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LIVE ARRIVALS:
20:55 WESTON-SUPER-MARE FROM LONDON PADDINGTON
First Great Western
As of: Wednesday 25 March 2009 20:36:44
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Service times are drawn from an automated system. Whilst this is the most up to date information it is subject to some potential limitations. Click here to check potential limitations.

This train is expected to arrive on platform 1.
Expected to arrive Weston-super-Mare on time.


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Weston-super-Mare Station Information
Service Bulletins affecting Weston-super-Mare

STATION TIMETABLE EXPECTED ACTUAL
London Paddington Dep18:30 _ On time
Reading Dep18:57 _ On time
Didcot Parkway Dep19:12 _ On time
Swindon Dep19:31 _ On time
Chippenham Dep19:45 _ On time
Bath Spa Dep20:00 _ On time
Bristol Temple Meads Dep20:15 _ On time
Nailsea & Backwell Dep20:29 _ 20:25
Yatton Dep20:36 On time _
Worle Dep20:44 On time _
Weston Milton Dep20:49 On time _
Weston-super-Mare (Your station) Arr20:55 On time _


Not the first time this has happened on this service at Nailsea.

It frequently happens.

Quite obviously it has ridiculous amounts of slack.

Yes, I've often observed that TMs announce that an HST just leaving Bristol Temple Meads 'will be stopping at Nailsea & Backwell in approximately eight minutes time - so make sure you're in one of the front four carriages, blah, blah'.

And sure enough, it does take rather less than ten minutes for an HST to travel between BRI and NLS, so even allowing for a couple of minutes dwell time for cycles to be retrieved from the power car, it can still leave easily five minutes 'early' from NLS.

As devon_metro says, a ridiculous amount of slack - 50%!  >:(

Don't think the issue referring to is slack, according to figures it left Nailsea 4 early.

Sorry, Ollie, but I disagree: on the timetable, it is shown that the departure time from NLS is 20:29.  If I were intending to catch that train from NLS to Weston, I'd have been pretty tee'd off to find that I'd arrived on platform 1 at NLS at 20:26, only to see the tail lights of that HST already disappearing rapidly westwards.  >:(

The alternative, of course, would have been for the train to hang about at NLS until 20:29 before departing 'on time': would the TM then have had the nerve to announce that everyone already aboard was being held up because of the slack on the timetabled departure time?  ::)

Quite frankly, it doesn't take 14 minutes to do Bristol to Nailsea on a 100mph section of track. Often the public timetable deviates from the WTT (working tt) however unlikely by 4 minutes. The said HST then sat down at Yatton awaiting departure time and subsequently left Worle early. Cut the slack and it could easily be 10 minutes faster without jepardising performance on an average day.

Previously it's run early all the way to Weston. I suspect the fact that I told the TM as it was pulling out that she had left 4 minutes early made her check her watch at Yatton.

Next time I'm on the service I'll remind the TM that they need to wait, but surely it should be their job to check that they don't leave early. And why does it have 4 minutes slack there anyway? Most HST's don't, as the slack is built into the Bath to Bristol stretch.

Early departures from stations are sloppy working that should never happen, end of story. Train crew have responsibility for timekeeping and it is up to them to "wait time". Despatching a train early because they have got bored is inexcusable (this once happened to me at Keynsham in the days of Wessex Trains, although how that service managed to arrive there five minutes early on a six-minute running time from Temple Meads without breaking the sound barrier escapes me).

DOO trains from Didcot depart up to 3 minutes early surprisingly frequently. I have also seen the xx37 stopping service from OXF to PAD despatched early when things had got out of sequence and it was in front of the advertised xx31 fast service.

Every time this has happened I have complained to customer relations, but get a standard response giving the implication that the complaint has not been taken seriously (to their credit, when I complained to Wessex the person dealing with the complaint actually checked out the train running logs, confirmed what I had told them and gave a fulsome apology).

I would be annoyed enough to find that my train had departed early if travelling with a flexible ticket. Pax using Advance tickets could get royally screwed over however - I can just see the staff laughing at you further down the line when you explain that you missed your booked train because it departed early!

Surely, though, you'd be able to complain - and obtain compensation - subsequently, as the system will have recorded the 'early departure' of the particular booked train for which your ticket was valid?

Not sure what there is to disagree with, the main issue isn't slack, I was simply stating the system does indeed show departure of 4 minutes early, which I believe is the main issue.

