Great Western Coffee Shop

As part of my BEd course I have to make a teaching resource and have decided to design something on the Life of IK Brunel (and maybe his father too) as a subsequence I would like some video footage of his railways. 

Wanting to cover my backside who would be the best person to obtain permission to film on FGW (and Network Rail) property? 

I can obviously get some footage from "public" property eg the Dawlish sea wall but would like to also include BTM and PAD, it probably would be ok to do some filming and photography but don't want to come up against some pompous officialdom

http://nrekb.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html (http://nrekb.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html)

NR has guidelines for stills photography on its stations (it manages Paddington, most of the others will be managed by FGW but the basic procedure-essentially tell someone official what you are doing and don't get in the way or do anything dangerous- would be the same on any station).  At bigger stations where they have a reception you may be asked to sign in.  At smaller stations ask the platform staff.  At unstaff stations just be sensible.  

So long as you are not trespassing, causing an obstruction or doing anything dangerous the next concern of Rail staff and the British Transport Police will be terrorism, so don't do anything suspecious in that regard (photographing CCTV etc).  

Flash photography is a no-no, at least where there are trains about.
For video, I suspect that the rules are tighter, but I'll leave that to someone else to answer.  

Personally, I always try to assist genuine enthusiasts/photographers.  They are 'on your side' and another pair of eyes and ears.  It is a great shame that the general preoccupation with security restricts their activities.  As such, Tim's advice on notifying the relevant authority is bang on.


And---- :) BTM is not BTM but BRI

I've never understood the security arguements for restricting photographers.  Anywhere that is open to the public can easily be cased by terrorists.  If they need to know the layout of a station to plan their attack they can take photos serupticiously on a camera phone, or find them in a book or website or just memorise the layout and sketch a plan by hand.  Anything that a camera can record can also be recorded in the human memory. 

My impression is that it's not generally a problem, although to be on the safe side it's always worth asking the duty station manager nicely beforehand. I've never experienced one say no - the worst I got was at Swansea station a while back where I was told fine to take pictures but none of the staff (probably because there was a gaggle of uniformed FGW and ATW staff standing around smoking on the platform, in contravention of the smoking ban!).

I think as long as you have the DSM's permission you're covered should anyone challenge you. That said I don't think you're likely to encounter many problems from genuine railway staff, but agency security guards have been known to get overexcited about photography, threaten to confiscate cameras and fog film or delete pictures (none of which, incidentally, they have the authority to do: only a police officer can physically confiscate it and even then they need to have a very good reason).


You're definitely right in that the CRS code is BRI but I've heard lots of railway staff over the years refer to Temple Meads as BTM informally (I've even been given a piece of obsolete kit that had the owner's name and 'BTM' etched in it!)

The more obvious BTM isn't used to avoid confusion with Bournemouth IIRC.

Re reading my post, it does appear pedantic.  Sorry, no slavish insistence intended.

That might explain it - although another possibility could be to avoid confusion with Bedminster (which is BMT) just down the road; Bomo CRS code is BMH.

Customer Relations got themselves in a twist a few months ago when issuing me with a free travel pass - they issued it to Cheltenham Spa (CNM) instead of Carmarthen (CMN)! To their great credit though they corrected the mistake immediately I called them and sent me out the new ticket by special delivery. Still, not quite as drastic as the mistakes that travel agents have been known to make by using the three-letter IATA airport codes in error and booking people on flights to the wrong country!

Cheers guys

I wasn't attempting to use CRS codes but I'll remember it for next time.

Sorry if you knew this already, but the main station that's in use at Temple Meads today isn't a Brunel building. It was built in the 1870s (often attributed to Matthew Digby-Wyatt although apparently there is no documentary evidence of his input - the drawing were signed by Francis Fox, the engineer of the Bristol and Exeter railway).

The original Brunel station still stands next door and houses the Empire and Commonwealth museum (now closed) as well as part of the long-stay car park, but is no longer in use by trains (nor is it likely to return to use as Bristol panel was built right across the entrance to the Brunel trainshed!)

Brunel was a genius, but even he couldn't have designed a train shed 12 years after he left for that great terminus in the sky. ;D


BRI isn't just Brunel and Wyatt et al though.  In the 30s, five new platforms by PE Culverhouse were added to the east of the 1870s brick external wall at what is now Platform 5. The subway was constructed in the same era.

Have done a lot of photography over the years and the basic law is (was ?) that you can take photographs of whoever and what ever you want on public property. BUT there are several recent Laws that are being "bent" to make almost anything a criminal offence.
Anything that is deemed to be of possible use to a terrorist could be a criminal offence. Taking a photo of the Tamar Bridge ? The VSOE passing though Warminster ?

There are quite a few well publicised examples of this - the poor man ejected from the Labour Party conference for heckling - people photographing policemen doing things they shouldn't, have had their cameras confiscated.

You may find this useful:

http://www.urban75.org/photos/photographers-rights-and-the-law.html

I love that Urban 75 site, and have done for several years.

