Great Western Coffee Shop

Just received Roger Ford's e-preview of his 'Informed Sources' article for this Friday's Modern Railways, in which he confirms that the 202 new DMU vehicles does include 11 x 4 car units for Portsmouth Cardiff services.

Available on his website here:

http://home.ezezine.com/759/759-2009.02.23.00.01.archive.html (http://home.ezezine.com/759/759-2009.02.23.00.01.archive.html)

Paul

Excellent! I look forward to reading it when arrives through the letterbox.

As some posters may be aware there will be a substantial increase in the local population around Abbeywood in the next couple of years, and local management recently held a meeting with FGW to raise awareness and concerns regarding public transport.

FGW stated their intention to push for the stock and indicated that they were hoping for a firm decision before the end of the year with stock arriving by 2012, releasing the 158's for cross Bristol services.

Which will lead to very slack timetabling as these units are unsuited to high-density work.

Which in turn will lead to more trains missing out stations such as Parson St and Lawrence Hill so they can squeeze into the congested timetable.

67's + Mk 2's don't seem to have many problems with timings, so I'm pretty sure a 3 car 158 would cope with that diagram.

There is also a prospect of extending to Yate not too far off and it would be nice to get rid of all the 150 Weymouth's which  would be heartily welcomed.

Good point ref the Mk 2s. 158s are however, around 8 feet longer I think, although that shouldn't make that much difference.  I will ask around and see what the EXE crews have to say.

The "skips" are only timed at around 37mph average between Taunton and Newport, so shouldn't have any problems with the schedules!

Just as an aside, which I found amusing, anyway: the 67's and Mk2's on the 0828 from Nailsea this morning stopped at Bedminster ... then, in response to some whistling and gesturing from the guard, moved forward some 20 feet and stopped again, before the doors were released.

Well, as I said, I found it rather amusing ...  ::)

We have a signal on the Up Main at Bridgwater Station. When A HST arrives it stops across the signal, which is normally showing a proceed aspect. Well... Once it showed a Danger aspect. Hence the train stopped with most  of the carriages (including the TGS) off the platform, we had to wait for the signal to change before we could move and doors be released ::)

Of course it is the configuration of the 158s with the long body and end doors which contributes to a longer station dwell time.  I would imagine that similar problems exist with the later edition Mark 2s.  I guess the very generous timetabling, (referred to above), of the Skips +4 is designed to alleviate this problem.

So what was running the diagram before the 67's. I'm assuming the timetable wasn't altered that much to accomodate them, therefore if it was regularly a 150 then the timings would be very similar.

IIRC the Wessex 31's were tested to ensure that they ran to Brighton in similar times to a 158 they replaced. But they only did that if they were fuelled for the trip of course.

Which, if FGW is to get the 52 vehicles indicated in DafT's rolling stock plan, would mean grand total of eight extra coaches for the Thames Valley - making no sense whatever operationally or maintenance-wise, especially if they were to be built by the Chinese or CAF - at least 172s are cousins of Turbos, so Reading depot would be able to handle them without too much trouble. But even so, what would be the point?

If this is the case - or has FGW just lost eight extra coaches? - surely it would make much more sense to keep all the new sets together and, failing any better ideas, send a small batch of three-car 158s over to Reading for the North Downs/Gatwick service? This route doesn't need pure commuter-style stock and this would allow its Turbos to go back into the main line fleet to help ease the strains there - and there would be enough of a different type of stock on the depot to make staff training worthwhile.

Hopefully Roger Ford has the answer to that when the mag comes out. The numbers and batches of units ordered, (discussed a few weeks ago) didn't match the rolling stock plan then, and apparently he now has the actual details, so FGW may get more or less than 52. But as you rightly say, all the stock displaced from Portsmouth - Cardiff shouldn't necessarily stay on Bristol locals...

Paul

You then have to consider the 150's given back to ATW.
The 142's which will probably go as well
the cascaded 150's from LM
and the retirement of 143's

anyone like to make a table up to show how that fits in with the 'plan'?

The rolling stock plan?  That doesn't currently include any 142 or 143 retirements. That is the aim of 'New Generation DMU', which is planned for after CP4, the 2009-14 period:

"A feature of CP5 is that there are fleets of EMUs and DMUs that will be approaching the end of their planned lives. This will provide a further opportunity for the introduction of the next generation multiple units."

However I don't disagree that FGW's loaned 150s and 142s will probably go back where ever they came. What has never really been 'put to bed' is whether or not they are included in FGW's current fleet numbers, but I suspect not.