I recently bought one of those Casio radio-synchronized watches, and I'm quite surprised at the number of trains that do depart early. It's not unusual for the 0644 from Nailsea to Bristol TempleMeads to lock its doors and start to move while its still 0642.

Next time you see the guard see if you can look at their watch.  Standard issue analogue with hands.  Accurate to a couple of minutes or so ;D

A couple of years ago the stoppers from Weston to Temple Meads were all timetabled to call at Parson St 10 minutes after Nailsea. When running on time they invariably left Parson St 2 minutes early until the timetable was restored to the correct 8 minutes. After a couple of close shaves I got used to allowing for it. It seemed a crazy place to have slack, because you could delay a late running Voyager by an extra couple of minutes, where as once you reach Bedminster you can be out of the way on the relief line. Now the slack is between Bedminster to Temple Meads which makes a lot more sense.

It surprises me that radio-sync watches (which hardly cost the earth these days - ^15 each if bought in bulk?) are not issued routinely to TM's and Drivers. All the fuss made about whistles blowing and doors locked 40-seconds from departure at staffed stations is so often ruined by a cheap Timex that is reading two minutes late strapped to the TM's wrist at the first unstaffed station stop. It can also work the other way of course with trains departing early - which is probably worse!

One of the great innovations Chris Green brought in when he was  head of NSE was every platform fitted with a synchornised digital flap clock. Solely to aid timekeeping and prevent arguments. Travelling around the old NSE I see some TOCS have removed these valuable aids to timekeeping.

By these clocks some trains from Taplow are moving up to 30 secs early. Booked running time Maidenhead Taplow 4 minutes, easily done in 2.5.

Just a query are the early departures  at Nailsea booked to pick up? If they are then early departure are as Inspector Blakey posted "sloppy working".

Wessex trains issued us with these watches! I agree that leaving early is totally unacceptable!

They are normal stops. It's sloppy working. In the example that started this thread, it's simply that staff haven't (on several occasions) checked what time it was due to leave, and assume that as soon as the pax have got off and on, then it must be time to depart.

 

At Durham station, the two "digital flap" clocks (which are still more prominent than the ones on the PISs) are out of sync by about 20s! (one on each platform) Perhaps they want the London trains departing earlier...

The reason most of these have gone, is due to TOCs putting in PISs, where I assume the clocks are linked to a central base and are all the same. (wishful thinking?)

PS: I prefer analogue on clocks - you can "see" the time, which involves less thought than reading and converting a digital 24 hour time.

I find a 24hr clock much easier to use that an analogue particularly when it comes down to accuracy. The second hand on an analogue clock doesn't necessarily change at 00.00

I have been with FGW just over a year and had a digital RC watch issued.  I'm amazed that drivers & TMs still have analogue watches.

I've experienced the complete opposite this week, where the departure time on the CIS is 3-4mins early compared to TRUST and crew diagrams, and as a result, some guards have refused to leave until their 'diagrammed' time even though the CIS is showing otherwise.  Of course officially the train leaves RT, but it looks unprofessional to customers looking out the window at the CIS!

The "skips" have different TRUST timings than on the departure screens.

24 digital watches are better for despatch/guards, seeing as train times are done in this fashion and SECOND accuracy is needed.

I find analogue perfect for "to the nearest minute" needs. (and I hate the 24 hr clock, what's wrong with am/pm?)

Some thoughts on dispatching trains from staffed stations:

The old NSE clocks are fine when they work, but are becoming increasingly problematic, which is why some have been painted over. They are very difficult and expensive to fix, so why bother when the CIS is shows the correct time.

The systems that control these and the CIS clocks are both linked to the "atomic" clock, so should show the same time. However, when one system goes wrong, confusion sets in. The worse possible situation is to have two clocks showing different times. If it does happen, then platform staff usually go by the clock showing the later time, providing of course that this is not obviously completely wrong. I know from experience that platform staff are acutely aware of clocks showing different times, if only by a few seconds. The logical solution is to only have one time source.

Platform staff need digital clocks. They work to the "doors will be locked 30 seconds before" rule and will start the dispatch as the clock ticks over.