There's so much unexpected, random, and yet singularly great railway related stuff on there - it's like stumbling across nuggets of gold in a totally, completely unexpected place... I mean, drugs, fighting, football and... rural branch lines?!

http://www.urban75.org/railway/index.html

There is a massive amount of material on the net regarding closed railway lines. Most interesting it is too, as are some of the London Underground examples. Nick Catford's website is a good place to start. Will post a link when on a more suitable Internet device.

Just to let you know I did all my filming without any incident and no one even looked at me twice.
The power of a hi viz jacket!

Sorry, plymothian, but I don't think you should be doing that:


See http://nrekb.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.html

Chris is correct, only authorized rail staff should wear a hi viz!

Then how do builders, workmen, police officers cope then?

  A FGW employee taking photo's of rolling stock from the railway bridge at Newton Abbot, was apparently stopped by the local police.

 They took his name, address etc.  Apparently the case for his camera tripod could have been mistaken for a 'rocket launcher'

Think I know who that might be...

Not good!

I am virtually every day taking photos of very key and sensitive equipment on the network, but then that is need for the work I do.

On stations all visitors should sign in with the station supervisor (visitor being someone not waiting for a train taking a photo is not waiting for a train) if the station is unmanned the the Area manager should be informed.  There are many and varied reasons for signing in most of it has to do with the property owners / occupiers duty of care to the visitor, uses and staff etc. 

Railway high-vis for use on or about the line meets very specific requirements, the most obvious of which is that it is a defined shade of orange (rather than yellow which is much more commonly in general use). In the case of vests it also needs to have detachable fastenings at the shoulders and waist, since these garments can get caught on moving equipment and need to tear off easily (the same does not apply to garments with long sleeves). For anyone who really wants to research it the relevant group standard is GO/RT 3279.

It is definitely not advisable to wear any item conforming to GO/RT 3279 on railway premises if you are not a member of staff on duty (and I suspect this could potentially land you in serious trouble).

The waters are muddied a little bit because FGW issues station staff with high-vis vests as part of their uniform (orange for duty managers/supervisors, yellow/navy for despatch staff, yellow/orange for customer service and revenue staff). However, these are *not* approved high-vis garments for use on or about the line, they just serve to make staff more visible to customers. The fact that these garments are not approved for use trackside isn't much of an issue since the vast majority of station staff are not trained in personal track safety and so are not authorized to be on the line anyway.

As a general rule I would always err on the side of caution and remove *any* high-vis clothing I was wearing before entering railway premises. I've been mistaken for railway staff in the past just because I was wearing a shirt and tie and seemed to know where I was going.

Its not advisable, but I don't think you could get into serious trouble provided you were not doing anything illegal and keeping to public places.  AFAIK there is no offense of "impersonating railway staff" in the same way that there is with Police officers.

I'm not aware of a specific offence either, but I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that there was; there is some quite draconian legislation in railway law (particularly in the Regulation of Railways Act 1889). As an example, the offence of railway trespass is a criminal matter (rather than a civil matter as for other forms of trespass).

As a member of heritage railway staff in a safety critical capacity I have various GO/RT 3279 items but I'd never consider wearing them on railway premises other than my own both as a courtesy to staff and to avoid any potential confusion.

PTS holders have to have the name of their "Sentinel Sponsor" on the back of HiVis clothing (Sentinel is data base and is the name of the proff of track competencies). 

For staff platforms fall into the category of being "Lineside" and if you are with in 1.25 metre of the platform edge you are classed as "being on or about the line" where a whole lot of rules call RIMINI start to apply, however Station platform staff are classed as working in a "High Street Environment" ie where the public would normally be expected to go that is why they do not need HiVis to GO/RT 3279 same applies to staff in retail outlets.  If you were to wear HiVis clothing on platforms you are likely to be challenged for a Sentinel card and RIMINI, also you are likely to be pestered by joe public wanting to know what time the next train to Evercreach Junction departs.

If you want to take photos 1) request permission from the station supervisor 2) only go where a normal passenger would go.  Remember the railway is private land including stations it is not a public right of way.

Re-opening a really old thread here to add a link to a copy of the (now old) guidance letter from ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) to its members.  Suggestion made elsewhere to print and carry a copy around.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acpo.pdf

In reallity, don't go outside public areas, don't do anything dangerous or that would interfere with the operation of the railway (and that includes the use of flash, and the use of tripod in awkward places), don't come across as threatening.  It's a good idea to use your head / check in with station staff if you're going to be around for a while and / or could be seen as suspicious or loitering. This letter is posted because it came to my attention with morning, not because of any specific incident.

I don't think 'good idea' is strong enough - as others have stated, you *must* sign in after obtaining permission where facilities allow.

I dread to think how long the queue to sign in is on occasions like this:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/167B3/production/_88438029_hi031652745.jpg

Indeed, but is for station management to grant exemptions, not something to be decided by the photographer