules, like SWT, EVERY station now excpet West Of Salisbury is PF zone, which is how to do it, not make half the stations exempt

Right, we only have a few weeks left before this is proper penalty fares (with all 4 on train RPI's!) & we are npw just under a month after the 'big switch on' of the 'fastickets' but how many of them work? So, when you are on you travels, if you see 1, lets us now wether it is working or even switched on & we can see how orginsied this is going to be!

I will get the ball rolling

Trowbridge - Out of Service
Warminser (P1 & 2) - Out of Service

I like the way there's a huge sign at Trowbridge that says "Tickets over the Bridge" (or words to that effect) just a few yards from the only ticket machine.  If I were a newcomer to Trowbridge, followed the directions, failed to find anywhere to buy my ticket would they still penalise me?

More than likely

Guess what, it is still not working & I am guessing that PF's are now inforce

Only machine at Filton is on platform 1 and wearing a very nice black plastic bag.

Some engineers were playing with it a couple of weeks ago, but nothing since. Were are all just waiting for the locals to start playing with it.  ;D

There is nothing left of the plastic carrier bag which was the only protection for the trailing cable which was installed for the second Trowbridge machine, and the armoured cable is slowly being unravelled.

Kept forgetting to check wether the bag was still there! This PF stuff has gone up the creek so to speak, allready!

Highbridge and Burnham appeared to be working last Friday evening. Interested to see if it's still working after a weekend of attention by the locals!

O NO! They have installed a new machine under the P1 Waiting area, which..Wait for it...WORKS!

Well done FGW, but passengers can still play the 'bone idol' passenger I guess because the P2 1 does not work still!

Under the waiting area on P1 though, I would like to see how long that lasts

Both working now, however you can't get the SWT Super Off Peak RTNS! Out of intrest (1 for Whistleblower) can you do them on the onboard machines?

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/8e55de5045c49437?hl=en

Posted on ukrailway this morning. This coming after The Times highlighting SWTs clamp down. Anyone else able to report similar experiences?

The bolshy station staff at Bath have obviously got tired of selling
tickets to honest travellers from intermediate stations to Weston
Super Mare.

If the local automatic ticket machine is out of order (which they are
regularly, thanks to the braindead morons that pass for teenagers
these days), then a potential traveller cannot purchase a ticket. So,
what usually happens? We board the train and wait to buy our ticket
from the guard. If the guard does not turn up? We get off at Bath and
buy the ticket there.

Not any more. Several travellers have been told in no uncertain terms,
that if we board a train without a ticket for any reason whatsoever,
we will be counted as criminals/fare dodgers and legal action will be
taken.

I cannot think of another policy (short of physical abuse by railway
staff) that is more guaranteed to make the residents of North Somerset
take to the roads, and never travel by train ever again.

Well done FGW. You have cured your over-crowding problem.

ENDS

Well this is tripe as if the machine is out of order then the station has no ticket issuing facilities in which case you are perfectly entitled to board a train without a ticket. Then if you dont see a guard if the trains full and standing or they are work shy etc your first oppurtunity is on arrival at your destination.

Just out of interest am fairly sure no penalty fares have been issued within the recently extended penalty fare zone??

If the ticket machine isn't working, you can buy your ticket on train or failing that at your destination station, (however surley you should try & find the guard, he isn't that hard to find, as he is the 1 with a ticket machine round his neck!)  In theory without being PF'd, HOWEVER if you wish to excess your ticket (as 1 example in the times stated) then NCoC state you must excess before boarding the train & they can charge the full fare, as technically you don't have a valid ticket

Theory and practise are somewhat different at times ... I could point back to similar incidents reported to me at first hand in the past, and indeed one personal experience.

I know that I, for one, would think twice before travelling without a ticket even it was within the rules for me so to do.   From Melksham, if I don't see a member of the train crew within the first five minutes, I seek them out before Trowbridge / Chippenham, and (as on one occasion) when joining a train which is in the penalty zone but has no working machine, I will approach the conductor as I join and point this out to him / her, asking him / her to issue a ticket as soon as station duties have been completed.

Two concerns that I have, one is if you get a guard who is having a bad day and refuses to believe your excuse that the ticket machine isnt working. Second is you turn up and the machine says 'cash only, no cards'. Say you are travelling quite a distance and don't have much cash on you and want to pay by card. I am all for revenue protection and all I ask for is a bit of flexability from the train company when someone is genuinely endeavouring to purchase a ticket but the ticket machine either isn't working or is only partcially working. They are after all there to provide a service and they have the means in the form of a ticket machine either on the train or at the destination to collect the fare.

I guess all this heavy handed approach to fares is increasing by companies like FGW and SWT because of the huge premiums that they are having to pay during the life of their franchises. Like I said, I am a strong supporter of going after those who don't pay for their journey but don't put fear into those who do but arent always able to due to a problem with the ticket machine or long queues at the ticket office.

Bodmin Parkway in Cornwalls TVM suffered damage by people trying to break in. They failed just leaving scars to the base of the machine. But fear not, they returned and instead of damaging it, they took the whole bloody thing! They may survive around Bristol, but Bodmins has been stolen!!

The whole thing!  :o

The lengths people will go to just for a few quid. I take it the guard will happily issue tickets to passengers when they say "couldn't buy a ticket at the station cos the machine has been nicked".

Better check to see if it's appeared on ebay!

Two ticket machines at Yate, one on each platform, aren't we lucky? And there's talk of a third being installed as the machines can't issue tickets quick enough at peak times so many have to board without tickets.

Both machines have been installed facing the direct sunlight so no matter what time of year they are both virtually unusable if the sun is shining. Last week I managed to select the ticket that I wanted but couldn't work out why my debit card was being rejected. The screen was probably telling me but I couldn't see the screen very well. Come to think of it, the machine at Filton Abbey Wood faces due south so if that machine is ever brought into use passengers there will have the same problem. Don't they ever think of these things when they plan the installation?

Flexibility and consistency amongst conductors is needed. Some make you feel like a criminal, some are only too happy to sell you a ticket while on many trains that I travel on there is absolutely no attempt to check tickets at all.

Insider's take on the Penalty Fare / Ticketless Travel issue (link below.)
http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/08/fares-fair.html

If the PF scheme is going to work then FGW's conductors need to be more consistent in their approach to people without tickets. Some treat you like criminals and give you the third degree while some are only too willing to sell you a ticket even if the ticket machine is working and the station you boarded at is staffed!

Wouldnt surprise me if you board a train with an ex-Wessex conductor that they would happily sell you a ticket on the train just like in Wessex days. Whereas on a IC service with original FGW conductors who weren't used to issuing many tickets you could find it much harder. I could be wrong though.

I was actually indirectly referring to ex-Wessex conductors. Mind you with the severe over-crowding I'm currently experiencing, now worse in the late afternoons due to the school holidays, ticket checks are often not even attempted.  :(

If a station is unstaffed, then the passenger must be able to buy the CHEAPEST ticket at the first available place. If this means it's their destination because a guard can't check tickets due to knackered machine / overcrowding / frequency of stops, then it still applies. The cheapest ticket would include railcard discounts (if valid at the time of day) and any local offers / groupsave or whatnot tickets.

How can you dodge a fare you cannot buy?

* I'm not overly familiar with the route, but I'm guessing the train goes from Weston through to Bath direct, via Bristol Temple Meads. I'd have to check whether the company can in theory insist you alight the train at Bristol (taking the assumption Bristol Temple Meads is always fully staffed) to buy the ticket. I would consider this to be highly unfair though if it was the case.

Northbound services from Weston generally run via Temple Meads on their way to Filton Abbey Wood , where they either terminate , or continue towards Cheltenham and sometimes beyond. The odd Virgin Cross Country service also calls at Weston on its way to Temple Meads , Parkway , Cheltenham & the Midlands. This means that you usually have to change at Temple Meads for Bath. However , there are some direct Weston - Bristol - Bath - London services.

By the way , thanks for your initial insights , and welcome to the forum.

At Dorking Deepdene, there is a ticket machine, which has actually been situated on the pavement (I wonder if special permission is needed for that), as you need to walk up 30 steps or so to the platform. Alas, I would say that half the time it is "Out of Service".

At Dorking West, there isn't a machine.

I was curious to learn why the fare quoted to me on the train was less that than the ticket machine quoted. It was explained to me that some of the machines that the conductors carry are the old ones, which haven't had their fares updated!

I had the (dis)pleasure of using one of these blasted machines today.

I arrived at Oldfield Park 15 minutes before the train was due. Great, I thought, plenty of time to buy a ticket. How wrong I was!
Approaching it, I thought it was off/broken because the screen looked blank. On closer inspection, I realised that it was on, but the screen was so dim I could barely see a thing. Sadly for me it was a sunny day! So shielding with one hand from the sun, I somehow managed to navigate through the menus and find Clifton Down. It was so difficult to see anything, I had to squint my eyes to read the text and find the tiny 'railcard' button to add my young persons card to.

So, the price was ^3.75. Fine, I thought. Pay ^4, 25p change and I'll have my tickets. Wrong. I put in ^4, a message came up "Amount Tendered Too High" and my money dropped back into the tray. There was NO SIGN AT ALL that the machine did not give change. Not on the machine or as far as I could see on the screens. Great, now about 8 minutes before the train arrives!

So, I struggled through the process again. Thank goodness I had change! Got up to ^3.70. Needed a 5p, so I fumbled everywhere in my wallet until I found one. Just about to put it in and I saw "Transaction ended" or something similar and once again my money was rejected. That was in about 30 seconds from when I started to put in the cash.

Third time, and I was giving up if it happened again. I got the tickets at last, but it shouldn't have been so hard. Covered in sweat, I picked up the tickets and boarded the standing room only 1-car 150 as it was just pulling into the station

If the guy I know was in the ticket office, it would have taken just 20 seconds to get the ticket. This took 15 minutes. Buying tickets should not be stressful at all, but this sure was.  I feel myself as a more experienced traveller- imagine if someone with little experience tried this! In my view, they should get rid of all these horrible things and have stations like Oldfield Park staffed until 6pm daily.

