Great Western Coffee Shop

Scenario.

Me, and three of my friends (shall we call them Tom, Dick and Harry) are going to London for the day on Saturday, catching the 09:15 up from Melksham and getting back at 21:47.   We'll sit together on the way up, catch up on the weeks news,, but when we get to London, we'll be splitting into two groups. Tom and I are going book shopping in Foyles, whereas Dick and Harry are going to Whitechapel to meet up with a young lady that Dick knew at Uni.

We'll all meet up at Paddington about 7:30 to get a quick burger before catching the train home as a group.

Question. Do the rules let us get and use a GroupSave 4 Melksham -> London and Travelcard for our journeys?

I think the Goupsave Melksham to Padd only  is OK as you are travelling both ways as a group.

But I think on the groupsave travel card you must still travel as as group. However, I'm not sure how the LT barriers operate with Groupsave. Does it say "Seek Assistance" and make you go via the manned barrier. If it does allow you through the barriers then you could split up but you might get caught by the plain clothes revenue protection squad.

It is something we seem to get terribly upset about in this country, transferrability of train tickets.

I remember travelling on my own from Quedlinburg to Gernode on a Schones Wockenende (5 person group day rover) Magdeburg issue the ticket as it was cheaper than two singles as I was going out to the HSB via Gernrode and back from Wernigerode. The cripper checked my ticket and then the girl next door who asked for a single to an intermediate station. He then asked me if she was on my ticket so I said yes so she got a free ride on my ticket.

Don't forget Groupsave is only available from manned ticket offices. I think FGW are bending the rules by not issuing them from machines particularly in the Thames Valley where 4 people may want to do an evening trip to London on a Travelcard, they get charged for 4 tickets. More money for FGW from the suckers who don't know how to get the best deal!



 

Groupsave tickets are issued all the time in the west here as we have so many unmanned stations, avantix machines can do them and I dont think its a stipulation of the ticket.

I agree that this is a rather "sharp" practice. SWT also do it (or were until recently). I have read of promises from both that the Scheidt and Bachmann Ticket Xpress machines will have software upgraded to enable GroupSave but no progress yet.

However, as I understand it if you want to travel on a GroupSave ticket, the ticket office is closed and self-service machines will not sell GroupSave tickets then Condition 2 applies as follows: there is no machine that will sell the ticket you require and therefore you should buy a ticket to cover at least part of your journey (thus providing evidence of where you boarded) and at the first reasonable opportunity (most likely when you either encounter a conductor/ticket examiner, change trains at a staffed station or reach a station exit barrier) you can "cash in" the original ticket when you buy the ticket you actually want. Because this is in the NRCoC it is written in stone and no train company nor its staff can legitimately penalize you by charging a penalty fare or full anytime single.

Interestingly although the FGW website has the NRCoC on it condition 2 is not reproduced properly: it's missing the vital section that applies here!

Incidentally, rail staff feel free to correct me if what I have said above is not correct and you know the correct version.

Thanks ... so to summarise:

a) The Group stipulation DOES apply to the TravelCard section too (but still cost effective to use a group save to London)

b) Careful how / where you turn up to buy them (but not a problem at Melksham as they sel lthem on  the train)

I share your concerns at the ticket machine issue (and of course there are other limits as to what a ticket machine can sell too) but commend the web site which does automatically select "groupsave" under the "railcard" box if you ask for four adults.

I doubt the barriers will have a problem with your ticket.

Or the barrier staff!

(interestingly, I went to London with 3 friends on Groupsave, but Chiltern -we used them because of no evening peak restrictions- did not sell the Groupsave travel cards, so they had to be bought separately)

Is Group Save valid on any Off-Peak Return?

e.g. From Kidderminster to London on the 0730 departure (arrives at London at 1025)

e.g.2 Worcester to London on the 9.15ish departure (arrives 11.30ish)

It seems that avantix says yes (if I have understood the reams of jargon) but FGW.com and Chiltern.com say no, and don't sell groupsaves until afternoon! The LM website doesn't even let you select Group Save!

