Great Western Coffee Shop

Was at Newton Abbot near the vendor on platform 2, lots of kids using it - one said "if you spend all your money you won't be able to get a train ticket"...responce was..."I don't give a shxt they can't chuck me off the train".

Coming up to Devon this morning no ticket checks were done despite it being a saturday, train full of shoppers and kids out for the day and no barriered stations in Cornwall.
I was intending to go to Exmouth and could have got there for and EXD-EXM fare.
The return journey was equally as busy but the TM managed to grip 8 carriages between every station including Camborne to St Erth where I didn't see anyone board.
 

Edit - to change subject line of thread - Graham

This happened to me, (youths who had no cash/ticket, but were sporting brand new trainers and were highly abusive to boot),  twixt Brizzle n Bath the other day.  At Bath, I spotted 2 stalwarts of the BTP on the platform.  After a quick word, they marched the 'offenders' off the train to verify identity and gain personal details so that parents of the little darlings could be made responsible for the cost of the journey.  Salutary lesson for their many peers on train, all of whom coughed up without hesitation.

BTP don't necessarily like to get involved in such events.  (Check out this forum http://www.policespecials.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t84842.html), but they did a great job in highly visible policing on that occasion.

I travelled on an NXEA service to Stansted Airport. I was sitting in First Class with a few other passengers, Some of them saw the Ticket Inspector walking down the train checking tickets. So they got up and moved to the vestibules. After the Ticket Inspector checked First Class and the passengers who had moved to the vestibules, he went on to check the rest of the train. Once he was safely out of view, all those passengers who were in the vestibule, came and sat back down in First Class!

In all honesty I always make sure I have a ticket for travel. If I don't have one I find the TM to purchase a ticket, 99% of which are more than happy to sell me a ticket. The remaining 1% ask very suttley if i'm travelling to a gated station and tell me to get a ticket when I get there.

Interesting comments in the light of a journey I made yesterday with some friends, one of whom is current and another recently retired FGW staff. We travelled from St Pancras to Loughborough return and they commented on how efficient the EMT conductors were with revenue protection (both carried out a full ticket check after each calling point) compared to their FGW colleagues, citing poor staff motivation at FGW.

Now, I know this isn't the whole story because a number of FGW's train managers and conductors are very, very good both at making themselves visible and accessible to the punters during the journey and also revenue protection. However it does strike me that ticket checks, particularly on high speed services, are becoming less frequent: I would say (and of course this is only anecdotal evidence, possibly skewed by the fact that I usually travel at the weekend) that my ticket is only checked on-board between Oxford and Bristol on a minority of journeys.

I've travelled often enough to recognize many of the HSS guards and can now predict reasonably accurately whether my ticket will be checked as soon as I see the conductor or train manager in charge: whilst many are enthusiastic and efficient a large number just never check. Presumably this is noted by higher authority as those staff will repeatedly not pay in any money from Avantix transactions. But the situation doesn't seem to change.

I can see two obvious arguments these staff might make for not checking tickets (apart from the issue of antisocial behaviour on late-night trains, where I absolutely sympathize): barriers and safety-critical duties. I don't think the barriers argument holds water as there are still many ungated stations or those where barriers are left open in the evenings. Although my tickets are checked at the barriers both in Oxford and Bristol this does not preclude the possibility of "dumbbelling" by buying two short-distance singles that would cover me for each end of the journey.

The safety-critical aspect of the guard is of course of paramount importance (and someone in my position ought to understand it much better than the vast majority of passengers) but last time I took a rules exam sitting in first class drinking tea or chatting with the customer host weren't defined as vital duties that a guard must carry out! If many guards can manage a full ticket check most of the time then why can't the significant minority who don't seem to be bothered?

It's basicly down to a lack of discipline, the lazy ones get away with it so they carry on being lazy, yes safety of the train comes first but revenue protection comes before sitting in coach F drinking tea, hopefully the rumours are true that now FGW have many extra guards than before they may start actually chasing up people who sit on their arse all day, one manager recently told me that a shake up is on the way...... and you know what happens when I post rumours on here, they usually come true!!  ;D

Ticket checks are very relaxed on VT Services. I travelled from Liverpool right down to London Euston in FC without any ticket check whatsoever.

I have noted that London Midland are quite hot on ticket checks and revenue protection, but they do it from my experience in a friendly and polite way. I travelled recently with them from Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street, The Train Manager came and saw I was busy doing some network design in Microsoft Visio, and happily left me too it and checked my ticket at a later time. Which I thought was very accomodating and understanding.

I have noticed however on XC services they announce when they are going to do a ticket check, which gives ample time for fare dodgers to remove themselves from FC or take a lengthly toilet break :-\

I've lost count of the number of journeys between Reading and Swansea I've made with no ticket check at all - that's nearly 3 hours. Bizarrely though I've almost always been checked travelling in the opposite direction!

Since ticket barriers have been installed at Bath and London, HSS ticket checks have fallen off.  Once upon a time, you would be checked on every train (and in the days when you could buy a full -price ticket on the train, the TM sold a few tickets per coach and still covered the whole train).  Now - sometimes you get checked and someties not.  I know that collaration is not the same as causality, but one of the reasons I dislike ticket barriers is that they appear to have lead to less checking on the trains.

That's because 'collaration' isn't a real word.

Whilst i agree there seesm to be less checking, I did have the pleasure to witness 2 policeman escorting a new trainer wearing stroppy 'yoof' of the train at bridgewater - I presume the train crew radioed ahead from highbridge where the little darling got on and started swearing whilst refusing to buy a ticket

Bridgwater is near the top of the Premier League of fare evasion hotspots.  Other strong contenders are Trowbridge and Gt Malvern/Malvern Link.  Although I don't get that far, I know that some of the Cornish stations also have major problems.

At times of light traffic, I know of guards who will only open the local door at these stops and thus check tickets before allowing potential scrotes to board.

It is a constant battle, I would say that I encounter some form of attempted fraud on around 80% of trains. 

One thing I have noticed in First Class on HSS is that the customer host sometimes checks the tickets and removes offenders who don't have the appropriate ticket. Occasionally the TM will make it down FC and will normally want to see my ticket just at the punch line of the film I was watching on my laptop ;)

I would agree with G.Uard on this one regarding Bridgwater and Trowbridge being top of the league for fare evasion. But the problem I have noted at Trowbridge is that the ticket machines got badly vandalised. I believe one has been reinstalled. But you get people arriving at Trowbridge Ticket Office wanting to book tickets for a weeks time, hence people travelling on the day aren't able to get a ticket. As I have said in other threads, people might not bother with the ticket machine option simply because they can't be ar*ed.