I will be sending an e-mail to FGW, as it was totally unacceptable.

I put Graz's struggle to FOSBR , and Joe Patrick has offered the following opinion :

In the former West Midlands county , the PTE funds opening of almost all stations from first train in the morning , to last in the evening. This results in stations such as Small Heath and Tyseley , which each have usage smaller than all stations south of Clifton Down , being staffed.

The machine was badly damaged by vandals (who didn't get into it!) but wasn't stolen! it was taken away by engineers as it was quite badly damaged, the theives went to great lengths to rob it but to no avail! they do seem quite vandal proof, so far!

I share the views with Joe Patrick, Lee. I know stations like Avoncliff and Freshford shouldn't be staffed because they are so small, but Oldfield Park, and Keynsham should definitely be. There are already ticket offices on these stations- it won't cost the earth to have them staffed throughout the day and would probably encourage more customers. Why do we always seem to be losing out when it comes to service like this?

Here are some photos of my trip taken with my mobile (I won't post any more as it would make this thread go a bit too off topic!)

A lovely floral display at Oldfield Park that some people put a lot of effort into:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd13/GrazzaD/oldfieldpark.jpg

Crowds on the 1-car Weymouth-Cardiff Ctl service, every seat was taken (Sorry- a bit blurred):

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd13/GrazzaD/crowds.jpg

The offending machine that caused me so much grief:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd13/GrazzaD/ticketmachine.jpg
(Just noticed it says tickets and CHANGE at the bottom- yeah, right!)

Don't worry about going a bit off topic - especially if you're a regular.   I know I do from time to time, and I welcome it and will continue to do so up to a point at which it seriosuly diluted the board or caused offence (But then you weren't going to advertise "Get Rich Quick" schemes, were you, Graz?).

I note the crowds and I remember the horrors on the line at Easter - denied boardings, etc.  This weekend I'm fixed firmly in Melksham and not making any pleasure trips!

An interesting Oldfield Park ticket machine background link.
http://oldfieldparktrains.blogspot.com/2007/04/ticket-machine.html

On the machines, one of the biggest farces' is you can't do Group Save

Or local railcards! In defence of these machines, they are very useful to COMPLIMENT the booking office at busy stations, particularly when some old granny is trying to book tickets for ten years in the future, and at some stations are very well used. At Truro FGW use Assistant Ticket Examiners between trains to "queue bust" at busy times, maybe something they should do more of using spare Conductors/Train managers!

It is fact that you can buy a ticket on the train without penalty if your method of payment is not accepted by the TVM, in particular I refer to Rail Travel Vouchers and Travel Tokens but I wouldn't be sure if a cheque backed by a cheque guanrantee card would be accepted, perhaps someone in the know would oblige with a definitve answer in this particular instance.

Thats the other 1 I was thinking of!

Very interesting point! according to FGW's "buy before you board" leaflet, if you cannot purchase the ticket you require from the machine "you should purchase a ticket for at least part of your journey", but this contradicts the Penalty fares rules which say that if you travel beyond the validity of your ticket you are liable to a penalty fare??

I must say that I am a supporter of the Penalty fares scheme in principal, however, I think that only staffed stations should be in the scheme and not stations that just have a TVM. It would be far better to have "PERTIS" (Permit to travel) machines at these stations so that the passenger just basicly buys a voucher which is part exchanged for a ticket from the guard on the train or at the barrier at destination station. Most other operators who operate a PF scheme have this system in place.

I think it would be an awful lot easier. Stick ^3 in, pay ^1 to the conductor with change! No need to navigate through complicated screens either.

An interesting guide (link below.)
http://www.theticketcollector.co.uk/wordpress/2007/09/20/no-ticket-false-details-given/

No, there isn't..... at least not at Oldfield Park. Are FGW breaking the rules?

So your pockets will be searched for coins each time you get a Permit to Travel ticket that doesn't cover the full fare?  ::) Say you didn't know the exact price of the ticket?

Honestly, the amount of strict rules and regulations that have come in nowadays is enough to put people off travel. It's almost as if you feel like a criminal just for taking a train ride!

Oldfield Park should have two ticket machines as anyone travelling in the Bath direction without a ticket has to walk all the way down quite a long walkway to platform 1, buy the ticket then back up the ramp again, over the bridge and down to platform 2. Not very convenient. Of course if there is a queue for buying tickets because a Bristol train is due you may miss your train on the other platform trying to buy a ticket!

But of course the new extended Penalty Fares area is another FGW shambles and none have been issued?? Am I correct??

The ticket machine on the down platform has had its plastic (perspex) screen split diagonally from top left to bottom right for about 4/5ths of the screen diagonal. Once I tried to get a ticket to and it would not accept the letter W as this letter was underneath the split of which one part of the perspex was trapped under the other part as the split was not a straight vertical split. The last time I saw the machine, the split screen was still in place but it looked as if someone had prised the trapped bit and both sides of the split were flat and it would accept the letter W but when one got to the buy ticket screen a message was coming up "Card Transaction Only".

FGW are busy installing Automatic Ticket Machines at a lot of locations, Ex Wessex stations mainly, however I choose not to use them for several reasons,

1, They don't offer small Group discounts (Group3 or Group 4).

2. They Now offer Tickets for Tomorrow BUT THESE are PEAK TICKETS, Great valve if traveling off Peak!!!

3. They give lone Children Railcard discounts??????

4. They DON'T always offer the Cheapest fare, as a Booking office SHOULD.

They only offer Peak tickets for tomorrow so that regular commuters don't have to queue up at the busiest times! if they offered off peak tickets then everybody would buy them from the machine the day before and use them the next day in peak time, didn't think of that?? No, didn't think so! They also don't give lone children railcard discounts, it wont let you past the payment screen, and how do they not offer the cheapest fare for the journey?? whenever i've put anything in to one of those machines it's offered the full range of tickets availiable for that time of day?? The only thing they don't do is offer group save for some reason.

The only problem I have with them is that they don't offer Day Rangers.
My local station is often unstaffed due to sickness so I pick up my ticket the first time I get off (the staff usually can't find it on train or don't get to me). I find the machines a lot more appealing as I don't have to queue.

Thanks, vacman! I can only comment on our machines at Nailsea, but the problem is that our machine was actually installed in the open on platform 2, rather than inside the existing shelters.  This machine faces the early morning sun, so it's almost impossible to read the screen: from about 0920 onwards, lots of those eligible for 'older person discounts' (I'm not being ageist!) are struggling to work out how to buy off peak tickets for the later 0946 service to Paddington.  Fair enough, but there's a growing queue of commuters, who want to buy a return ticket for the 0928 to Bristol Temple Meads - which is, perhaps fortunately in this example, delayed by a few minutes, let's say.

The problem is, as soon as the ticket machine's clock turns 0930, the option of a 'standard day return' disappears from the screen, and the only ticket offered is a cheap day return.  However, as I understand it, if I catch the 0928, even if it's delayed by a few minutes, I should have bought a 'standard day return' - but the machine doesn't allow me to do so, because the dear old pensioners in front of me (bless them - I'll be one some day soon!) took so long to buy their much less time-critical ticket!

Why does the machine just remove the option for me to buy the ticket I need to buy because of its clock mechanism?  Or would you, hearing this apparently implausible story, allow me to buy the correct ticket on the train?   :P

Technically speaking, if the train is late and departed after 0930 the ticket is valid - at least, that's what applies down here in SWT land and RPIs don't argue it.

I would let you buy ticket on train if i heard this story, but your best bet would be to buy the CDR, explain what happened when(if?) ypur ticket is checked, and pay the excess. This would happen anyway if the TM/conductor was on the ball, but to be honest if you bought the ticket after 0930 I'd let you travel on a CDR!

I wouldn't see a problem with this?? You can still buy an SDR though, you have to look the fare up using the "A to Z station index", sorry, i've become a bit of an expert on these machines! These machines are ideal for busy stations that have a ticket office aswel as you find that your regulars will just go straight to the machine and buy what they need without having to queue up, but more brain power should have gone into the positioning of these machines, surely everybody knows that the sun rises in the East, hangs around in the south and then sets in the West!!

As I've said before I've had several issues with these darned things, including:

* Near impossible to see what's being displayed on the screen in direct sunlight
* Rejecting all my money I put in because I was 20p over, despite it telling me change was available
* Rejecting all my money a second time because I was taking about 30 seconds to find exact change to put in
* Rejecting every note people tried to put in (My ^5 note included), 2 other people tried without success that day
* Cards not being read properly
* Machine being 'Out of Service' for no given reason
* Overly complex interface

Slightly different topic but on the subject of penalty fares, it should be the case that any station where the ticket office isn't open should be exempt from PF even if there are these ticket machines because of the serious issues with them. Any station where the office is open should have them, though, and people should be encouraged to use them. It's not fair to criminalise people who haven't been able to get their ticket from a malfunctioning/unusable ticket machine and have had no other option.

Couldn't agree more, I think at unstaffed stations in the PF areas they should have put in PERTIS machines, these are Permit to travel machines where you just put in any coins and the machine gives you a voucher which proves which station you boarded at, it reduces fare evaision by showing which station you actually came from, so for e.g. if you boarded at Oldfield Park going to Bristol, when you arrived at the barriers you couldn't say "I came from Stapleton Road mate" and thus not pay the apropriate fare. I think FGW are regretting putting these TVM's at unmanned stations as they cause problems, why they cant just have someone in a hut with an Avantix machine I don't know! far more customer friendly!

Does anyone know what the cost is to buy and install a ticket machine?  Or if not, what would you guess?  I'm looking for the price of a machine such as those installed at many of the stations in these parts which are not manned throughout train service hours.

They come from Germany.

Probably at least ^20,000. I think that's what I was told.