Paul

Why do FGW run the North Downs line? It should be SWT, and it should be electrified.

Why SWT?  I would have thought that Southern would be a more appropriate owner, especially as historically, this was the old SER line from London Bridge to Reading, with no LSWR involvement, apart from running powers between Wokingham and Reading for the latter's Waterloo service, pre 1923. 


Geographically,  SWT appears in its own right at Guildford and Dorking, but both stations are on the easternmost fringe of the franchise  Additionally, before the Gatwick connection was 'discovered', the route was operated as a link between Reading and Tonbridge in Kent by the old hybrid 206 'Tadpole' units, themselves comprising stock from the east of the Southern Region.

It is probably in the FGW fold because of the proximity of maintenance facilities and route familiar crews at Reading.  (Post Tadpole but before Turbos, the service was run with Reading based 1st generation DMUs).

But... certainly, it needs electrification, particularly as its generous loading gauge would make a useful alternative route to the Channel Tunnel portal.

Yes, I suppose Southern would be better. (I was basing SWT on geography as you say)

We could then have Reading to Ashford and Reading to Tunbridge Wells services.

And please - let's speed up the Gatwick trains!

Surprisingly then, getting back to the numbers, Roger Ford's latest article has the following:

8 x 4 car FGW Thames Valley
7 x 3 car FGW Thames Valley
11 x 4 car Cardiff - Portsmouth
and then
12 x 3 car TPEx
23 x 3 car Northern

The text explains that FGW will probably now use the displaced 158s in the Bristol area, and the former LM 150s will all go to Northern instead, and also suggests that FGW appears to have become the lead TOC for introduction of new DMUs, again rather than Northern.

Sounds good to me, his articles have a fairly accurate track record over the last few years...

Paul

Fantastic, its grim up North and should stay that way  :D

All seems to make sense - just so long as all FGW's sets are fitted out in 2+2 style, with adequate luggage space, to provide something slotting in quality-wise between Turbos/158s and an HST, making them suitable for Portsmouth-Cardiff and off-peak work on the Oxford fasts and Cotswold Line. Just a pity there's a couple of years to wait for them - and no tombstone seats, thanks.

And overcrowding on trains around Leeds and Manchester is grim too - it doesn't really matter who gets the new trains first, just that they are delivered as quickly as possible and work out of the box.

AFAICT, Northern should get additional trains first, if RF/MR is right about the ex-LM 150s, because their replacement 172s are already in build. Unless they are shared out north and south temporarily, which is always there as another possibility...

Paul

You're just testing me, now!  I've added it to our acronyms list (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html), anyway.  ;D

YMTT,ICPC  ;D

pAUL

NYJBS

 ??? :'(

NYJBS = Now you're just being silly.   ;D

Announcement from DafT about how the trains will be bought and leased to the operators - effectively they are setting up their own leasing company for the short-term, which they will then try to sell on.

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=394539&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False (http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=394539&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False)

And just to keep the pot boiling, the latest Network Rail route plans still include the possibility of gauge clearance work to allow 165/166 use on Cardiff - Portsmouth services...

Paul

Hmmmm interesting...though I still think the new units will be deployed on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line but you never know with the Dft!

So when are we likely to see new units on this service?

Let's say don't hold your breath. If they are 172s Bombardier has quite a lot of electrics to complete before doing 172s so 2013 to 15?

Another sweep?

And the contract winner is...

...supposed to have been announced in March 2009 - so a week late already...   ;D


and half of the DMU order have to be in service by Dec 2011, and all by May 2012, for the optimists amongst us all!

Paul

The process is still grinding on slowly. FGW has recently supplied DafT with details of how it proposes deploying its share of the order - purely for information purposes I'm sure, since, as we all know, DafT doesn't tell franchises which trains to use and where...

But it's a fair bet Portsmouth-Cardiff and the more lightly-used Cotswold Line off-peak services are top of the list of suggestions.

Those who get Roger Ford's monthly preview email will have seen it this morning, but he will update the 'new DMU' forecasts this month and regarding the Portsmouth - Cardiff 44 vehicles:


which doesn't seem too good...

Paul

the lack of news from dft on this new DMU fleet has concerned me for a while now  :(

This suggests that the new build stock for Cardiff-Pompey will never happen. Expect to see cascaded Class 165/166 some time around 2016. Or maybe 5 car HSTs when they start to be offloaded from London-Cardiff.

When are HST's being offloaded from the Cardiff-London route?

2017, so only 8 years to go.

Probably when the line is electrified