Whilst i'm not justifying boarding a train without a ticket, Sometimes people don't have an option because they can't actually get a ticket. But I think there is a certain level of discretion to be had, and Guards I find are normally able to judge who is the fare dodger and who isn't ;D

Thanks for remembering to mention that - I was about to dive in and defend the good people of Melksham who have no choice.

As I've mentioned before, all credit to the guards who trust me - and presumably several others like me - who inform them when they join the train at Melksham that they will be disembarking and collecting pre-booked tickets at Chippenham or Westbury before travelling on to London.

It's not usually that difficult to weed out the bilkers from the honest traveller.  If a passenger rushes to the extreme front of the train on boarding, spends 30 minutes locked in the loo, or attempts to buy a Child ticket for their own use with a credit card, (yep, it happens regularly), we have a pretty good idea that something is rotten in the kingdom of Wessex.  There is more to it than that though, body language, furtive glances, unease.  I guess that policemen have a more highly developed version of this instinct and it works...most of the time.

Yesterday I had a young lady who had lost the return half of her ticket. She was visibly distressed and hauled out the outward half, plus a week's worth of previous tickets, (both portions), to show me.  Strictly speaking, I should have issued a further ticket, but as it was odds on that she was genuine, I couldn't see the point of upsetting her further, particularly as it was highly likely that she had paid.  It's good to be able to use discretion, especially when it can also help score a PR goal.

Unless I consider that a deliberate attempt to avoid payment is being made, I will always offer the full range of available tickets to passengers boarding from manned/machine equipped stations without them.

Just a word ref Trowbridge.  Whilst there is sometimes a lack of opportunity to purchase tickets beforehand, there seems to be a culture in this area which attempts to avoid payment at all cost. When I take fares for single stop journeys, I frequently get passengers who say, "you're not going to charge me for that are you?"  Worse still are the single stoppers who get on with no money or no intention of paying.  Almost impossible to counter without checking tickets at the local door.  This in turn delays the train and hacks off those who do want to pay or already have tickets, particularly if it is raining.

Which causes problems for those of us that do it by the book, and gives out a mixed, inconsistent message to customers, you may sell them a cheap ticket one day so they think it's ok to do it all the time, then the next day the same customer gets charged a full fare ticket from the same station then you haven't really done anything for good customer service, you've just put your colleague the next day in a position of confrontation. At the end of the day if the customer chooses to walk past a big yellow sign that in no uncertain terms tells you that you must have a ticket before boarding then thats up to them! Stations with JUST a TVM and no booking office are slightly different, the main problem with the above is that you can't sell an SDS to a scrote who didn't buy his ticket before boarding one side then go to the next person and sell them a CDS just because they look different, everyone has to be treated the same

 vacman

I hear what you are saying and agree to a point.  I don't claim to have superhuman powers, but it is often possible to sort the scrote from the genuine passenger. Surely better to use discretion and thus avoid hacking off the vast majority of law abiding pax.  It is a minefield and applying the law to the letter also risks the passenger refusing to pay for a single point blank.  A colleague had this the other day.  BTP became involved and quietly suggested that the passenger be issued with a return to save bother.

I don't begin to claim to have all the answers, but until the Penalty Fare license issue is sorted,  I feel that some discretion is warranted.  Perhaps this problem should be put to senior management and a comprehensive, well publicized and easy to follow cast iron ruling be given to settle the question once and for all.  I know what the Ts & Cs say, but in any court of law, the first principal the judge will examine will be that of reasonableness.

I should add that I always point out that strictly speaking, etc etc etc you should have purchased beforehand.


Edited for typos :-[

A risk, but not if the cheap ticket could comes with a warning that the TM is bending the rules and that you might not be able to get away with it in the future. 

I'm not saying don't use disgression but to offer them what they wan't nearly all of the time isn't disgression it's just looking for an easy life, one thing that hacks me off is when I charge someone up and they say "but I've travelled every day this week and they've sold me these"......  pulling out hundreds of Off-peak returns with railcard discounts from quite major stations such as Taunton and Truro! Disgression is for stations such as Camborne where one person has to dispatch trains, sell tickets and everything else and where theres no TVM, not for stations that have more than ample ticket issuing facilities where the responsibilty really must lie with the customer.
As for standing up in court, well there have been many a case that FGW have prosecuted where people who have flatley refused to pay an SOS - or buy a new ticket when no railcard held etc where FGW have won, in fact I don't ever recall seeing one that FGW lost, and like I say, it's very bad customer service to be inconcistent and give out mixed messages.
If someone does make the effort to come and find me on the train if they are late or whatever or they see me on the platform then I will sell them the cheaper ticket, but if they come up at the last second and just get on and sit down (usually at the opposite end to me!!) then they get the full whack!

isn't that doing exactly what G.Uard does.  Using judgement and common sense to separate out who is genuine and who is a fraud?

http://www.english-for-students.com/Disgression-and-Discretion.html (http://www.english-for-students.com/Disgression-and-Discretion.html) (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/clown.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

I have NEVER been refused a ticket on a train - ever.  Bearing in mind I have a YP railcard and travel in first class, and I know what the advantix machines will do my experience is this:

1. London Midland - impose the rules - no YP discount on train (but I still get it there cos I'm normally running late) - Kiddie is I think a penalty fare station - never had one, never, nada

2. First Great WEstern - depend on the train manager and on the cotswolds line I know the one(s) not to try it with - generally the attitude is - if the machine issues it, ill issue it.

3. Virgin - like london midland but still never been penaltied or full faired if a CDR was available

4. Arriva trains wales - dont know the rules - presumably as they dont have first class and dont bother learning.  Get nearly all my tickets on the ludlow/shrewsbury or ludlow/newport leg

Incidentally, even if I have a technically non valid YP discount on first class, bot one LM or Virgin TM (lets not mention FGW - saee above) has questioned it

I await the slating from the "rules are rules" people .......... it is not generally well known you cant get YP discount in first so if I were not here and I'd asked the question of a TM and sold one, id assume it ok.

"Tin hats on, everyone!"

(any chance of another topical smiley, TerminalJunkie?)  ;D

In my defence - I have NEVER tried to avoid paying - I have paid for every journey I take even if I have to go find a TM to get a ticket!

I have however been penaltied because it took me so long to find a parking space I had 30 seconds to get a ticket so didnt, could not find the TM on the train - I even checked my half of the train, got out and went looking in the other half - but the barrier staff still penaltied me.  This was SWT from I think if I remember, Egham to Putney.

I have however been in the position of the girl who lost her return leg - and I came across the same discretion - in my case because I went to FIND the TM and explain.  FGW in this case.