They are reasonbly sophisticted if programme correctly. You are supposed to be able to buy tickets for tommorrow and pick up advance purchased tickets.

The ones in the London area won't give you the old NSE 4 for 2 off peak tickets.

^30,000 per machine, installed, they are great bits of kit apart from the fact that they don't do groupsave tickets! however, local railcards are now recognised on them!

Magic - thanks.

They dont do Rovers/Rangers either.

Contact Scheidt & Bachmann for a full costing list.

I'm sure they can issue rovers though - just has to be set up...

Well all the ones I have seen in Devon and Cornwall can't.

I don't understand why they can't do Groupsave tickets- surely it can't be that difficult to put Groupsave - 3 and Groupsave - 4 options on all tickets where a Cheap Day Return is valid.  ???

Groupsave generally isn't done due to the possible problem of people travelling apart, returning on different trains, etc. Hence why guards issue them and explain the terms!

We seem to have gone slightly off topic, but I've got the answer that I was looking for on the price, so I'll ride along.   

Can the machines issue tickets from stations other than those at which they are located? If I've taken the bus up to Chippenham in the morning, but want to return later in the day and travel through on the 19:01 to Melksham or Trowbidge, can I buy a Melksham to Swindon ticket from the machine.  Similarly, if I'm travelling to Didcot, then onward to Paddington, can I buy my Didcot to Paddington ticket from the machine at Chippenham.

Once again - it's the same situation as rovers.

The software allows it, but they won't activate it as it 'promotes fare evasion'.

On another note, SWT will be accepting Solo, Diners & Visa Electron on their TVMs (ticket vending machine) soon, and as they're the same make as FGW that should pave the way for FGW to accept them too.

and apart from the fact that they run on Windows which crashes!  Well, the one in Newton Abbot does anyway....

FGW should already have them accepting Solo and Electron.

The DB ones which are similar will issue Lander Group tickets and Schones Wockende group tickets.

The ones in Dresden will issue them in advance for Saxony and Berlin Brandenberg which means a group of 5 can travel from Dresden to Berlin for 52 Euro admittedly you have to travel by RE Double deck not on the through EC. They are from (Prague or further East) which cost 35 Euro for one. Admittedly it's a 21/2 to 3 hour run  on the RE without buffet as opposed to 2 hour run on the EC with resturant car. However the RE is quicker to Sconefelde (Easy Jet) airport as you make a 2 nd change on the outskirts of Berlin as opposed to going into the HBF and back out.

Newton Abbot has an older style ticket machine, although I imagine the big blue ones elsewhere also use windows :p

Last time I tried it refused the card... about 2 weeks ago! Worked in a shop about 10 minutes later.

Does anyone know what happend to the Ticket machine at my (for all my sins) local station on Platform 2? (Bristol 'down' Direction)

I arrived this morning on the morning commute to work (get free travel, so why bother driving!!) and found the stump of the ticket machine base, covered over with a piece of plywood stuck down using the good old FGW Yellow & Black 'Chevron' tape  ;).

(before anyone says "You work for FGW, you tell us!!", I work on the Engineering side of the company, not Operations and the station was unstaffed today!)

Judging by the performance of other ticket machines reported on here recently, I'd suggest it's probably dissolved.

Just off to work on that stretch, so I will try to find out.  Nothing to do with the new college term I trust? ;D

Photo taken on the 13/04/2008 :

(http://www.raildocuments.org.uk/apr08photos/130408yate4.jpg)

Unofficial word is that persons unknown attempted to 'borrow' the machine...using a 'borrowed' 4x4.  Vehicle came off worse according to my source.

 >:( F**king w**kers!!!

Typical of sodding Yate

Thanks G.Uard

Yes, thanks indeed, G.Uard!  ;)

Now, the question perhaps arises: if these ^20,000 ticket machines are apparently 4x4-proof ... why aren't they also water-proof ???

 ;D

Are there reliability figures for the machines, perhaps 'Tickets between failure' figures that DaFT might like to look at.  :D

Why aren't they also water-proof ??? Good question, it's attention to detail again like watering toilets.

Machine at Nailsea was looking very sad this morning. Looked like someone had taken an axe to it yesterday.

Two month's on and the machine at Yate still hasn't been replaced. The machine on platform 1 has been out of use since September too. Presumably they are connected/networked for fares updates and card authorisations so both machines need to be in place?

A Gloucester based conductor told me that Yate is to have a machine intended for Cam & Dursley as Yate's need is far greater. I hope that when it is replaced it is repositioned so that it is not facing south or south-east as the direct sunlight on it during the summer months made the machine unusable even if in perfect working order.

Hi, g4mby, and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

We still have the same unsatisfactory situation with the machine on platform 2 at Nailsea, too.  Our local cheery chap does what he can, but he's not there every day, and in the peak the surviving ticket machine under platform 1 just isn't enough!

The water-proof touch screen costs a few Hundred quid more, FGW think it's cheaper to put in shelters for those ticket machines in WET locations, they only cost a few grand!!!!!

It must NEVER rain at some FGW stations ;D

It wouldn't dare rain at Yate ;D

Over two years Yate has shown the strongest growth of any station with a meaningful thoughput, from 128,000 to 199,000 entries and exits. At this rate of growth it will overtake Keynsham in next year's figures. (Actually last year's figures because of the delay in publishing them.)

And all this with only an hourly service, which must discourage a lot of potential users. 

Hello there

I am just trying to find out just how many FGW penalty fares stations still have there ticket vending machines installed as it has recently come to my attention that many have been removed due to vandalism and theft. While traveling around the thames valley on Saturday i noticed the machines at Langley and Bourne End had both been removed .I am also prety sure the machines at Hungerford, Worle ,Keynsham ,Cam & Durlsley and Yate have gone although i unsure confirmation would be appreciated.

Thanks in adavnce

As of 12:00 Sunday 8th Feb '09 following machines I am aware of:

Bourne End: been vandalised and removed.
Crowthorne: 1 of 2 has been removed.
Goring & Streatley: has been removed.
Keynsham: has been removed.
Mortimer: has been removed.
North Camp: 1 of 2 has been removed.
Pangbourne: has been removed.
St Austell: out of use for car park maintenance.
Trowbridge: 1 of 2 has been removed.
Trowbridge: 2 of 2 has been Vandalised.
Worle: has been removed.
Yate: 1 of 2 has been removed.
Yatton: TVM Downside removed.

>:( ::) >:(

Bodmin Parkway removed and re-instated...was in such a stupid place that no-one realised it was there.

A friend who works for FGW suggested to me a while ago that penalty fares were unlikely to be charged in the Bristol area unless a passenger had boarded at a station with an open staffed ticket office, as it was too difficult to prove that the machines were functioning correctly at a given unstaffed station, thereby leaving the penalty fare notice wide open to appeal.

So, what are the rules as far as penalty fares go when some machines at a station are missing?

To take an example: at Keynsham a couple of weeks ago the ticket machine on the Bristol-bound platform was missing, but the machine on the Bath-bound platform was still in situ (sounds like it may not be anymore!).

So, if I walked from Keynsham town centre to catch a train for Bristol, all I would walk past is the missing machine. If I then boarded the train without a ticket (having noticed the missing machine), would I be liable to a penalty fare?

And are these ticket machine removals permanent? Are they to be replaced with something more robust (e.g. a PERTIS machine issuing permits to travel rather than a full-blown ticket machine?)

Penalty fares in the Bristol area not currently in place from any station, still dragging their heels getting licence, strictly speaking if any form of ticket issuing facilty is availiable then a penalty fare could be charged and it be down to the customer to appeal, and not having the correct change is not classed as a valid reason officially, although all of the non-functional TVM's are paged out all the time through the day to allow inspectors to make their judgement with all the facts.

If FGW take notice of what SWT have done, they'll probably be removing Permit to travel (PERTIS) facilities wherever there are modern Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs) installed. What SWT found was that many pax would just stick 10p in a Permit to travel (PERTIS) machine routinely, hoping they'd avoid a grip on the train. Unless the Permit to travel (PERTIS) machines are of a type that only gets switched on if the TVM reports itself U/S, they seem to create a bit of a loophole alongside a working TVM, or where there is a TVM is only on one platform...

Paul

Edit:VickiS - clarifying acronyms

The penalty fare wouldn't apply if there was no way of you buying a ticket at the station, so yes the machine may not be on your platform, but there are facilities at the station for buying a ticket.

Some of the Pertis machines in London used to only accept a minimum of ^1 of the basis that no tickets were cheaper than that.

And what happens if you can't operate machines? e.g. if it is cold, the touch screen won't work; or if you are elderly/technophobic, and rely on buying a ticket from staff

Thanks for raising this, CEO2 - and may I extend a hopefully warm and dry welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  ;)

Two ticket machines were installed recently at Nailsea & Backwell (see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1732.msg34133#msg34133).

As of this morning, they were both out of use with smashed screens (and had been for the past week) - but this evening, they were both working again, with nice shiny new screens. :o

What is missing here at Nailsea in the mornings, though, rather too often, is our local chap with an Avantix machine.  ::)

I agree 100%

In all honesty some people just can't be bothered to use a ticket machine because they are a technophobe (or too impatient), or are to scared that their card will get stuck in the machine (has been known to happen...!)

I think saying to passengers, buy your ticket from a ticket machine or get a penalty fare is unfair. because no matter how simple you make it, some people will not have a clue how to use a ticket machine. Also if your disabled you might not be able to access the ticket machine, or could put yourself in danger by doing so (e.g. Deaf/Blind Person).

I Think the rule should be if you want to travel, you should be allowed to board the train, but on the condition that you make yourself known to the TM/RPO as soon as is physically possible.

Generally if I board a train without a ticket I will tap on the Guards door and ask to buy a ticket, which nearly all the time are more than happy to issue me a ticket. Some may say get one at Bristol or Bath on the way out (Which I do) as it makes their job easier.

Also some of the TVM's don't even work properly. Or get vandalised before onboard staff are aware.