Early dispatches from staffed stations are very rare. Sometimes by accident - for example on Platforms 4 and 5 at Reading where trains are streaming through, and usually they have to be dispatched as quickly as possible, so an early arrival can catch you out. Usually though an early dispatch is the result of an instruction from Control. It happens when an on time train is being immediately followed by a late runner, so dispatch the on time train early and get the late runner in and out quickly. Most of the time its not a problem for customers, although there are situations where customers journeys are clearly disrupted. There are situations where a regulation error by a signaller might cause trains to arrive in the wrong order, so an early dispatch might be ordered to minimise the overall impact.

There are of course two timetables: the PTT (Public) and the WTT (Working). They usually differ by at most a couple of minutes. TOCs like the PTT to show clockface departures, but the WTT reflects what is actually possible. Platform staff and guards attempt to dispatch trains in accordance with the PTT, which should concur with the times showing on the CIS system.

Very occasionally there is a cock up (often at times when services are altered for engineering work), and the WTT and the PTT can be significantly different. Usual practice then is to adhere to the PTT, although this is not always possible.

My experience at unstaffed stations is that most guards (or drivers if DOO) try to stick to the PTT, although clearly this is not universally achieved.

From comments I've heard the drivers Schedule Cards increasingly now only carry the WTT times. I really don't see the need for them to show those unless they are markedly different from the PTT times. It causes confusion and delay.

Well, here's my two cents' worth on the issue of watches...

Analogue watches are perfectly good for telling the time accurately; in my "other" life as a guard one of the items my company's rule book requires me to have when on duty is a watch showing the correct time. I use an analogue watch (these days some are even available with second hands, what will they think of next?  :D), set it by the talking clock or the time signal and can tell the time to the second! Mine is the Mondaine Swiss Railways design which is exceptionally clear and easy to read at a glance.

The idea that you can't be accurate to within more than a couple of minutes using an analogue watch is a bit silly!

I agree totally with vacman that not "waiting time" and departing early (unless this has been ordered by control for a very good reason) is sloppy working and there's no excuse for it. That's why I always tell FGW when I experience it, although it doesn't seem to be taken very seriously.

Why do they?

("Skips"  ;D)

The train that caused me to start this thread left Nailsea 4 minutes early again tonight.

However, can anyone explain this? This service appears to have left Nailsea 17 minutes early and then Yatton around 27 minutes early. Although this is an arrivals board, it's showing on the departure board for Nailsea as having left 17 early as well.

The last service also has extended booked times which I'm guessing might be due to engineering work. But it all appears a bit unsatisfactory. 


LIVE ARRIVALS:
23:01 WESTON-SUPER-MARE TO TAUNTON
First Great Western
As of: Monday 6 April 2009 22:20:17
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Service times are drawn from an automated system. Whilst this is the most up to date information it is subject to some potential limitations. Click here to check potential limitations.

This train is expected to arrive on platform 2.
Expected to arrive Weston-super-Mare on time.
Expected to depart Weston-super-Mare on time.


Back to Arrivals
Weston-super-Mare Station Information
Service Bulletins affecting Weston-super-Mare

STATION TIMETABLE EXPECTED ACTUAL
Bristol Temple Meads Dep21:55 _ On time
Bedminster Dep21:58 _ On time
Parson Street Dep22:05 _ 22:01
Nailsea & Backwell Dep22:26 _ 22:09
Yatton Dep22:41 _ 22:14
Worle Dep22:47 On time _
Weston Milton Dep22:55 On time _
Weston-super-Mare (Your station) Arr22:59 On time _
Dep23:01 On time _
Highbridge & Burnham Arr23:11 On time _
Bridgwater Arr23:19 On time _
Taunton Arr23:34 On time _

The service in question is shown in timetable book E (p. 20 in the printed version, which is p. 14 of the online version). It carries note EW: "Train is frequently affected by engineering work. Please check times before travelling".

When I put the details into the National Rail journey planner, it comes up with the following calling points and times for tomorrow night (Tue 07 Apr):

21:58  Bedminster
22:01  Parson Street
22:09  Nailsea & Backwell
22:15  Yatton
22:21  Worle
22:25  Weston Milton
22:30  Weston-super-Mare
22:41  Highbridge & Burnham
22:49  Bridgwater

So, for some reason the live departure system seems to be operating (erroneously) to the printed timetable, whilst the service itself has been running more or less as booked in the rail journey information system, or whatever it's called these days.

As an aside, the last service between BRI and EXD (2145 off PAD, 2335 off BRI) would be entirely within its rights to leave early, as all intermediate stations on this leg of the journey are note "s": set down only.