I've seen YP discount on First CDR before. The dude at Trowbridge Ticket Office assumed I had YP railcard and not DSB. But my Understanding was that YP isn't accepted as a discount in First Class. Please correct me if i'm wrong ;)

I'm the same as Mookiemoo and have never tried to avoid paying. I don't agree with Fare Dodging.

As I said in an earlier post. If I don't have a ticket for whatever reason, I will find the TM to get one.

As G.Uard has said, you can weed out the fare dodgers from the genuine passengers.

I remember travelling on an FGW service from Trowbridge, I didn't have a ticket because some old women couldn't decide whether to book train X or Y. Equally you could argue that I should have arrived at the station in good time, Well I did, 15 minutes before the train was due to leave. Beings as both TVM had been removed, I had no option but to get on the train ticketless :o I went to find the TM straight away, who issued me with a CDR with no trouble or questions. I later went up the train to obtain a cup of tea. Passed the very same TM giving a roasting to an obvious fare dodger.

I can also see vacman's point of view in people should have tickets from major stations. e.g. Bristol, Bath Spa and Taunton. Which is in theory is spot on, as their is multiple Ticket Issuing facillities. But equally if you need to extend your journey plans at short notice, the train your currently on is running late and you have a connection to make. It's not always possible.

I'm going to stop there before I unleash the hounds ::)

Can they refuse to sell a return on the train even if it is the most expensive return available?  I have heard of some guards only issuing the most expensive single and refusing to sell a return on train.

Its not officially allowed and im surprised that the Trowbridge office could issue one - in general, ticket office and TVM machines have the proper software and wont give YP discount on FC BUT the advantix machines the TM's use are not very bright and can if the TM asks them to.  In which case its up to TM discretion.

It is a minefield and attempting to offer the best possible customer service, whilst striving to maintain and protect company revenue streams is certainly not a recipe for an easy life.  I get enough hassle from results of those (thankfully few), 'ticket monsters' who will carpet bomb each carriage and sell the most tickets in the quickest time possible, regardless of status or entitlement

I haven't been on the railway very long and for me, each day is a learning experience.  I  have been in customer service most of my life though, (somewhere, I have a rusty degree in the laws surrounding such shenanigans).  I spent years in the travel industry, very much at the sharp end in the 'popular' Med resorts, but that doesn't mean that I am trying to rewrite the book.  Accordingly, this very afternoon I asked a Competence Manager what to do in such situations.  The reply was, "It's up to you".

Naturally, I will give most credence to the passenger who actively searches me out, or who has boarded at a station with a history of TVM problems, but trying to deal fairly and impartially with every situation is very possibly more difficult than adopting the inflexible approach.  It is not just a question of giving everyone what they want, but making a genuine judgement call each time and then sticking to your guns. We were taught Safety, Punctuality, Customer Service/PR, Revenue, in that order.  Whilst I would never take issue with vacman's years of experience, it seems to me that I am doing my best to follow the company mantra although I am open to argument from those in the know.

Edited for typos...again.  Well I have just finished a 10 hr shift. :D

(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/tinfoilhatsmile.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

A couple of points from me, if I may?

Firstly, I do have every sympathy with customer-facing staff, trying to deal appropriately with passengers who, whether through pure unfamiliarity or blatant intent, haven't bought a ticket when they could have done.

Secondly, I also have nothing but praise for the many FGW staff I have met on board my local trains, who have always been friendly and helpful when asked to sell me a ticket.

For example, last weekend, I took my family to Bath for a birthday celebration: I had checked the website to ascertain the fare beforehand but, not trusting my ability to purchase that combination from the TVM at Nailsea, I suggested we bought the tickets on board.  The friendly conductor pointed out that a group save was in fact cheaper, and sold us that - it was complete news to me, as I'm used to buying just my own commuter tickets.  What impressed us all was that the conductor had shown true 'customer service' in her actions - she could have just sold us the more expensive tickets I'd actually asked for, and I'd have been none the wiser (but rather poorer).

Well done FGW staff, I say!   ;) :D ;D

It has also just occurred to me that 99% of the fare evasion cases which reach court are run past the CPS by the Prosecutions Department/BTP.  As the CPS prefer 'nailed on' cases, it is hardly surprising that the conviction rate for such offences is so high.  I would be interested to know how many potential prosecutions fall by the wayside though and IMO, it is a pretty safe bet that a goodly part of these are slain by the doctrine of reasonableness.

Just look at the fiasco surrounding the attempted use of Electron/Solo Cards for ticket purchase on trains. 

(They cannot be processed by Avantix at present although they are acceptable in some TVMs and at booking offices). Unfortunately, it is clear that Scrotes in the know proffer these on a daily basis. However, it is difficult to prosecute and almost impossible to prove intent as it would be unreasonable to expect passengers to research enough to find the limitations on Electron, (and Solo) cards.

I am not suggesting everyone who tries to use these cards for on-board purchase is trying it on.  There is genuine and understandable confusion.  However, the Scrote brigade have caught on very quickly and are getting away with it.  At least we can take the number of the card towards ID verification when issuing the appropriate notice, although with data protection laws, (as in line with company policy, no crime is being committed), I am not sure that this is all that helpful.

Edited to include Solo Cards

Aren't they probably stolen or fake anyway - Googling 'Electron' doesn't produce many current results (mostly up to 2005).
Seems Chavs choice of card.
I get many mailshot offers of card but never Electron.

Best non-existent ticket I have ever been issued was a Moreton-in-Marsh to Oxford peak day return, with a Cotswold Railcard discount applied - try finding that one in the fares manual - issued at the barrier at Oxford by a revenue protection inspector using a Portis machine. He refused to sell me a CDR - "and I really shouldn't give you any discount either" saying that spending 10 minutes stuck behind a queue of people at moreton booking office who didn't know what ticket they wanted and not having seen the conductor throughout the journey was no excuse not to have a ticket.

I don't know what he would have said to anyone from Hanborough - this was in the days before the ticket machine arrived there - and the regular barrier staff always issue a CDR with the railcard discount, no questions asked.

Electron/Solo cards have a slightly unfair stigma attached to them.  They enable those who cannot get a standard debit card, (for a variety of reasons), to partake in the cashless revolution, (up to a point) and to buy stuff on line.   

When I returned to the UK some years ago, I took a temp job as a Customer Relations Manager with a department store chain.  We had frequent complaints from customers who couldn't use Electron for purchases, but a call to the bank and a minor software revision cleared the way almost overnight.

These cut-down cards are available to minors and I believe that they have a special numbering system, which can alert licensed premises if they are offered in payment for alcohol.

However, I can only speculate why Avantix will not process these cards, perhaps a security risk has been identified.