The purpose of ticket machines is to reduce queues for the ticket office, by allowing people to pick up pre-paid tickets and by selling standard tickets.

what crap, they're there to issue tickets to whoever wants to use them! some people like to go to the ticket office, fair doo's, some people would rather use the machine as they may not like interaction with people.

TVMs are fine for regular travellers who know exactly what they want. The problem comes with working out which ticket to buy (and even with fares simplification you're still frequently offered about 10 different possibilities for a given journey, e.g. Oxford to Bristol do you want "not Reading" or "not London", SOR, SDR, SVR, CDR, SOS, SDS, CDS, SVS etc. etc.) There's a big yellow notice on the wall threatening penalty fares, prosecution, fire and brimstone for boarding a train without a ticket. Unfortunately our unfamiliar passenger doesn't have a clue what s/he wants and ends up staring blankly at the screen like a rabbit caught in the headlights with the queue building up behind them, before they panic and end up buying something that may be far too expensive.

Another big problem is that the machines cannot advise about the times restrictions for using tickets: taking the Oxford - Bristol example again, the morning peak restrictions for the two possible routes are different and although I've made that journey several times a month for the last 8 years I wouldn't be able to tell from a TVM which the appropriate ticket was if I wanted to travel back at a different time from usual. I'm not quite sure how this is permitted, since I would have thought a customer is entitled to know at the point of sale exactly what the ticket they are buying entitles them to!


Another problem comes when 80-year-old Aunty Mavis who hasn't yet figured out how to work the video recorder pitches up at an unstaffed station equipped with a TVM. She can't handle the technology, and even then has no idea what ticket she should buy, and ends up with a penalty fare.

Note to mods - worth shifting this thread to Fare's Fair?

That's what I am saying. Sorry that my post so unclear it was cr*p. >:(

They augment and supplement ticket offices. They are no use in some circumstances, such as planning longer journeys (where split tickets and train times are needed to get the best offers - i.e. the NXEC website).

They are very useful for short, common journeys.

I was reliably informed today by the missus that the Missing machine at Yate Plat 2 has now been re-installed & is working.

Re. People getting cards 'stuck' in the Machine, it is a Chip & Pink keypad & Card slot, so i cannot see how that is physically possible unelss you are very slow (Thats a large proportion of punters then  :-\ :o !?) or insert it into the 'Notes' recepticle!! (also a retarded thing to do!)

Correct, But some ticket machines it's an Insert Card Here... similar to your standard High Street ATM. I'm pretty sure thats what they have at Westbury, which when first introduced cause no end of bother...

In all honesty though I have never seen anyone awarded with a penalty fare for local/medium distance travel e.g. Trowbridge - Bath Spa or Warminster to Salisbury without a ticket. A mere frown and don't do it again response is normally used... ;)

Does anyone know if there's a next generation in the build that would replicate say the NEEC Website so you could buy on the spot tickets from Anywhere to Anywhere on any date?

It surely shouldn't be too difficult to schieve.

Absolutely love the SBB CFF FFS machines in Switzerland which are a breeze to use

As I said in another post, I can't see any TOCs allowing this as they would lose revenue through people buying combinations of tickets.

And...quite a few of our 'customers' do dislike interaction with people...especially conductors.  Machines do also offer the 'proof of payment' option, which will be useful if ever the penalty fare licence appears.

Thanks for all of your information pleased to hear the Nailsea machines are back in action

Are you refering to fare dodgers by any chance G.Uard ...? ;)

Hmm ... I may have posted a bit too soon, there, CE02!  ::)

This morning, both machines were cheerfully accepting cash payments for tickets - but I noticed that some miscreant seems to have applied either solvents or some heat source to the buttons on the keypads, reducing them to a molten plastic splodge.  I've no idea whether those buttons still work - but I'll try to find out, tomorrow morning!

???

Trowbridge again OOA and wrapped in Police tape. Looks quite a professional job with a single lock targetted, no crowbar marks down the outside this time.

Filton's ATM is now back in action in it's new 'hut' and digital Doris has a new battery in her watch.

And one of the machines at Nailsea had it's glass screen shattered this morning.

Thanks for the continued information. While on the Reading to Didcot line on the weekend i noticed TVMs were all in use at Tilehurst,Pangborne , Didcot Parkway and Cholsey. Goring & Streetleys machine was out of service but not vandalised . Rather interesting was the fact that all the stations permit to travel machines had been locked out of use with a sign telling all customers to use the machines it looks like the days of permit to travels are well and truely numbered on FGW. The machine at Langley is still missing .

Pertis machines serve no purpose when a TVM is available. The rules are you must pay before you travel if the means exist to pay. So, if the TVM is working, using Pertis won't count and you could still be liable for a penalty fare. Hence, it is easier to turn off the Pertis machines and avoid any misunderstanding.

The status of TVMs is remotely monitored. If someone claims a TVM is not working, this can easily be verified.

Interesting stuff earlier in this thread about who uses TVMs and who prefers ticket offices. Tickets on Departure were made available (on the S&B machines) about a year ago and now account for a significant proportion of the business they do. Watch for increasing availability of season tickets through them. Usage of the TVMs continues on an upwards trend - so they are certainly popular with regular users. TVMs at large stations have a different customer profile from those at unstaffed stations, of course.

The other significant trend, of course, is use of the internet to purchase tickets in advance (and collected from the TVMs). Its a lot cheaper to have customers do the research and booking onilne, than to provide ticket office staff to do the work for them. There is not much margin in having a sales adviser spend 15 minutes researching the cheapest way of getting from A to B and back, just to sell ^15 of advance tickets. Hence the closures of travel centres and incentives to book online.

Yes Oxman, reading back, my post on this subject was confusing.  I should have mentioned that Pertis machines, (which are obsolescent anyway I believe), are a separate beast.  That said, I will be understandably more sympathetic towards a customer who approaches me for an excess to say Gloucester, on a ticket, (purchased from a TVM) and valid from Yate to Cam & Dursley, then I would to someone who claims to have got on at Temple Meads but doesn't have a ticket to show when challenged.

Both machines at Keynsham have been physically removed, and I am told by a member of FGW staff they will not be replaced due to repeated vandalism. Which might make life interesting if the Bristol area penalty fares licence is ever granted...

Going back to the Pertis machines they do have a purpose but are only really any use if combined with effective, regular on-board checks: when a permit has been purchased it indicates where the passenger boarded so prevents any fraudulent attempts to purchase ticket for a shorter journey than has been made. However, ticket checks on board DOO services in the Thames Valley (where penalty fares do apply) are so infrequent that Pertis machines would probably allow passengers to make lots and lots of journeys between unstaffed/ungated stations for 10p each.

SWT seem to lead the way with this sort of thing, they have removed the vast majority of their Pertis machines, their explanation being that too many people saw them as an aid to fraudulent travel.  The only two remaining in South Hants are at Millbrook and Redbridge, but they are a new rugged design by S&B - must be the SWT designated bandit country, as even Sholing has a full TVM, although it is in a strengthened enclosure with roller shutter door.

Therefore any rule that may have existed that made Pertis machines a compulsory fit in PF areas seems to have been overcome...

Paul

Permits to travel have always been a "loophole" in the penalty fare regulations. In fact, I believe no fraud is committed if a passenger purchases a permit (in the absence of a TVM selling the appropriate ticket) and then completes their journey without either encountering a ticket examiner/RPI/conductor or an open booking office. In this situation the railway has not given the opportunity to purchase a ticket.

The main loophole currently seems to be that the local chancers in the Oxford area know which stations are in the penalty fares scheme and which aren't, so they will make a long journey with no ticket on a DOO service and turn up at the barrier ticketless but claiming to have travelled from one of the stations from which PFs don't apply. Undoubtedly in doing so they commit an offence but I don't see how this could be proved and prosecuted.

You would be surprised how often some inspectors do plain clothes follows on regular fare evaders in the thames valley area.

Me and my friend just had a very enjoyable jaunt on the sleeper thursday night from Paddington to Penzanze spending yesterday wizzing around the Cornish rail network on the great value Cornish rover. This trip gave me a good opportunity to check the status of TVMs in Cornwall and parts of Devon which were as followed.

Penzanze (Not in PF scheme?) - Full working order
Truro - Full working order inside ticket office not sure if ticket office is locked up in evening
St Austell - Could not view machine from train
Par - Full working order
Bodmin Parkway - Full working order
Liskeard - Full working order
Plymouth (Shere) x2 - Full working order along with ticket barriers at 19:20
Totnes - Out of service but not missing

The TVM's in cornwall seem to be pretty reliable, St Austell is in the process of being moved at the moment.

'Yate station ticket machine under threat', from the Bristol Evening Post today:


For the article, see http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Yate-station-ticket-machine-threat/article-923332-detail/article.html

Hi, last week I went from Newton Abbot to Plymouth.  There were many people queuing in the ticket office, most likely due to the lack of a "todays tickets only" window there so I decided to use the ticker machine.  I selected off peak day return and as I have a Devon & Cornwall railcard I selected this when it asked for railcards.  I then pressed the button to confirm this and I was immediately taken but to the start screen.  I went through again selecting my railcard and was again taken back to the start screen.  I then went through a third time without selecting a railcard as I didn't want to risk missing the train and the ticket was issued.  Does anyone know why it wouldn't let me select a Devon & Cornwall railcard?

Seems like a programme error. Unless there's a time restriction and you were too early.

Machines in the Thames Valley won't issue 4 for price of 2 tickets.

May have been the ticket type? D&C railcard is ONLY valid with Off-Peak tickets

sorry for bringing this up... how many people actually go to the ststion to book in advance these days?

If I could book in advance from Taplow for any journey in the UK, which I can't,  I would be down the station like a shot.

yes i guess your rite... if only there was the facility to book in advance online

It was an off peak day return at about 15:30.

I don't know that many stations where you can book ANY journey in the UK from due to the fact that Northern Ireland is a separate network.

There are several:   thetrainline, First Great Western website, NXEC site and so on.

