Great Western Coffee Shop

Guys,

I am not an industry insider, so I am putting myself up for being shot down with this one, but I was reading in RAIL magazine at lunch time about the huge number of locos that DB Schenker have put out to graze during the downturn, from class 37 to 92 if I recall.

Are there a similar number of old coaches not being used, and if so, is it not possible to put some top and tail units together to ease some of the motive power issues that we hear about all the time?

I keep on thinking that there is a gap in the market for another type of open access TOC, one that offers a slightly slower service, with older stock, but was really designed to be customer friendly.

Not really turn up traffic oriented but forward booking (lower ticket prices), guaranteed seats, perhaps secondary termini (in my area I think Stratford could be used instead of Liverpool Street and then up the West Anglia route - and beyond to Norwich, ECML, Kings Lynn etc etc). But an on board experience that really enjoys having you on board - regular - personal - PA use, mobile snacks, perhaps wireless internet.

And clean coaches - not new, but clean.

Two Class 37s on a (say) 5/6 coach train would offer startling performance, and very capable of operating if one fails. I am sure they'd be expensive to operate, but surely very cheap to lease?

I keep on thinking about the Tornado run this weekend. 500 pax, 13 coaches and literally thousands of onlookers. I just think someone is missing a trick here.....

Mark

Hi MarkRanger, welcome!

I don't think you will be 'shot down' for posting a considered opinion.  Several other members are keen proponents of loco haulage and your idea certainly seems to make sense.  After all, both ATW and FGW are currently running loco hauled sets and the feedback has been very positive.

With regard to a slower service with older stock, FGW West could easily be an offshoot of the NRM.  Most of our stock is 'mature' to put it kindly.  :)

ScotRail are using old stock to run more frequent commuter trains in Edinburgh.

The decision was praised.

Until not so long ATW used to run evening rush hour trains from Cardiff up the Rhymney Valley using a 37 and 4 coaches instead of a two/four car 142/143/150.  They junked that when they got some more 150s from First ScotRail. 

A pity really.  A 37 gets 4 coaches off the line a bit more smartly than a Pacer.

Does anyone know what the relative economics of loco haul v DMU are?  Presumably 1,750 bhp of 37 uses a bit more fuel than 850 bhp of 4 car Pacer.

ALso the Track Access charges will be a lot higher, and leasing costs probably higher for a train that only got used for one return trip a day. And the getaways are only sharper if the pax close the doors.

But it was a shame. I went on the last weekend of services, when they had 3 separate loco hauled trains running up and down the Rhymney Valley. 

Good question well asked regarding leasing costs of LHCS, and this has been raised on a number of occasions, although there is nothing specific as I^m sure there is commercial confidentiality regarding any particular lease.

I certain there was a very good response to this question a while ago although I am unable to track down the particular thread, but this link and comments by Graham regarding investigations into the Transwilts route have a bit of detail.

I would be grateful if the particular thread I was thinking of could be found as it was quite detailed in a cost/coach comparison.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2865.0

As well as the initial cost of the stock lease there are also factors such as the safety case and track access costs which are an additional considerable burden to be considered for LHCS as against DMU^s.

In the Cl31^s scenario Wessex were able to use in house resources, whereas FGW are contracting the whole package from Db Schenker (ex EWS) and there was probably considerable pressure on DfT from FGW to allow them to do this in the absence of anything else they could reasonably do not to default on their franchise commitments, and their promises to Government to tidy up their act following the dark days of 2006/07, AND the ATW 150^s are still here.

Is this possibly what you are referring to, tramway?

See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1277.msg8658#msg8658

Hi Chris

Thanks for the link although I did unearth that one while I was searching but it wasn't the one I had in mind, possibly memory playing tricks.

It was some time ago and IIRC also dealt with comparative fuel costs as well, as I say I thought it was quite comprehensive so thought it worthwhile having a look, although I didn't have a great deal of time to use the search facility, and threads do tend to meander a bit so it could be anywhere.  ::)

Hmmm.  ::)

Other possibilities, then:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=924

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2916.msg28838#msg28838

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=790

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1090.msg5742#msg5742

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=937.msg4342#msg4342

If it's not among any of those - sorry, but I'm inclined to give up searching!  :P :-[ ::)

I think personally any form of Open Access Train Operator is always a good thing, I recently travelled with Wrexham & Shropshire and that was a major eye opener into what rail travel could be.

Now before anyone says i'm slating the existing providers, i'm not :) I just think that things could be done differently :)

I had the following route as an Idea:

Taunton - Castle Cary - Bruton - Frome - Westbury - Trowbridge - Melksham - Chippenham - Swindon - London

Using MKII stock and maybe a Class 47 top and tail. With the following route there is potential for a large amount of money to be made, considering for example the demand of Melksham as i'm sure grahame will happily tell you ;D Also the demand of Castle Cary - Chippenham of Wiltshire College students and the Private schools in Bruton.

The only problem is that you need a large some of cash to setup an Open Access Operation. There are documents on the ORR and NR websites about starting OA Operations.

There are plenty of routes in the South West as i'm sure other users will tell you that could be well served with an OA company.

As you pointed out the route need to be fast, aminly about customer service so that people will want to travel with you. Maybe offer complimentary tea & coffee to passengers of both classes like Midland Mainline used to offer. Also offer a complimentary meal to First Class Passengers but still offer a dining service to Standard Class.

In all honesty I would love to start a train company but simply put, don't have the finances, so unless someone wants to invest *laughs* it isn't going to happen >:(

Aaaah, a good old class 47 and some lovely mark 2s with tables and a good view out of the window. Sheer luxury.