My understanding is that with Electron and Solo unlike credit cards you can't spend money that you don't have, and unlike ordinary debit cards you can't spend into your overdraft (they are attached to a "basic" account without overdraft factilities).  They tend to be used by people who don't want to go into debt (or who the banks don't want to go into debt) either because they are under 18 or deemed a bad credit risk.

The only way that the POS terminal can ensure that you are in credit is by dialing through to the bank in real time and checking your account before authorising the sale (the trade mark "Electron" is supposed to allude to electrons wizzing down the wire to authorise your purchase).  No problem at stations with fixed phone lines, but on trains it would require a reliable wireless signal at all times (including in tunnels etc).  I suspect that this is why Advantix doesn't process them (???).  Alternatively FGW may have decided to to accept them because the card fee being charged by the bank is too high (this is the main reason why American Express is not as widely accepted as Visa, although I note FGW take Amex)

This is because unlike credit cards you can't go into debt on them and thereby earn lots of interest for the banks.  They tend to offer them to folk who they don't want to lend to.  They must deem you an acceptable credit risk

I should have explained that Avantix, when in card mode, (as used on FGW), is Bluetoothed  to a Dionne Chip & Pin reader which seeks authorisation for each transaction and will decline cards if necessary.

Problem is that the Dionne is a temperamental pile of ****. The system can however, be over-ridden in case of (frequent), failure, by swiping the magnetic strip on a card through the actual Avantix machine and 'theoretically' obtaining telephone authorisation for the transaction.  I have done this a few times when processing a high value transaction via swipe.  It takes ages.

I guess the lack of an overdraft buffer as explained above and the reluctance of operators to seek authorisation for a small transaction is one reason why these cards are not accepted on trains

This is a common misconception.  The Dionne Chip & Pin redaer does not seek authorisation.  It merely checks that the pin is correct.  It will decline cards against a list it holds in its memory which is updated each time the advantix is returned to the base station.

That is why is still works going through a tunnel !!

As in my previous post to process an electron card you must have authorisation from the bank for each purchase which Advantix cannot do.  Hence they cannot be used on train.

FGW do accept them at ticket offices however.

Thanks STM, that explains a lot. I now have another wrinkle. ;D

Still doesn't help with the issue of fare evasion when customers proffer these cards for payment in full awareness that they are not valid for on-train ticket purchase though. :(

Yes but what revenue do is give a warning the first time they try to buy the ticket on the train with such cards.  Keep the details and then the next time they prosecute.  The passenger cant reasonbly say that they did not know because they have already been warned.

OK for the RP teams but we get this on a daily basis, often from the same Scrote and usually for a stupidly small fare. There is a memo from RP, (explaining the legal perspective), on the wall of GCR depot telling us to treat all incidences of this problem as ticket irregularity.

Firstly, FGW don't use the CPS to prosecute, they are the only TOC that has it's own prosecutions unit, based at Reading, they also prosecuted for Transpennine express, most fare evasion cases wouldn't be touched by the CPS as they are to minor.

As for the Electron or Solo scam, well you CAN be prosecuted for only having this as a means of payment if joining from a staffed station or infact a station with an operational TVM, good old byelaw 18 which is something like "any person who joins a train for the purpouse of travelling, from a station which has ticket issuing facilities must be in possession of a valid ticket before joining" so TECHNICLY anyone from a manned station without a ticket can be done for that one, I think Penalty fares ride on the back of this byelaw, obviously you couldn't prosecute everyone and it wouldn't be right to do so anyway BUT it is handy for the scrotes with solo/electron cards, however, this byelaw is a "lazy" one as you don't need to prove any intent so the BTP usually use it for scrotes as it saves the paperwork..problem is, as it's a byelaw then you'll never get more than a ^50 fine and you won't get a criminal record!

The Theft Act 1968  relies on intent and any prosecution under it must satisfy that criteria.  By-law offences are a little different as pointed out, but whilst making some aspects of this problem clear, the extent of the minefield is shown by the responses this thread has generated.

I have managed to get hold of a Dine manual BTW.  These beasts can operate in polling or online mode and have the capability to contact card issuers in real time from a remote location.  Frankly I am puzzled why pins are accepted and transactions declined because although the terminal will store all transaction info until it is connected to the bank at end of shift, there does not appear to be any facility to store dodgy card details.  The PDA can do this though.  I need to ask around.

Persons suspected of fare eveasion are prosecuted under section's 5.3 a, b and c of the regulation of railways act 1889 and not the theft act, it is a quite serious offence being level 3 (so is imprisonable).
Proving the intent of fare evasion is not as difficult as people may think, when RPI's do a barrier block i've seen them outside the station beyond the booking office so that anyone coming off a train who they catch there has proved the intent by walking past the booking office (their last chance to pay) and when they are stopped they have left without paying thus the intent is proved "if you had not been stopped then how would your fare have been paid?" if they say "i'd have paid later" then they are admitting that they would not have paid before leaving railway property.

Update on the Dione, (for anyone really interested) :).  To be used on-line, they need a SIM, which sits inside the battery compartment like a GSM phone.  As ours don't have the SIM, it means that they don't dial out, (just as STM explained above), and thus operate in polling mode only.  I believe, though am not certain, that the bank info is held on the PDA and not the Dione itself.  These 2 chat via Bluetooth during transactions.  As this is a highly arcane area, it is possible that my info is not 100% accurate, but this is really a side theme to the main event of fare evasion.  Thanks tho to STM for putting me on the right track re credit card authorisations.


With regard to the legal position, a little research has shown that minor prosecutions can be and are generally, though not exclusively, brought under s5 RRA 1889 by competent in house staff or the CPS, depending on the franchise.  However these are for summary offences, i.e. 'basic' fare evasion, (triable only by Magistrates).  Nevertheless, a conviction under s5 does result in a criminal record, so the standard of proof, (which will include reasonableness), is set correspondingly high.

I am therefore happy to concede that vacman had the most of the right of this debate, but in my defence I was originally looking to illustrate the concept of reasonableness. 

A little more internet research throws up that FGW are not alone in having a prosecutions unit, (for summary offences). TFL and I believe parts of London Midland also have this facility, although it seems that across all these units, prosecutions are not encouraged unless 'nailed on', due to the costs and complexity of appeals procedures etc. 



Finally...

The Theft Act 1978, especially Sections 2 and 3, can be used where there is evidence of premeditation, or persistence, or repeat offending, or large loss by the transport authority. Where tickets have been forged, altered or defaced resulting in a charge under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, the matter would have to be referred to Crown Prosecution Service or the Rail Company will need to engage appropriate legal representation as these are "either or offences" for which any person accused may elect to trial by jury.