Hehe

Just wondering what stations still have ticket machines in the Bristol area?. Am i right in thinking that between Bristol and Westbury machines only exist at Bristol TM , Bath Spa and Westbury. Makes a bit of a mockery of the penalty fares scheme which is supposedly.

in place.

Thanks in advance

Bradford On Avon, Trowbridge definitely had them last time I was there.

If you're asking about the Bristol area generally, Nailsea & Backwell currently has two working TVMs.  I checked them yesterday!  ;) :D ;D

Keysham and Oldfield Park have them too.  They also have a "man in the hut" during weekday morning peak hours I believe.

Between Bristol and Westbury, it is only Freshford and Avoncliff that does not have ticket purchasing facilities.

In the Bristol area generally,

Yate,
Bristol Parkway,
Filton Abbey Wood
Nailsea & Backwell
Yatton,
Keynsham

and obviously Bristol Temple Meads have ticket purchasing facilities available.

Interestingly, no stations on the SVB line have ticket purchasing facilities, and this is the line, IMO, needs them the most.

......but not according to National Rail Enquiries website. Still, no surprise there. Accurate information is not ATOCs strong point.


Revenue collection has improved enormously on this line. Simplified fares and better staff provision on peak services has worked wonders. I think that at most the SVB line could have PERTIS equipment, full blown TVMs would be an expense to far.

Keynsham did not have TVMs in mid-August (nor had it had for some months) after their removal due to persistent vandalism. I don't know if they have since been re-installed. It could be that the NRES website is actually correct.

The Bristol-area penalty fares scheme, despite the profusion of posters, is not active, even though it is a franchise commitment.

The Oldfield Park ticket machine is still away for repair after being vandalised. As handy as having these self service ticket machines are at unstaffed stations they are sitting ducks for vandals. I would imagine the company who makes these machines has a very busy repairs department.

I have just struggled and given up buying a ticket from a ticket machine with a touch screen in the wet weather. I ended up in the ticket office and was told that this wasn't unusual and that touch screens struggle in certain types of weather particularly the rain.

I am interested has anyone else come across this ???

The two TVMs at Nailsea & Backwell have always had a hissy fit the morning after any overnight rain.

I was at the station on Sunday morning and both screens showed 'Out of Service' - again, after heavy rain in the early hours. The perspex canopy doesn't seem to give them adequate protection from driving rain:

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4272/nailseastationticketmac.jpg)

They don't work in cold weather, as they rely on your hands to be warm.

The shelter at Theale wasn't much help too. Interesting that cold weather causes problems.

The Ticket office seemed to suggest that this weather interference was a regular occurrence.

ALso in sunshine the glare can prevent you from reading the display.

LOL - OK to buy a ticket providing its not cold, or raining or the sun is shining.

I've been told a lighted cigarette works quite well !   ;D

And also assuming some friendly native hasn't kicked the screen in! Or melted the pin-pad with a cigarette lighter, filled the coin slot up with gum, etc etc!

... and even if you do turn up at a TVM, on the one or two days a year when it isn't cold, or sunny, and it hasn't rained recently, and the local youth haven't attempted various unauthorised modifications to the machine - you still can't buy a Group Save!  ::)

Or a split-ticket, or a destination PlusBus, or a Rover/Ranger, or a ...... come on forum, I'm sure there's more.....

Try the ticket machine at Whimple!

I think not be able to buy group save tickets from a TVM is a con.

I beleive the machines are German in origin you can certainly buy group tickets in all their macihnes. We even bought both a Saxony and Brandeburg Lander Group ticket (up to 5 people not ICE or IC/EC)  in a machine in Dresden (Saxony). Makes fare from Dresden to Berlin E12 each instead of E35. Admittedly you have to cahnge and it takes an hour longer but when you're on holiday what's that matter.

It would be like buying a Devon and Cornwall Rover at Taplow.

IMO, TVM should ONLY be put in where there is a ticket office, as a way for regular passengers to quickly buy a simple ticket.

They should not be relied on at an unstaffed station. Unfamiliar and elderly passengers either CAN't use them or can't use them PROPERly.

e.g. They CON railcard holders into paying the ^12 minimum fare for their ticket, when the actually ticket costs less.

e.g. Don't offer Group Save (should say, go to the ticket office to get half price, etc)

etc.

The two TVMs at Nailsea & Backwell are by Scheidt & Bachmann - similar to those used in Germany, as has been confirmed elsewhere (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5435.msg51896#msg51896) on this forum.

No they don't, it's the persons responsibility to research their options and read the relevant terms and conditions. Just as much as it is my responsibilty to check I'm given the correct change in a shop. Same principle really.

For once, I actually HAVE some sympathy WITh Btline on this ONE.  ;)

When you're buying a ticket at a ticket office, you can ask for and get an explanation of the time restrictions that apply to it. Buy one from a TVM and it may say "See Restrictions" or "As Advertised" in the Validity section. Where are those restrictions advertised? They sure as hell aren't on the TVM. If I go into Tesco to buy something, I expect to have all the information I need to make my purchase available at the point of sale. I shouldn't have to spend half an hour on the web before I set foot in the store researching the different options - that information should be available to me at the point of sale. With a TVM it isn't.

There's a wider argument here, because it's partly a function of the rather byzantine fares system that so much information is required anyway. TVMs are certainly useful for low-value, local journeys where there often isn't the same anytime/off-peak/super-off-peak range of options but for longer journeys they're a bit of a minefield for the customer. You and I, d_m, both know far more than the average man in the street about rail fares so it's relatively easy for us. However, I really don't think that 80-year-old Aunt Gladys can reasonably be expected to tip up at her local station and navigate her way through all the options on a Scheidt and Bachmann TVM to procure the ticket she needs, or face a penalty fare.

If it's not possible to make the information passengers need to make an informed choice about what ticket to buy clearly and concisely at the point of sale (ie. the ticket vending machine) then I don't regard them as an acceptable substitute for a booking office.

Are you saying that you can select your ticket, then add a YP Railcard, and the price goes up?  I'm sure you must have reported this fault when it happened?

Paul

It does, and it isn't a fault. (well it should be really!)

How exactly is Scheidt pronounced? I have an idea on this, that could also be used as a pejorative for these  Ticket Vending Machine (TVM)s!


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

It's pronounced exactly as you think!  :)

Fault is probably the wrong word. Programming error is probably more correct. I checked today how SWT's machines deal with the minimum fare on the Network Card, (^13.00 on weekdays). If you select Network Card for a fare lower than ^13.00, a warning page comes up explaining that you are about to pay too much, do you really want to proceed.

There is a reason why you might want to use a Network Card unneccesarily though, because paying a couple of quid extra might allow you to benefit as you can take up to four children with you at a 20% fare. However this option is really only relevant at a TVM if you have already added the children to the details of the group travelling - for a single passenger it would be much more logical to blank the Network Card for all fares below ^13.00 on weekdays.  However I know the Network Card is not displayed at all before 1000 on weekdays - it follows that the machines could also be programmed to not display 16-25 card for fares less than ^12.00 before 1000 either...

If I ever get to a station before 1000 weekdays  :o  I'll have a check of how SWT's machines deal with 16-25 cards -unless someone else does it in the mean time.  Reasoning being that if SWT's TVMs deal with it 'safely', FGW's machines (being the same manufacturer under the skin, ie S&B), should be able to do the same...

Paul

From the Gloucestershire Gazette (http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news/4818044.Call_for_ticket_machine_at_train_station/):

From above

"Obviously we are very anxious to ensure that people do buy tickets to travel.^

Doh!

The ticket machines at Maidenhead yesterday morning were either not working (Shoppenhangers road entrance) or cash only (the ones at the main entrance).. So there was a very long queue in the booking hall... Well done to the people in the ticket office though for clearing the queue as fast as possible which kept it all very good natured as far as I could see.. I managed to still get my train (although that was helped by it being 5 minutes late too  ;D)..

I was wondering if this was this a result of the BT exchange fire/flood at Paddington on Wednesday?

Incidentally, why are the credit card screens on those machines so low down and difficult to see. I'm not tall and I struggle to see the display without stooping down? It must be hard work for taller people?  ;D :)

Probably the flood/fire, ticket machine failures were reported in a few areas yesterday, and not just on FGW

I believe the CC readers and PIN pads are (or have to be?) at a height suitable for wheelchair users...

Paul

Well, it could be worse!  See http://money.ca.msn.com/savings-debt/gallery/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=23530950&page=1  ;) :D ;D

Thanks Paul.. It affected lots of retail outlets too amongst other places.. I thought it might be down to that..

If the credit card machines are at a height for Wheelchair users, can they see the tcket selection screen which points upwards to see which tickets they want? It was the ease of seeing them (for me) versus how hard it is to see the credit card display that made me question it really?

This morning I was buying a travelcard for London and wanted to travel on the 9.03 from Maidenhead to Paddginton which is during the peak.. It was about about 8.55am.. without even thinking I pressed the usual button on the ticket machine.. Luckily something made me check before I paid as it turned out that this was the off-peak travelcard which isn't valid on my train..The first train that is valid on (apparently) is the 9.17 departure..

Is this a new feature? Or a problem with the machines today?.. I couldn't find the ticket I wanted so then had to go and queue up to buy a ticket from a real person...

A man there also got caught out by this but managed to buy the ticket and was therefore trying to pay the difference when he realised..

Very interesting.

I've just caught a piece on R4 today about Passenger Focus complaining that TVMs didn't sell off peak tickets before 09:30 and thus where ther is no ticket office and a train shortly after 09:30 people didn't have enough time to buy a ticket.

The exact opposite of your problem.

TOCs are really going to have to grasp the ticket issuing problem, if they are going to rely on more and more TVMs to save staff costs then they have to be flexible enough to sell the right ticket at anytime. Or say off peak tickets have NOT VAlid before 09:30 on them in BOLD and this is also against the fare in the list.