I think the Reading to Paddington line is full. It would have to go to Waterloo.

Yes I knew there was severe oversubscribed and bottlenecks in Reading. I was thinking (as grahame suggested) via Oxford and Bicester Chord into Marlybone :)

But I see no reason why you could not go into Waterloo or Victoria via but not calling at Clapham Junction. Maybe use one of the old Eurostar platforms at Waterloo?

It is the infrastructure outside Waterloo, not the number of platforms, which is limiting service growth.

Avoiding Clapham Junction would help, but how long would it take to get there? ???

I'm struggling to find a route into Waterloo that avoids Clapham Junction without using the LU Network, which I think would be frowned heavily upon ;)

I think there is some capacity via Olympia (but how to get there avoiding Reading?) and via Brixton ... but Bicester and chord, or even Bicester and Aylesbury ... (Shameless self interest declaration ... I seem to spend a stupid amount of time travelling to Oxford, Bicester, Milton Keynes and Cambridge from Melksham)

Thanks to everyone who has joined in this debate - I had also seen the Trout's post about Wrexham and Shropshire, which seemed to vindicate my thoughts on how to operate TOC's with more than a passing thought to customers.

So, why are access charges much higher for loco hauled stock than DMU's? Is it down to wear and tear?

Having been so involved in the Cambridgeshire guided bus debacle, I wondered about a Cambridge-Oxford service after our efforts to stop the council wasting ^100m of taxpayer's money came to nowt, but was told that there was no chance whatsoever of paths on the North London line....

But I bet there are ways of utilising some of the 'alternative' stopping points, instead of flocking into the main terminii. For example, how far into Paddington is the line 'full'? Might there be a station a few miles out that hooks up with TFL in some way? Acton, Ealing come to mind? What happened with the old Eurostar depot (is it called North Pole?) Does that connect to Waterloo in some way? Or nearby???

There is a precedent here - it is called Ryanair, and they've done a half decent job of it  :) They started with manky old 737s and now have just about the newest fleet flying.

Apart from customer service though, which they excel at being absolute rubbish at.

Acton Bridge > Willesden Jn Reverse > Mitre Bridge > Kensignton Olympia > Latchmere Jn > West London Jn > Waterloo

Avoids Clapham ;)

Thats one way of solving the problem, I like that route. The next problem (not meaning to sound critical or ungrateful) would be the bottleneck at reading...

Also if you were to reverse at Willesden Junction, would that not mean you would have to make the train call there? which in turn would affect LO services...?

Maybe we need to think of a new route...?

how about this one:

Swindon - Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge - Westbury - Warminster - Salisbury - Andover - Basingstoke - Woking - London Bridge (Avoiding Clapham Junction)

I will admit that I don't know the names of the junctions but the best route I found for the above from the South West Main Line was:

Haydons Road - Streatham - Peckham Rye - Queens Road Peckham - London Bridge

I Suppose the route doesn't have to run to London, Maybe run from Taunton or Exeter to Oxford and encourage passengers to use WSMR or Chiltern Services??

Indeed, it is due to the significantly higher track forces.

The thing is, you can cast any number of weird and wonderful routes through London, but journey times will be poor. Commuters won't be tempted if they have to get up in the early hours to arrive in London by 9 am! ;)

And I think most routes into London are full (esp at peak times), and Southern/LO won't appreciate you eating into their few spare "recovery/reliability" paths, and taking up valuable platform space with your old and unreliable diesel rolling stock.

I don't want to be nasty about any suggestions, but I think that in this case, where there is no space, just provide a well timed connecting service (i.e. at Swindon for TransWilts; Taunton for Mindhead). No need for Open Access; I don't think this should be beyond any competent TOC...

No you didn't sound nasty at all Btline. Infact you have made a rather sensible and valid point.

There should be a reasonable service for the TransWilts, Taunton - Minehead.

Also the reopening of the Radstock & Shepton Mallet Branches for mainline traffic. (But thats a different kettle of fish all together)

I think a service from say Minehead - Swindon via Frome & Melksham would do rather well.

I personally think that if the railways provided a service that the passengers actually want (TransWilts speaks to mind), there would be no need for open access operators. Look at what Wrexham & Shropshire and Grand Central have achieved in the past year. Passenger numbers have soared as a result of somebody taking a gamble and attempting to provide a service for passengers. Personally I think (despite their initial problems) they have done a b***dy good job ;D

Yes your right about other operators frowning at the thought of somebody nicking their routes. But If a path and suitable route could be found. Then IMO a Cross West Train service would do rather well.

I am not really thinking that a lot of business might be derived from this traffic, my own thoughts about this concept of another way of doing TOCs, is perhaps looking at less time sensitive traffic - although equally, I do believe that if you get them the right service, then people may buy into a longer journey time. It's all about engaging your customer base, rather than seeing them almost as a necessary evil


It may be old, but my point is that, if you operate units that have enough firepower - i.e. top and tail, then reliability is not an issue


I think you are absolutely right here, but given the financial pressure on TOCs, are they mindful of thinking of more peripheral ways to enhance revenue? I read recently news of a report done by one of the heritage railways that showed the value of their business to the local economy and think this is one of the most powerful, but unused arguments for more rail travel. It is not just about A to B, but the much wider benefits it brings to businesses both in those two locations, but also en route.

And say a local/specialised TOC fed to the one of the 'main' TOC routes. Isn't that a win-win for all? Minehead is a good example, as is Swanage. Yet, it strikes me that the powers that be - Network Rail, really arent desperately interested in these kind of fringe benefits