Thats quite interesting G.Uard :) Would be useless on a Voyager though, you'd be forever issuing tickets in the "Rubber" part of the train where I have recently been informed is the best place for a mobile signal ;D (Tried and tested, it works ;D )

In theory if they connect via BlueTooth, you could put BlueTooth Access Points throughout the train and have a secure VPN link on a WWAN connection. This could then offer passengers WiFi on trains. Providing someone who is "Smart" sets it up, it could be made very secure indeed ;D

Sorry for going off topic, but technology in the workplace interests me. I'm an IT/Network Engineer so I do get quite interested in it all ;D

You are quite correct about forged seasons etc, but general fare evasion is dealt with by the team at Reading, I think FGW and FTPE are the only TOCs that have any great number of PACE (Police And Criminal Evidence act 1984) trained inspectors that can caution and interview fare evadors, by FGW having these and the prosecutions unit saves the tax payer money!

http://www.atoc-comms.org/dynamic/toc-press-story/999900/Silverlink-Ticket-Inspectors-pass-PACE-training

Apologies for '2 in a row', but I think this is relevant.

Last week, RPI teams did a block at Filton Abbey Wood during the morning peak.  In around 2 hours, they checked 600 plus travellers and found over 260 ticket irregularities. 

Without an agile ATE (Assistant Ticket Examiner) to help, it is quasi impossible for a conductor get through the jam packed commuter trains from GCR to BRI after leaving Yate.  Similarly, on the way up from BRI, the extreme proximity of Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road, make ticket checking very difficult indeed, as the guard is needed at the DKS panel.

Yes we need more RPIs, booking office staff and working TVMs, but we also need a cultural change with regard to fare evasion by the general public.  Many of those 'caught' at Filton were students, but by no means all.

On my recent visit to Mumbai, I was told of a railway court which sits in the station building at Churchgate I believe.  Swift and summary justice for fare dodgers on an almost industrial basis. ;)

That's a very interesting statistic - are you able to tell us any more.  In particular:

a) Where the 600 selected completely at random, was it everyone leaving the station, or was it targeted based on a formal or informal profile of "type of person" - perhaps "type likely to be irregular"

b) Of the 260 irregularities, how many were 'intent to defraud', and how many were other links like people not understanding all the rules, or tickets that had been damaged to were technically irregular even though they had been paid for?

We will only get this if the chances of getting caught increase, which requires more TVM, RPI etc. 

It will also be neccessary to avoid a backlash from the reasonably honest majority.  This means clear and reasonable rules (ie a standard meaning of "off peak" - why not print it on the ticket?, standardarised rules on break of journeys etc), reasonable and much less complex fares and good ticket purchasing opertunities.  Staff descretion cuts both ways - it is the reasonable response to genuine customers struggling with a  system that they barely understand but it does undermine the cultural change that we want to see.  You would need much less decretion if it was easier for the fairly honest majority to play by the rules.

A couple of months ago I was travellling from Bath to Oxford on a Off Peak day return (as I think it was called).  Ticket was checked on the Didcot- Oxford Turbo at about 1 pm.  I asked the Guard checking my ticket if there if my ticket was valid for a retune during rush hour or if there were times I should avoid.  After several minutes of playing with his Advantix machine the reply came - "I don't know, you should ask at the station".  At the station, I was in a hurry so jumped in a cab without checking.  Coming back in the peak, the automatic gate accepted my ticket so I assumed it was valid and boarded the train.  Ticket was checked on board and presumably found to be valid.  Now if it hadn't been, I would have been liable to a penalty/fine or prosecution.  If that had happened I would have been entitled to feel a bit annoyed with FGW for employing staff who were unable to help me keep out of trouble.  Sure the offense would have been my fault, but FGW would have lost my goodwill.  (in actual fact it is my understanding now that my ticket was valid and that there is no evening restriction on off peak day returns with FGW although other TOCs have them - how stupidly complicated is that?! - if the Guard had told me that my ticket had no evening restrictions I might have made the reasonable assumption that this applied to all tickets of that type and got cuaght out on the next FCC train I caught)

Some fare dodgers are threatening yobs who should be dealt with harshly and wil not buy a ticket until they are, but there are also plentry of what I would call fairly honest ordinary people (and most people, myself included are fairly honest - will not cheat as a matter of course but might be pursuaded to do so occasionally if the incentives and disincentives make sense).  Fairly honest people will usually try their best to get a valid ticket, but sometimes will get caught out with complicated rules and restrictions.  Those people deserve some descretion because the rules and restrictions are not their fault (and not always reasonable).  If you simplified the rules and restrictions and made them uniform then you would need less dercetion and the "always have a valid tciket" message would be delivered to the public much more clearly and you might get your cultural shift.

Although a penalty fare can certainly be issued for travelling using a discounted ticket on a restricted train, I would be surprised if a prosecution was brought. To my mind it would be very difficult to prove intent to avoid payment given how arcane many ticket restrictions are. However, I suspect the situation would be different if you were told by rail staff that your ticket was not available on a particular train because you would then be knowingly pulling a fast one.

For future reference, I checked the fares manual and  BTH - OXF off-peak day return has restriction L8 (no, really!), valid out by any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0915 and return by any train, so no problems with your journey.

Can't tell you too much more I'm afraid.  The RP Standards Manager who told me of this did mention that it was everyone that they checked, presumably when lack of ticket or a proffered ticket with some point of interest was encountered.  I will ask, but I can tell you that conductors at GCR sometimes carry out blocks under guidance from RP.  Our figures, though not as alarming still give cause for concern.  It is not unknown for two operators to take over ^400 in unpaid fares in around 90 mins of peak period work.  Several would be dodgers are also intercepted on their way in to the station and diverted to the ticket office. We do have the added bonus of seeing wannabe scrotes hopping over the fence behind Platform 2 as consolation though.  ;D

Thanks for checking.  I'm right in thinking that some off-peak returns do have evening restrictions though aren't I?  Seems stupid to have gone through a process of "fare simplifcation" which started using the terms "peak" and "off-peak" but then having different definitions of what these mean depndinging on the jounrey taken TOC involved type of ticket (ie off peak returns teh old savers do have evening restrictions) .  I know the different resptictions were there with "savers" and "Cheap" tickets, but at least the old ticket names didn't give the false impression of clarity.

If the restrictions were less arcane intent to aviod restrictions that were straightforward and printed on the front of the ticket would be easy to prove, prosecution would be easier, fraudulent travel would fall and the "culture" would change.

When a block is carried out EVERYONE is checked (apart from the ones who jump fences etc), the "irregularities" were more than likeley no ticket, i.e. you've left the station without having paid your far, also people buying railcard tickets who don't have railcards.
One person who was caught at Glastonbury last year who had bought a railcard ticket but had no railcard (or no intention of having one) was fined ^525.00, ^130.00 costs and had to pay ^89.59 comp to FGW, thats an incentive not to do it!