Also another of my beefs 4 for 2 not being available from TVMs I understand from other posts that on websites 4 for 2 appears on the list of Railcards. therefore presumably the machines could be programed with this option.

Last night 20 http://www.swrs.co.uk/ (http://www.swrs.co.uk/) members travelled from Slough to Windsor and back on our annual mystery tour which ended at Gooch's grave in Clewer for ^1 each on 4 for 2 but luckily Slough Booking Office was still open. 

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10423377.stm):


"....only a small number of passengers are affected...." And that makes it alright does it?

'Well, Your Honour, I only defrauded a few people.....'

I've had similar problem with the London Midland machine at Worcester Foregate Street.

A Saver Return to Preston isn't valid before 09:00.

But, they are valid when combined with a Railcard.

But the ticket machine still won't sell you one.

Missed my train (and my connection to Preston) on account of this last week.

I was under the impression that the 'Peak' exemption for Railcard holders on Virgin priced journeys only applies to travel on Virgin services, not connecting services as well. Thats what the restriction code information appears to say.

    
2) Holders of 16-25, Senior, 
Disabled Persons, HM Forces   
and Family & Friends Railcards
, New Deal Photocards and     
Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards   
travelling with Off-Peak     
tickets may use ANY Virgin   
train service, as long as the
journey being made is priced 
by Virgin Trains.

So from Worcester, you'd need to split at Brum to travel 'Peak' with Virgin.

I think they are only validbefore 0900 if you are travelling on virgin trains.  i dont know if it would be valid from wos to birmingham on a london midland train.

Take your point - but I've done the journey using the one through ticket and not had it challenged.

sounds as though ytou shouldn't have.....

As per ChrisB just because you have done it before unchallenged, doesn't make it right.

Is there an obvious reason why the relaxation to the restriction (as quoted by 'bignosemac' above) is in place in the first place?  Seems a strange, and probably baffling to the average passenger, relaxation to me! 

No surprise that 'Worcester_Passenger' wasn't challenged as I bet you could count on one hand the number of non-Virgin ticket checkers that know about it, and all the other quirks of the system!

For some reason Virgin have always been nice to railcard holders, allowing off-peak tickets with railcard discounts to be available without restriction on their services for journeys that they price. Also applied to CrossCountry back in the days when it was operated by Virgin, although perhaps predictably Arriva scrapped the concession with indecent haste once they took over.

Have to say that I agree!

Arriva did indeed scrap the concession. Not sure when. Makes travelling to the North East from here a lot more expensive than travelling to the North West.

But why Virgin are so nice to railcard holders is a mystery, given the aggressiveness of the peak-hour pricing.

Virgin may be nice to railcard holders because they realise that the extra revenue they may raise by imposing restrictions isn't worth the adverse publicity they would get from the Daily Mail when the TM surcharges the mythical little old lady for travelling with an off peak  ticket on a peak train.

I can see the logic of that - but why is it that it's only Virgin who make this offer? Surely same comment applies to the other TOCs?

Virgin are so much more famous for good customer service - its the whole virgin brand.......

Last year when I was in ireland, I had a ticket from liverpool to belfast.   Was when the wires at bletchley didnt want to stay up.  I had a ticket for an intercity to liverpool.  It was delayed so I got a virgin vomiter to holyhead - change at crewe.

That was so delayed I ended up spending the night at my moms and rebooking - I emailed virgin - used the good old richard.branson@virgin.com (I doubt he saw it but one of his lackeys did) and I got the price of my flight in virgin vouchers

Doubt first would do that

There is a reason I go virgin to the states exclusively even if it involves more complicated connections.

They arent perfect but they are a hell of a lot better than most

Perhaps Virgin are generous to Rail Card (RC) holders cos they are a "youth" brand and want to keep popular with the students?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Not quite the 'off peak ticket on a peak train' but Virgin do have form with the 'mythical old lady' which shows that their customer service isn't always sweetness and light. After all 49% of that customer service is actually 'provided' by Stagecoach.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8223262.stm

and in the spirit of impartiality here's the story as covered by the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076183/Good-Samaritan-threatened-arrest-organising-whip-round-pensioners-115-penalty-fare.html

I may be cold and heartless but I really don't have that much sympathy in situations as covered by the Daily Hate article. Bottom line: the time of the train you have booked is printed clearly on your ticket or accompanying reservation coupon. Said ticket also has "booked train only" printed on it. If only people could be bothered to read what they have in their hand they might just be able to work it out. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people travelling on advance tickets hand a fistful of wrong coupons to the guard because they're too idle to pick out the right one. How difficult is it for people to read these things? Answer: not very, but huge numbers of people simply won't even try to read them because apparently it's too difficult. Although of course I don't know what happened in this case, it strikes me as very unlikely that station staff would have checked the ticket and told her to catch the wrong train as claimed.

That said, there do seem to be some rail staff who are their own worst enemy in situations like this which have the potential to generate enormous adverse publicity when the little old lady involved goes running to the Mail!

May I suggest reading the stories then blakey? Both mention the fact that the little old lady had a printed itinerary that showed details of an earlier train, which differed from her booked tickets. She enquired about the error and was advised to travel as per the itinerary.

Various articles refer to this itinerary as 'provided by station staff', 'provided by Virgin Trains', 'provided with her tickets'. It appears she double-checked with staff at Manchester Piccadilly and was advised to take the earlier train. Under bye-laws that constitutes 'permission from an authorised person to travel without a valid ticket'.

I think it all depends on the context - that's why I added a disclaimer that we can't know exactly what happened in the situation. I remain extremely dubious that if the woman in question had shown rail staff her actual booked advance ticket they'd have told her to take the earlier train. Who knows under what circumstance the "itinerary" (probably just a print out from RJIS?) was produced? If she walked up to the ticket window and asked for a print out of the next train to Euston then that's what she'd have received.

What is absolutely certain is that she would have had a ticket in her hand with her journey details printed on it, and therefore if she'd actually read that all the info she needed was there.

I take your point, blakey. We can't be certain as to the chain of events.

Although maybe, in this case, benefit of the doubt from the TM would've been warranted. I don't know many 75 year old grandmothers of eleven who deliberately fare-dodge. Also not a particularly good idea on the TM's part to have the police waiting at Euston for the good samaritan who organised a whip-round.

The TM has chinged ^115 and whatever the outcome after Virgin investigated I doubt he lost that particular bit of commision.

Some observations:

The time at which TVMs will sell off peak tickets is programmable, but not by FGW! They have to get the TVM supplier to alter the times. Generally, they are set to start selling a few minutes after the last peak service has departed. In some cases, this doesn't leave much time, Reading used to be 0928 peak service followed by 0935 off peak - don't know if it still is. Bear in mind that the definition of London off peak is trains arriving at 1000 or after. Minor timetable changes can cause anomalies to arise.

Can't generalise about gateline staff in Manchester, or elsewhere, but generally FGW gateline staff are instructed not to allow advance ticket holders onto the platforms until an appropriate time - to avoid a passenger boarding an early service. Of course, other passengers get on the platforms by connecting off other services. For example, they regularly turn up at Reading from Gatwick on an earlier service than booked (and sometimes on a later one - the Gatwick-Reading part of their journey is not restricted) and ask the platform staff if they can travel on the next available to Bristol/Wales/West Country. The strict answer is No. But, sometimes, it is suggested that they ask the TM if he/she is willing to take them. Often enough, if the train is lightly loaded, the TM will say Yes. End result is that some jet lagged passengers remember that they were looked after by FGW. And, as long as it is made clear that this is a one off, discretionary situation, no harm is done.

Although staff may have been trained not to let passengers with advance tickets through too far ahead of time, the programming on the barriers doesn't seem to reflect that. A couple of times I've ended up arriving somewhat early for my booked train with an advance ticket so gone through the barriers to get refreshments and wait for my train, and the ticket has never been rejected by the barrier.

The barriers can't be programmed for particular timed trains, and nor can the mag strip on the ticket - just for Peak or off-peak times....

So these machines are programmed with all the different Off Peak/Super Off Peak and Off peak Day/Super Off Peak Day timings are they?

For instance Reading to any station via London outside the Network Area (Former NSE area) are unrestricted on the London bound journey and only time restricted from London to destination. So as there are no maximum connection times you are free to take any service to London, regardless of walk-up ticket type.

Reading to Oxford CDR is after 0900, Reading to Hanborough is 0845 (means you can travel Off Peak to Hanborough on the 0852, but not to Oxford on the same train!)

Reading to Wesbury SVR is after 0835, SSR is after 1030 (will the TVM stop you buying a SVR to Westbury between 1710-1859 as well?).

Reading to Leamington Spa SVR is 0930.

Reading to Gatwick Airport CDR is 0815.

Reading to Paddington SVR is depart after 0930, but the CDR is arrive after 1000. 

Reading to Bournemouth CDR is after 0930 and not between 1530-1815.

And all this, and countless others no doubt, is correctly programmed into TVMs is it?

Bignose, I was attempting to help answer the original question, which was about off peak tickets to London, which is why I couched my post in terms of travel from Reading to London. I don't know if TVMs handle all of the restrictions for all of the possible ticket types and destinations - being computer based, they certainly could if they were programmed to do it, but you would have to question the cost of this versus the usefulness, and the cost of keeping it up to date. Conversely, it makes sound economic sense to program in the time limits for the principal traffic flow - to London.

Thereby inconviencing the passengers on that principal traffic flow.

I really can't see how the programming of machines with arbitrary cut off times is of any help in protecting revenue. Why do it for one flow and not others?

The first Off Peak Day (CDS/CDR) train to London from Reading is the 0842 all shacks to Waterloo (ticket will say London Terminals), purchasing this ticket will get you through the barriers at Reading at the appropriate time and if unused to the difference between 'slows' and 'fasts' you could mistakenly board a 'barred' train and, depending on on board checks, platforming and barrier programming at Paddington, get away with the incorrect fare.