I see your point but the actual departure times are the ones which show in the published timetable.

I am guessing that there was some engineering work planned and then cancelled and the wrong times were left in the live departure board system.

It is not a very reliable system.  Last year for example on boxing day it was showing trains for Reading and that they were on time.

It often also fails to report. Torquay doesn't report for example.

Wessex crew often say occasionally late NEVER EARLY leaving too early is disciplinable......     Personally I was taught to drive by a true professional who sayd anyone can arrive early it takes skill to arrive on time.
When I notice or experience extra running time I adjust my approach speed accordingly as the TM is often busy and distracted and used to "in and out" schedules, working as a team is essential! Also if I notice TM giving ready to start before time I contact/signal TM, again Team Work..... The TM is only telling the driver station duties complete and train safe and secure for departure ............ it takes two to leave early !

that's my tuppence ha'pennies worth any road up.....

I went to Plymouth today.  I returned to Newton Abbot on the 17:23 XC Voyager.  This was due to leave Newton Abbot at 18:03.  We arrived at 18:00 and at 18:01 the dispatch procedure started.  The train manager didn't seem to look at the clock and the train started moving at 18:02.  This must be a bit unfair on anyone that arrived on the platform at the last minute.

Shouldn't happen but occasionally does. I've seen DOO trains despatched from Oxford fully 3 minutes early before now. Possible that this had been ordered by control for some reason, but if not it's just sloppy operating and there's no excuse for it.

I've previously reported here trains leaving Nailsea up to 3 minutes early when they are booked (for some strange reason which I could never work out) to dwell for longer than normal there.

how long is the recomended connection time..............

At Nailsea...? ;)

According to National Rail (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/nls/details.html): "5 minutes (minimum)"!   ;D

Same for Redland station - which only has one platform!

As the station staff use the bat or bardic lamp to say "platform duties complete" to the guard, I would have thought the guard should still check the clock and refuse to accept dispatch for an early departure.

12:20 Waterloo to Temple Meads today !


(http://i49.tinypic.com/6ektjs.jpg)

Though of course 'doors will be closed 1 minute/30 seconds before departure' technically means that the train has left early for those who cannot get on last minute.

I hope this doesn't open up a whole can of worms, but actually (and it's always been this way) the departure time of a train is exactly that - the time at which is it scheduled to depart, pull out, leave, etc. It does not indicate the last opportunity for boarding.

Ut oh... Good luck  ;D

Seriously though, we are now up to 40 seconds dispatch time, so in theory a train can easily be leaving before the seconds hit :00, so it is invariably I would have thought that a train could be showing departed "1 Early" when it's only seconds.

As for the 2 minute early example at Andover, I can only assume an error on the Guards part.

Or possibly an erroneous report.  Locations which rely on manual reports from signallers are occasionally wrong due to the signaller entering the wrong time, and even some automatic reports can be dubious as some signal sections don't lend themselves well to reporting the exact time of departure, especially when there's no signal at the end of the platform. 

Banbury was always a case in point there as I believe the automatic report was based on the time the train passed the second signal after the up/bay platform (the section signal onto the mini-panel which covers the Aynho Junction area) with a 2-minute deduction added to allow for the time taken to reach that signal.

The fact is though that the dispatch procedure for the train I talked about above was started at 18:01 when the train was due to leave at 18:03, so anyone arriving at this time would have been unable to board.  I could understand someone arriving at 18:02 missing the train due to the need to start the procedure to ensure an on time departure but that was not the case this time.

Very true... i've had calls regarding delays on the Barnstaple branch, which have turned out to be a key-stroke error entering manual times.

Here's another example from today, not of a train leaving early but the poor quality of the reports:
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/733/screenshotuj.jpg)
Apparently it teleported from Severn Beach to St Andrews Road, before jumping to Shirehampton then back to Avonmouth.  Same for Redland & Montpelier - apparently called before it had even arrived at Clifton Down.

NRE interprets info it gets from TRUST which runs off the signalling systems. Its a basic system so as such if a location in TRUST does not send info, then it can't really handle that so will just put "On Time"

Between Severn Beach and Bristol Temple Meads the following locations don't report on TRUST:
St Andrews rd
Shirehampton
Sea Mills
Redland
Montpellier
and
Bristol East Jn

Hence the discrepancies.

Things may have changed but NRE will normally say "No Report" when one isn't received.