From my point of view. The ticket restrictions are very confusing. I got caught out on the Tyne & Wear metro 18 months ago. I had a ticket which I had paid for before boarding, problem is it wasn't valid.

I walked up to a TVM and punched in a ticket to Newcastle. It told me the fare so I selected a day single and paid. I boarded the Metro at 08:58 (memory quite vague so take my timings with a pinch of salt ;) ) an RPI was onboard who saw me get on, and proceeded to check tickets. I had my ticket ready for inspection and was horrified and started to panic when I was told it wasn't valid. Apparently the reason was that off peak tickets weren't valid until 09:00 :o I immediately offered to pay the difference but the RPI insisted that it wouldn't be worth his bother for such a small difference. Politely said "Make sure you buy ticket X instead of Y when travelling before 09:00

This is all very well and good, I believe I had a lucky escape. But I had absolutely no idea that my ticket wasn't valid. Granted I should have checked out the tickets before travelling, except I had no Wireless Internet Access in the hotel room.

But I can see several things with that:

1) Had I have walked up to the next stop (about 1/2 mile away) I would have been able to use an Off Peak ticket without any issue.
2) Do you think it was justified to argue with a passenger over the difference of 2 minutes and about 50p?
3) Why didn't the ticket machine tell me I couldn't use the ticket on the 08:58, but sold the ticket to me at 08:45

Whilst I admit, hands down, that I was in the wrong. I think that alot of people get caught out simply because of lack of signage, TVM's instead of Humans etc. Equally had I have boarded a bus at 08:58 I would have highly likely been accepted using my Bus Pass which technically speaking, isn't valid until 09:00

Obviously i'm not justifying for every situation. I do think as Tim says, Honest Travellers get caught out simply because they don't know any different. I do remember inspector_blakey raising a similar concept in another thread with regards to the amount of tickets available between Bristol and Oxford (e.g. AP READING or NOT LONDON)

Restrictions need to be sorted out. TOCs need to meet and decide what "peak" means.

Central Trains had a policy of "Naming and shaming" where they would put up posters with the names and addresses of people who had been RPOed along with the total amount paid (often over ^1000).

Didn't some character decide to jump the fence (into a bush) at Castle Cary  :D

Yes, he hehe, and he was subsequently done for no ticket AND the byelaw of exiting a station via an unautharised exit, AND was cut to ribbons by the brambles!

Buses down here have dropped the peak nonsense.
I can purchase a 'Ride Cornwall' (train & bus ranger) ticket on an early bus but I can't on a train.
I can't buy a 'PlusBus' ticket on a bus.

In Cornwall there can't be any argument for a peak period to discourage overcrowding as there is none - it's purely a money grabbing exercise.

Today particularly annoyed me - I wanted to go to Torquay for a ride in the Balloon - paid ^9-90 for a railcarded CDR to get me on the 8:53 from St Erth which is off-peak (for some strange reason), however I'd forgotten that the 8:53 doesn't stop at Newton Abbot (change for Torquay) so I had to catch the 8:38 and buy a another ^6 peak ticket to get me to Truro which I guessed would be outside the peak.
Just as well I did - ticket was checked before we got to Hayle.

The madness is that the 8:53 is off peak out of St Erth but peak when it passes Camborne and Redruth (it used to be off-peak at Redruth but not now)

Sometimes I catch a bus from St Ives to St Erth to avoid the debate over whether I can have a CDR if I promise to catch the 8:53 and not the 8:38 (which costs me another ^2).

Life's too short for all of this - I get one day off a week and just want to travel as far away from work as possible (only possible by train) but I start out with a headache from all the planning.

The planning includes the weird new timetables.       
 

Was the baloon flying? Was quite windy in Brixham!0

GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! no it wasn't - second time I've been up for a go, first time it was foggy.

Came across an Electron problem at Exeter today, customer offered to pay for an EXD to EXM on the train !!
Conductor said no and didn't bother going into detail about why as he continued to quiz the customer about how he had managed to pass the barrier without a ticket.
His second customer also wanted a ticket from EXD to EXM, had cash but no explanation about getting through the barriers....is there a hole in the fence somewhere ???
I passed through the barriers twice and there were three vigilant staff there.

(I renewed my railcard at EXD and I must say the staff were exceedingly pleasant, also queried the appearance of a 6 car SWT which wasn't appearing on CIS - chap got on the radio immediately and saved me a wait - very good.)

I think it spends more time on the ground ;)

When I passed through Exeter earlier, barriers were in operation, so most mysterious indeed ;)

There is a certain unstaffed exit at Exeter Central that is a perfectly legal and authorised exit.

Found it purely by accident as well.

I must point out that I am not encouraging finding this little exit, and also I will point out as I have done in another post that I always have the appropriate ticket ;D

Not that the other exit at Central has barriers anyway. When a Revenue Block is on, both exits are monitored.

I presume you mean the footbridge? there are usually staff there aswell.

I very much dispute that peak time isn't busy in Cornwall! have you ever travelled on the 0737 from Penzance? or the 0702 from Plymouth? The 0853 off St Erth is off-peak throughout 0842 from Penzance.

There always used to be a way out by a little exit on the down platform. It leads up the side of the station to Queen St and not to the main entrance.  I think it it used to be an access for catering supplies when they had restaurant cars on the S.R.....

before even vacman's time  ;D

No idea if it is still there.

Yes it is still there.

I think it's the exit G.Uard mentioned, It's advertised as a "Step Free" exit for disabled passengers. I discovered it simply because I wanted to look at a Class 66 in the Bay Platform ;D

Technically, I know I should have used the main exit, so on my way out of the station, I discovered the huge queue, and decided against waiting in it to show my ticket, So I took myself along with my valid ticket to the authorised yet hidden exit :)

*disclaimer* If a poster feels that my post may encourage fare dodgers to use this exit, then I will happily remove it from my post ;D

You don't technically have to use either exit  ???

They are both entrances and exits to Exeter Central station...

I see your point. What I was trying to get at was the little exit is supposed to be there for people unable to use the stairs. But you are right, you can use the most convienient (sp?) exit. Which at the time was exactly what I did.

I feel particularly sorry for disabled passengers at Bath Spa trying to access the Step Free entrance to Platform 1. Simply because you would park in the car park, then have to go to the ticket office to get a ticket, then go all the way back to the step free entrance. Surely it would make sense for the gateline staff at the entrance to have an Avantix..??

Just a minor thought... ::)

I agree, but the station will shortly be getting lifts which I suspect will result in the car-park gates being locked.