With Off Peak (SVS/SVR) fares there is only 6 minutes between the last Peak service to Paddington from Reading at 0927 and the first Off Peak at 0933. So if its as Oxman states; "Generally, they are set to start selling a few minutes after the last peak service has departed", then that reduces the chances of someone legitimately catching the 0933 and maybe even the 0934 and 0937.

As passengers we are told to arrive at the station in good time to purchase our tickets and TVM's should facilitate this not hinder it.

Problem with only being able to pass barriers at a "reasonable" time though is for the likes of myself who like to visit the pub at Temple Meads for example for food and a pint before travelling whilst also just relaxing in the station before I catch my train. If barriers only prevented access to platforms then fair enough but with barriers that prevent access to majority of the station passangers like myself will lose out as will the businesses which will ultimately lose trade if passangers can only access main area close to departure time

I seem to remember that the magnetic stripe on the back of the tickets was designed a long time ago, and that it actually contains surprisingly-little information. In particular, there wasn't enough space for the whole of the ticket code ("SVR"/"SVS" etc). Instead, there's only the first two characters - which means that the stripe can't differentiate between singles and returns, which may well have different time restrictions.

Do any of the industry insiders know whether this is indeed the case (or has it been improved over the years?), and the extent to which it's the source of ticket issues at the gates?

Barriers cant read times.  That what the guard is for  ;D  Anyway the ticket you put in does not have a time on it.  Only the reservation does and that does not work the barriers.

Well this morning again at about 8.55. they were selling off peak tickets travelcards already in the place where the peak rate travelcards usually are so it must be a new enhancement or something useful..

Whether or not they would work in the barriers I don't know as I was buying a weekly peak ticket and that option was still there.. Not that I should have bothered... I travelled off peak and very slowly..thanks to someone (FGW/NR/someone in the signal box/someone else).. see seperate post/rant...

Time we went back to Singles, Returns and Day Returns.

Ok still allowing Prebooked cheap Advance tickets from the WEB.

Is this a new policy, or was Paignton simply out of action. Whilst dropping somebody off at Paignton earlier this evening, there were a number of people mulling round the TVM which had a sign stating 'Card Only' on.

I would imagine that the railway lost a number of customers considering not everybody carries cards round with them; especially when the conductor, on the Voyager that the person I dropped off, did not collect fares. Seems the railway has lost ^3.30!

Whilst I can appreciate the security aspects of leaving large amounts of cash in TVMs does this not present a case for longer ticket office opening hours - condering it was only 6pm and Paignton was closed.

Both TVMs at Nailsea & Backwell have been 'card only' for about a year now - so anyone wanting to pay cash, outside the station opening hours of 06:30 to 09:30, will have to buy their ticket on board.

Revenue protection, in such cases, is indeed an issue - although Julian Crow, FGW General Manager for West of England, did assure me yesterday that their current 'commission terms' for staff do encourage them to sell tickets on board.

C.  :-X

There have been a number of thefts of cash from TVMs over the last two years - FGW and SWT have been targetted, particularly in the South East. The attacks do an enormous amount of damage to the machines - it requires a great deal of force to get into them. The thiefs usually get away with only a few hundred pounds, but cause thousands of pounds of damage, and take the machine out of service for an extended period whilst it is rebuilt.

The economics are "simples". Its not worth encouraging attacks for a few hundred pounds of cash. The loss of revenue whilst the machines are out of service plus the cost of repair is much greater than the cash revenue lost by switching the machines to card only.

In truth, and perhaps sad to say. the vast majority of passengers have cards and prefer to use them. How often have you been held up in a shop whilst the person in front pays a few pounds for their magazines, etc. with their magic plastic?

Three different explanations:

- Coin jam, leaving the coin counter out of action.  It could have been taken notes for a while until the machine simply run out of change.

- Same as above, but without the coin jam bit.  The machine simply run out of change.  Should be taking exact ammount, though, so not the most feasible explanation...

- It has been set up that way because some kind of fraud is going on.  They've done it before when they have detected a number of extrange transactions have taken place.  Usually the other way around anyway, the card option and with it the ToD's are disconnected.

In my experience I would say there is some kind of jam and that part of the TVM has automatically been disabled (the machine itself detects something is wrong, so shuts down that component).

That said, a lot of machines around London and Bristol are set as card only due to vandalism and some thefts as Oxman says.  Usually if the TVM cannot be emptied every day, they just won't risk it...

None of the West machines should be card only as far as i'm aware, it may just be a fault with the coin/note mechanisms or the cash boxes may be full, just a note, it's only Train Managers, Assistant Ticket Examiners (ATE)'s and Conductors that get commission, no staff that issue PF's get any form of commission with First Great Western (FGW).


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

Thanks, vacman.

However, I have been told, by FGW, that both TVMs at Nailsea & Backwell have been set to accepting 'card only' purchases for about a year now - due to previous incidents of damage caused during attempted theft of cash from them.

In fact, I've been campaigning for FGW to get stickers added to these two machines, to make this clear - partly to save people wasting their time repeatedly trying to pay by cash, and partly to inform potential ram-raiders that there is no point, because these machines don't contain any cash!

CfN.  ::)

Yes, it's always amused me that FGW seem to fully expect that when these scrotes turn up with their 30 kg sledge hammers to smash up a TVM, before causing any damage they will first pause and take a moment to check that they can actually buy a Cheap Day Return to Bristol with cash.  ::)

Big sign on each machine - There is no cash in this machine - what's the problem with that ??

If it saves ^20,000 machines being trashed for no purpose, I'm all in favour of it.

But on the other hand, as far as I'm aware the Nailsea machines haven't been done over since they went "Card Only" a year ago. Makes you wonder if the gangs raiding the TVMs already knew it wasn't worth visiting Nailsea.  :-\

Hmm.  Next time I see him, I'll ask Jacob when the machines went 'card only', and when they were last attacked, to see if there's anything in that.

yes, most machines in the Central and East areas are currently card only until a permenent solution can be found for sorting out that vandalism problems.

THey were sold to FGW as secure & valdal-proof - so I reckon the manufacturwers are doing this work FOC.

Harry potters arch enemy strikes at TVMs now????

Is there no depths to which he wouldn't sink???

 ;D ;D ;D

Hmm.  ::)

On the wider subject of the general 'robustness / suitability for purpose' of the Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs - see a previous discussion, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3327.msg26161#msg26161

1.  How to do it wrong  Install two ticket machines at a station, and then, due them being attacked, disable them from accepting cash transactions but do not make it clear on the machines that they do not contain cash - as at Nailsea, for example:

(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8334/041dwb.jpg) (http://img72.imageshack.us/i/041dwb.jpg/)

2.  How to do it right  Install ticket machines at a station, but then, due to them being attacked, disable them from accepting cash transactions and make it clear on the machines that they do not contain cash - as at Tilehurst, for example:

(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8255/007kuo.jpg) (http://img833.imageshack.us/i/007kuo.jpg/)

3.  What happens when you do it wrong  This happens:

(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1341/002gdc.jpg) (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/002gdc.jpg/)

I arrived at Nailsea & Backwell yesterday morning at 09:00, to see that sorry sight.  The relief station staff, who had also just turned up, due the non-availablility of our regular staff member, apparently had not been informed of the situation regarding the two machines.  Indeed, when he contacted his depot at Weston, they knew nothing about it either.

It therefore appears that the machines were attacked sometime over the weekend: one assumes the police attended - hence the upside-down tape barrier - but nobody seems to have informed FGW.

What I find particularly annoying about all this is the fact that I have been suggesting to various members of FGW for some considerable time now that, particularly in the absence of any CCTV coverage for these poor machines, it would be a good idea to make it quite clear on both machines that they do not contain cash.

I suspect a lot of the damage inflicted on the Scheidt and Bachmann machines is mindless vandalism, rather than any serious attempt to get cash out of them. Those screens (the only really vulnerable point on those machines, apart from obvious stuff like plugging up the coin or card slot with chewing gum) are just too tempting a target for the knuckle-draggers. Not sure that a sticker stating that there is no cash in the machines is likely to deter that sort of attack.

There are possible solutions: apparently SWT's machines have a more robust screen that is more resistant to being kicked in. Although if they're like the screens on the MTA New York subway then that could be a mixed blessing. The MTA screens look like they could resist a bullet, and indeed they may even have been designed to do so. However, they're so thick that the touch screen can be quite (no pun intended) touch and go in terms of how responsive they are, and the optics can get a bit distorted as well.

A "no cash" sign has deterred the low-life of Maidenhead from attacking the ones at the rear entrance to the station (Shoppenhangers road) for quite a while now  ;)

Sad to say that installing these machines at unstaffed stations was always asking for trouble as has been proved many times by their vandalism since they appeared. FGW appear to have seen sense and not replaced the machine at Oldfield Park that was broken into last December. We wait to see how long the new info points will last at this station.

Maybe it's time that FGW and other TOCs put machines at a local shop who recieve a commision so that the machine is safe and also still allow passangers to purchase tickets on board. May not be suitable a solution is some areas I admit but in some areas this could be an option perhaps?

SWT also have some machines in 'accident prone'  ::)  areas that have roller shutter enclosures that are down overnight.  Remotely controlled, I think under CCTV supervision - in case someone's just reaching in for a ticket...

Paul

An update from me:

As at this afternoon, the right-hand TVM of the pair had been repaired -

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2487/002ffd.jpg) (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/002ffd.jpg/)

However, the more badly damaged machine was still a very sorry sight -

(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/3316/006cs.jpg) (http://img833.imageshack.us/i/006cs.jpg/) (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3816/007ny.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/007ny.jpg/)

Compared with the very concentrated violence which had been directed at the whole 'cash transaction' side of the machine, the touch-screen appears to have just sustained one impact -

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6239/011fj.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/011fj.jpg/)

Looking more closely at the left hand machine, the extent of the damage caused to the internal workings became clear -

(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6156/014rps.jpg) (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/014rps.jpg/) (http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9908/020rw.jpg) (http://img440.imageshack.us/i/020rw.jpg/)

(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/1631/018du.jpg) (http://img261.imageshack.us/i/018du.jpg/)

That suggests to me that most of the damage was caused in a concerted, but very misguided, attempt to gain access to non-existent hoards of cash within these machines.  ::) :o >:(

Chris, I stand corrected, you're absolutely right! I only spotted the damage to the screens in your first pic, but that's an obvious attempt to extract cash. Looks like there was some serious effort and hardware went into it as well, they're said to be pretty robust.