IIRC it was everyone on platform 1, although I was running a bit late and they were going as I arrived. I'm not surprised at the percentages considering the loadings from Oldfield onwards. Even from Trowbridge there will be at least on day a week I won't be checked all the way to Filton.

You would need to do spot checks far more frequently then twice a year to change peoples attitudes.

Oh right, Yes I remember reading about that somewhere, Doesn't help short term though. The other problem with the current setup is the route from Platform 1 - Platform 2 isn't exactly wheelchair friendly. 2 Steep hills, bumpy and non existant pavements.

The station that always makes me laugh is at Chippenham, To get to the platforms you should ask a member of staff for help if you cannot use the stairs. Where are the staff normally located, In their office on the platforms ::) It's a lose-lose situation if the ticket office is closed!

I've highlighted this on here before and been shot down in flames. Chippenham is a disgrace to anyone less than fully able bodied (or carrying heavy luggage) - and telling us there's "plans to install a lift in the future" is quite frankly merely rubbing salt in the wounds.

Passing through Cornwall on my way to a day out in Exeter I had to suppress a choking laugh (I was eating breaky).
TM arrived and in a resigned sort of voice said...

"Tickets and excuses from Redruth please"

Ahh, I know what you're on about now... http://xkcd.com/552/ (http://xkcd.com/552/)

no its not. a tm does not have discretion to issue a 1st class ticket discounted with a YP card and go against the conditions of use.

Well - I have a huge collection of them issued by Arriva and all sorts of FGW TM's

Although I am curious as to the motivation of dragging this one up from the past

motivation??? lost me there.

your wrong in that they dont have discretion. however they like many others can chose to ignore the fact they shouldnt and just do it anyway....these type of people tend to be liked by people who quite enjoy the benefit of some staff chosing to ignore the rules.

Just seems a little ironic that this is dragged up given our differing views on the other thread.

What most honest passengers would like is a common sense approach not a jobsworth -these are the rules.  Take this example - happened to me on friday.

I left work early to wait for the bus from client to station.  The one I was waiting for had broken down. The choice I had was get a taxi (once the broken down issue became established) to the station and get the 1510 into Paddington to get the 1551 out - this is the same diagram (something I am aware of).  The alternative was waste a load of time hanging about Slough and REading stations (I HATE standing on stations - much rather spend longer on a train) or wait two hours for the next one.  As the taxi got to the station, and I went into the booking office, I could see the HST coming in on Platform 3 - so I used my season to get through the barrier and jumped on the train.  Was a 2+7 - I walked the length and breadth of the train to find the TM to buy a ticket (note - I knew it was the same train I would be leaving on so I could have just not bothered and loitered on the platform if fair evasion was my goal).  TM no where to be seen.  As we cam in on plat 10 (I knew that was where it was heading so there was no danger of me hoping it came in on 9 and had no barrier) I got off and went to find the TM on the platform - she was no where to be seen but when I explained my situation to the guy who was the TM on the 1551 he fired up his machine and sold me a return from slough to paddington - he tried to tell me not to worry about it but thats not me.  I didnt have to do this but I do not avoid fares (although I will admit I will pay a less amount if the TM sells it to me).  Ok, it aided me to get through the barriers, go to M&S and then get back on but I could have got a one way and then the cheapest of cheap fares to get me through the barrier again if I really wanted to do that.

In the rules are the rules scenario, I would either have:

1. Spent wasted time standing on platforms where there is no decent waiting room or lounge
2. Had to wait two hours for the next train to WOS
3. Been penalty fared

Some people would have had the ASSUMPTION I was trying to avoid paying a fare from Slough to London.  I know fare dodging is an issue but what gets up the backs of people like me and yes, contributes to me using whatever loopholes there are, is the ASSUMPTION I am going to avoid paying.

What's the issue here? And why do I not like the way this thread (and the other one) is going... ??? :-X

On subject, if an advantix machine issues a ticket, then surely it is valid.

The issue comes down to why I cant abide jobsworths who apply the letter of the law - something Ilovetrains seems to applaud. Yes Rules are rules but the application of them needs common sense.  if someone has paid ^900+ for a season, penalty fareing them not paying for a 7 quid return to pad when they are trying to pay it, seems ludicrous.  But we  both know at least one person who would support it - because  by the rules I should never have boarded the train without a ticket and it should be assumed im trying to dodge the fare. 

The advantix machines have bugs in them - they will issue a few fares that arent technically valid - YP discount on walk on first is one of them - I believe there are others.  They need to sort the software out. 

;D ;D ;D

Yes, I chuckled at that one, too, SDA/Guard!  ;) :D ;D

Have bought many a 1st class ticket from the Fast TIcket machine at Newton Abbot and Exeter with YP discount. When I asked at the ticket office in NA, she told me she couldn't issue one but if the machine was giving them out then to go for it!

An Avantix machine can issue a FOR Penzance - Wick  rte  Any Permitted  for ^0.00. Doesn't mean its correct.

Avantix machines can issue CDR's in the morning peak, doesn't make you a jobsworth for not issuing one just because it's in the machine, i'll bring up the points made and make sure that the Y-P discount is removed from First class fares in avantix, thanks for bringing it up!

YAWN!!!

Not that this is at all relevant to the quote above, but did we ever get an answer as to how someone well in excess of 26 and apparently in very lucrative employment can be entitled to a YP railcard? 

As an aside, the fact that ticket machines and ticket offices give out different discounts for railcards only serves to harm the rail industry. I travel by train a lot and I actually had no idea that there was no FC discount for YP railcard until I couldn't buy it from the ticket office and also this thread. Personally, I'm not bothered either way. The discount was nice but it's not so huge it will affect me drastically.

Nothing like consistency in an overcomplicated ticketing system to encourage more people onto the railway...

only way would be a student doing a course of I think its either 20 or 16 hours or more a week.

however....

maybe they met someone in a ticket office who thought 'ignore the rules, i'll show some discrection' LOL

indeed. when it suits bend the rules to make me happy, but when I'm not happy enforce the rules even though all of those people will then think "what a jobsworth" why arnt you showing any discrection........

Can I politely remind those if you posting here of my fellow moderator's request elsewhere that threads do not become personal, as this one may be in danger of doing? See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4600.msg40778#msg40778 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4600.msg40778#msg40778).

The following excerpt is lifted directly from the Y-P terms and conditions on the web:


I do not know the details of mookiemoo's personal circumstances - they're none of my business. However, is absolutely possible that mookiemoo is legitimately entitled to a 16-25 railcard. I would therefore suggest that it is inappropriate for me, or anyone else posting here, to cast doubt on the validity of her railcard. Please desist.

Thanks, inspector_blakey.