Looks like the second machine is going to need a fair bit of work on it because the bodywork has been damaged. A trip back to the factory me thinks.

A report in tonight's Standard about the conviction of an eastern european gang who targeted ticket machines in the east of London in a series of 22 attacks. The proceeds of their crimes was a grand total of ^8000, yet damage to the machines totalled ^350,000.

Unfortunately showing machines don't take cash means nothing.

http://twitpic.com/1pia9t

Erm ... sorry, but I disagree, Ollie.  :-[

That machine had the 'pay by cash' option, in full view in the top right corner, as well as the coin slot and the banknote slot displayed: they were only obscured by the 'yellow and black' tape and the 'Police aware' sticker after the machine had been trashed.

Interesting, though, that your police can get their tape the right way up.

Chris.  ::)

Perhaps it's time to install ticket machines that consist of a touch screen, small computing unit and a pin pad with printing facilities. All components which are fairly cheap to replace in theevent of vandalism.

Sorry picture isn't clear enough - the "please note" sticker says something along the lines of:

"Following recent repeated attacks on our self services ticket machines they are no longer accepting cash as a method of payment"

It's a bit longer than that, but that is pretty much what it says.

Edit: I do see your point about covering up the cash option with tape, but notices are on the machines saying no acceptance of cash - and even explaining why!

Cough ... all FGW have to do is:

1.  Remove reference to the option to 'pay by cash';

2.  Blank off the coin slot;

3.  Remove the bank note feeder slot;

4.  Put a big notice on the machine that 'This machine does not contain any cash'.

Erm ... didn't I start suggesting that, to FGW, about a year ago ...  ::)

Might help in part, you will still have those that enjoy mindless vandalism.

Fair point - but the occasional bit of 'mindless vandalism', such as the gratuitous breaking of a touch screen, is still rather less traumatic than the complete scrapping of a hitherto perfectly functional Scheidt & Bachmann TVM, in the mistaken belief that there may be a few pound coins inside it ...  ::)

I wonder where the point comes where it costs more to repair and replace these machines against the revenue they make.

Especially when you can buy on board and mostly ticket checks are done between nailsea and bristol

They'd be better taking the TVMs away from some of the vandal hot spots completely and putting them at some of the les vandalised stations where they are needed, i.e. along the Falmouth and St Ives lines! (famous last words) but the Cornwall and Devon TVM's seem to recieve a lot less attention from the local pond life than elswere on the network.

There needs to be a new design of TVM which take cards only and which are therefore less appealing to thieves and simpler and cheaper to make and repair so that they cost less to fix when they are subjected to mindless vandalism.

Having worked on these Scheidt & Bachmann TVM's a heck of the cost is to make these machines, cash secure.

None Cash Machines could I expect be around ^10,000, the Machines that take cash cost around ^28,000.

As a foot note the Pond life that attacked these Machines didn't get anywhere close to getting any Money out.

From the BTP press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/FOUR-JAILED-FOR-15-YEARS-FOLLOWING-TICKET-MACHINE-THEFTS-ACROSS-SOUTH-LONDON-1125.aspx):

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-11352887):

at the vandal hot spots they should have card only TVM's AND Pertis machines, anyone who wants to rob 200 quids worth of 5p's from a Pertis would have a nasty shock!

To be fair, vacman, I wouldn't describe NLS as a 'vandal hotspot'.

This most recent attack - which was the first for over a year, I believe? - was not mere vandalism: it was a deliberately planned attempted theft, by an organised gang.  The degree of violence used, involving the use of cutting tools on the machine casing, shows that, I think.

My point has always been that informing everyone (whether casual teenage vandal or family of organised thieves ::) ) that there is no cash in these machines should have saved the loss of some ^28,000 worth of an ATM at our station.

Perhaps, as you suggest, any replacement TVM should be of a 'card only' design - which would not even raise the possibility of cash being contained within it - for the benefit of our less honest members of 'the big society'?

The TVM at NLS has been done in a few times according to the log but I wasn't singling out NLS in my post, by having card only TVM's is only a half measure, there needs to be some way for people wanting to pay cash so that fare evasion can be controlled, with a Pertis machine the customer would have a permit to travel to prove where they got on the train so that upon arrival at gatelines etc they couldn't say "last stop mate".

True.  Depends if you see TVM as primarily to help enforcement of penalty fares or merely to make ticket buying easier for honest passengers. 

The whole point of the TVM's being installed was for the enforcement of the PF schemes!

I have a feeling i'm going to open a tin of worms here but...

The TVM's at Trowbridge have been removed because of vandalism, but Trowbridge is a PF station, but the ticket office is only open till about 18:00 I believe...!

So I can't see how a PF can be enforced outside of these hours, when there is no way there to buy a ticket... Obviously if I were in that situation, I would seek out a guard to buy a ticket. But most people will just get on and wait for the guard to come to them, which they don't always do...!

The NR website now says that Trowbridge is not a Penalty Fares station: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/TRO.html

Simple, it can't.

If there's no way to buy a ticket (and in the case of a TVM, that means in full working order, accepting both cash and cards) then a PF can't be charged.

Similar situation at Keynshm, for example. TVMs withdrawn some time ago, but it's still a penalty fares station because there's a ticket office there that operates limited hours on weekday mornings. Those are the only times that you could be penalty-fared whilst travelling.

Don't quite understand why people get so upset about this when the rules really are very clear, and are even explained on the nasty yellow posters!

quite right inspector, if the ticket office is open you can be PF'd, if it's closed you cant!

How to do it wrong - yet again  ::) :o >:( :

When one of your ticket vending machines has been ... erm, 'terminated' ...

(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/882/018fb.jpg) (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/018fb.jpg/)

... you should take positive action to preserve the other machine at that site:

(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3790/024dv.jpg) (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/024dv.jpg/)

However: suggesting that there may be any cash in this machine - when there is not, and has not been for nearly two years now, is absolutely crass:

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6559/022huy.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/022huy.jpg/)

Is it so difficult for FGW to do what BT have done, on the telephone kiosk adjoining the approach path to Platform 1 at NLS, to explain, in simple terms, that 'there is no cash in this machine'?

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2738/015tl.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/015tl.jpg/)

CfN  >:( :o ::)

and when the other is "out of service" as it was today so you have to proceed to reading on an iphone/ipad email confirmation of the advance ticket

So with 'CASH EMPTIED DAILY' are the TVMs at Nailsea & Backwell now accepting readies again? (When they work, that is!)

Hardly going to make them less attractive to future attacks. Unless there is some other secret counter-measure now built in.....

....flamethrower, Taser^, viper on a string....

Oh, for the umpteenth time:

The ticket vending machine(s) at Nailsea and Backwell Station have been disabled from accepting any cash transactions for nearly two years now.

THESE MACHINES DO NOT CONTAIN ANY CASH

FGW have just gone and stuck the wrong / inappropriate / stupid sticker on our one surviving machine.





_{Sorry to go on.  Chris.  :P}

....and relax.  ;D

I didn't read the text under the photos and assumed that FGW had repaired the machine and reinstated cash acceptance.

Sorry. I hope I didn't raise your blood pressure too much.  ;)

No you didn't; no they haven't; and yes you did.  ;D

Does rainwater affect the ticket machines? Seemingly did at Earley the other day. Think they could make it a little more protected?

Erm ... sorry to go on about it ::) , but, Yes: rainwater makes the Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs have a 'hissy fit', and refuse to operate afterwards.

See my various posts about this - and the need to install proper all-weather protection, rather than a token perspex cover.  :-X

Swaythling has some sort of card scanning machine on the platforms. Not sure how they work!

Pretty much all the SWT stations now have ITSO card readers on the platforms/gates and on the TVMs.  I've never seen anyone use them, so must still be in testing.

Not sure what SWT have done/ordered differently, but I've never had any problem using their S&B TVMs when raining.

Season tickets on ITSO are in use between Basingstoke and Weymouth, but not into the London Fares zone.

Paul

Spotted one of those ITSO jobbies at Bracknell a few weeks back. Already had a broken screen and a graffito scrawled over it

Hows this one then? Somebody obviously doesn't want the hassle of reporting it.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs743.snc4/64310_1561083979579_1009695379_1579881_627742_n.jpg)

But they forgot to mask over the "... & Change" label, on the ticket trough ...  ::)

Update on the ticket machine saga at Nailsea & Backwell Station.

A rather sorry sight greeted me, this morning:

(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8058/001ras.jpg) (http://img177.imageshack.us/i/001ras.jpg/)

 :o :'( :'(

The other problems with these S&B TVM's is they don't work during cold weather... My understanding is that these machines work by the heat of your hands to press which ticket you require...!

I remember a very cold day where I didn't have my gloves with me and I arrived at Gillingham Station in Dorset and was presented with a closed ticket office and a rather lonely looking S&B TVM at the station... I did attempt for the best part of 20 minutes to buy a FOR to Clapham Junction... but because my hands were so cold, I couldn't make it work... So I spoke to the Guard on the platform when the train arrived and asked if I could buy a ticket, he told me to jump on, so I said i'd be in First Class... I was most glad that I couldn't make that TVM work... I wasn't aware that Weekend First Applied on bank holiday's...! The guard pointed this out to me and sold me a Standard Off Peak Return and didn't even charge me for Weekend First ;D That saved myself a considerable sum ;D

And the remaining one at nailsea isn't fully functioning - spent a good 15 minutes yesterday trying to get the collect prepaid tickets button working before I gave up and travelled on my printout