The National Rail website gives details of the eligibility criteria for the 16-25 Railcard (formerly Young Persons Railcard), at http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/what-is-a-16-25-railcard/eligibility .

the discussion isn't about her individual entitlement to a YP card.

the comments were about an expectation of showing 'discretion' in issuing 1st class tickets with a YP discount when that is not permissible. That isn't discretion, that is breaking rules to have an easy life.

it then moved on to how at times it seems like 'discretion' is expected by some people when it suits or benefits them personally but those same people often insist rules are followed to the letter (not letting STD class customers alight from the 1st class carriages, moving people out of the vestibules in 1st class etc etc) when it suits them also.

there has been no suggestion by anyone posting that mookimoo has no entitlement to a YP card or for that matter suggestion that she does. (I care not if she does or doesn't)

Open university student - gives me an ISIC card which gets me a 16-25 rail card

Being an OU student is not sufficient for the rail companies however having an ISIC card is.

You can get an ISIC card by producing a letter from the OU stating you are studying 60 credits or more (I normally carry 120-150 which is full time study load on top of my day jon - because I spend so long on ********** trains).

So - I get my letter, get an ISIC card for 15 quid, go to the ticket office, produce my isic and get my YP card - even though I think the isic card is a joke hoop I have to jump through it saves me money over the year.

Thank you, mookiemoo, for your very 'open' answer to that particular point. ;)

Have a feeling mookiemoo has explained herself before anyway?

Just to clarify my POV on this issue:

1. I have no time for people who assume the passenger is trying to dodge the fair (although note! - I have got on at WOS and been in the land of nod by pershore! - genuinely - but only when going to Pad and I have earplugs and no danger of sleeping through the destination!)

2. I have no time for people who will not PAY the fair or who try to avoid it

3. I have never, to my knowledge EVER not had a ticket if I could help it (I did once getting on at an unmanned, unable to find the TM and got off at an unmanned)

4. I do have an issue with the YP rules - if other cards give discounted travel on first then surely not allowing it on YP is age discrimination.  ESPECIALLY on a line that does not have the only FC fare that does not have an advance!  99% of the time it is moot as I travel on a first season so dont think I do this every day of the week (I did for the last few months as I had ad hoc travel to hemel)

5. I am the first to alert the TM to people I know are dodging or avoiding paying!  I nearly got into a bitch fight on friday because of it!  

If the advantix loop hole gets closed off or if TM's start obeying the law - fine - I'll pay, I can afford it - but dont hang me up to dry because I know the loophole is there and I dare to ask the Q!

I agree with Mookiemoo - if a loophole is there, you can't blame a passenger for using it.


Very noble! What response do you get from the guard - it must be a difficult situation?

Before, how did you ensure you woke up before Reading?

Knew my mind wasn't deceiving me :D

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2726.msg20939#msg20939

Varies - depending on the guard and the situation

On thurs and fri - FC on the cotwolds line is the first place the dodger head and hide in the toilets

Often its just a - you know you've got XYZ down there boasting about not having a ticket - and the TM normally goes down and evicts them (they usuallly dont have ANY ticket let alone a FC)

However on the train on fri - I liked the TM - he sorted my issue at Pad!  But at Evesham two chavs got on - one who made me look like kate moss (those of you who may have worked out who I am will know what I mean).  They sat behind me taking the piss out of first class passengers.  As I packed up at pershore I suggested they didnt sit there without tickets (which they'd admitted) taking the piss of people who paid 900 quid plus a month..   Slagging off and everything ensued - the one who could walk rather than waddle (I am not thin by any means! so I say this openly ) - pursuied me down the train because I offended her friend when I forced my way past as she blocked the carriage exit by standing there!  I reported to the TM that not only did they not have a ticket they didnt have an FC ticket - the best he could offer was opening the door andinviting me to run for it.

The ICIS card isnt in itself proof of entitlement to a YP card. The railcard holder HAS to be studying for 15 hours or more a week and for at least 20 weeks of the year.

If the regs state OU courses or distance learning are exempt then holding a NUS or ICIS card counts for nothing.

If someone using a YP card who isnt a student for 15 hours a week or more for 20 or more weeks of the year was taken to court, waving a ICIS or NUS card at a Magistrate will not get you far.

Whilst there are Many Conditions of use associated with Ticket validity such as,

Cheap day not valid before 09.00 monday to Friday.

AND all the other 100's of such conditions, this issue about Young Person Discounted First Class Fare is covered very simply in LAW.

A Ticket is a CONTRACT, the Fare Paid is agreeded at the point of Sale (the sealing of the contract).
If a First Class Ticket has been issued with a Young Person Discount then it is the Mistake of the Train Company not the traveller.

Vacman often points out that You don't shop at a Supermarket then leave without Paying on the Excuss I'll pay in the Car park if I'm asked!

Well in said Supermarket, if the Shelf price is ^2.25 but the Check-out comes up at ^3.25 then the Supermarket HAS to by LAW honour the Advertised Price because, at the shelf is the Point of Sale and the AGREEDED price!

The Answer is Simple: FGW need to get there act together!

BUT in the words of a Very Senior FGW Train Manager,
"There is a national shortage of trained circus personnel, so much so that Mr Billy Smart has been to Swindon to see First Great Western, to beg to have all his CLOWNS Back"

God's Honest that's what I heard a Senior Train Manager say, or words to that effect.

Wrong: an advertised price in a shop is merely an invitation to treat.

The display of goods is not an offer by the retailer; if a customer places goods into a shopping trolley it is the customer who makes the offer, which the retailer can accept or reject at the point of sale. No contract has been made until this offer is accepted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_Society_of_Great_Britain_v._Boots_Cash_Chemists_(Southern)_Ltd. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_Society_of_Great_Britain_v._Boots_Cash_Chemists_(Southern)_Ltd.)

---

Still, it's jolly decent of you to highlight your appalling spelling in bold so that nobody misses it...  (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/consoling2.gif) (http://www.millan.net)

it's in all avantix machines whether FGW, London midland.........
And what you say about the law is rubbish aswell mr smokey, if the customer is fully aware that the railcard is not valid but still asks for the discount then they are KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY trying to obtain a discount that they KNOW is not valid which could well constitute an offence under 5.3(a) regulation of railways act 1889, agreed it would be quite difficult to prove but still........

The following posts on this subject went beyond the bounds of the forum agreement that members sign up to when they join the forum, and one contained text which could have got me - as forum administraor - into legal hot water had I not deleted it from public view as soon at it was brought to my attention.   These following posts have not been restored, but I am restoring the rest of the thread in a locked condition as it contains a great deal os useful information and discussion.

A new thread (same subject) carries on some elements of this discussion:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4629.0