I would be very grateful if someone could check this. Thanks in advance. :)

When are you planning on doing at as some dates/times may be barred.

Group save tickets have the same restriction as the non discounted ticket.

So yes group save valid from Worcester to London

However if there is no time restriction on the non discounted ticket then it is valid after 0930.

Valid anytime weekends.  There are some barred dates during high demand. 

I've checked the "banned" dates, and Chiltern don't have them, and the FGW ones are clear.

So if both the tickets are valid, why don't the websites let you buy them?

Thanks both for your help in this query. :)

Although does anyone know why you can't seem to get Groupsaves for AM travel online?

Something that has annoyed me for a long time now, just wondering if there is any logical explanation.

I bought an Off Peak Day Return on Groupsave 4 with seat reservations.  I was handed 16 tickets plus my receipt: a ticket each for the outbound, a ticket each for the return and a reservation coupon for each person in each direction.

The ticket office was using Fujitsu Star.

Why can't they put all the passengers on one ticket?  Surely that would be easier as you all have to travel together to get the Groupsave discount anyway?

I know that the NXEC online booking system (which I think uses Tribute to issue the tickets) can combine the seat reservations onto one coupon but still issues a ticket for each person.

Is there any reason why you would need a ticket each?  I was under the impression that status code GPS-4 wouldn't open the ticket barrier anyway?  Do other train companies issue tickets like this or is it just the craziness of FGW?

So you have one each for the barrier.  Tickets will normally work the barrier unless they have been set to reject them.

That may be the case with some barriers but not all at all times.  Revenue staff can reprogram the barriers to reject certain tickets if they are targetting fraud on those tickets but at other times they may want the tickets accepted.  One ticket each gives this flexibility.

Isn't that the reason that they have a human being on the barriers as well - to allow for all the various stupidities in the "system" ?

Last week at Exeter St Davids (waiting for a connection) I followed the "Cash machine" signs and ended up outside the station - then my ticket from Westbury to Paignton wouldn't let me back in again ! I then walked through the "manned" gate unhindered !

If the ticket office was using Star as you say... Ask for a business receipt.

Daft as it sounds if it's a friends outing etc. But it will print the seat reservations on the receipt, which means you don't need to take the reservation tickets with you ;)

Ok, so I've got to get my football team from Exeter to London. The cheapest way I have found is groupsave on super-off peaks which is fine and actually works out at a great price!

However, obviously we need to travel in groups of 4. However, I have doubts about the organisation of some of our members and was wondering what happens if 3 travel on Groupsave4? I'm not bothered about what happens to the one that missed the train - that's their problem but it is the knock-on effect that concerns me. Will the grpsave4 be invalid for the other 3 travelling?

I suppose the safest option is to buy on the day when I know how many people are there but I like to be organised so if I can safely buy in advance, I will.

Say they are in the toilet!!!

My understanding is that a Groupsave4 ticket covers up to four individuals travelling together: if one of them doesn't actually turn up, the other three are still covered by that ticket.

What would be a problem is if a Groupsave ticket is purchased for three people, but then four try to travel on it!  ::) :o ;D

If you are going to a football match, take a big teddy as a mascot. He'll need a seat of course and if the Conductor has any sense of humour he'll laugh it off.

GroupSave 3 and 4 tickets are issued differently: they have status GPS-3 or GPS-4 printed on them as appropriate. The strict interpretation of the rules therefore is that if you have a GroupSave 4 ticket but only 3 people travelling then it's invalid. How rigorously conductors are likely to enforce that though I'm not sure.

Thanks for that, inspector_blakey!

However, I'm rather surprised at that interpretation of the rules.  For example, I bought a GroupSave 3 ticket, a while ago:

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4453/picture153i.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/picture153i.jpg/)

Now, if only two of the people for whom that ticket had been bought were actually travelling, and a Guard turned up to do a ticket check - surely all I would have to do would be to invite 'anyone else travelling to the same station as us?' to play the role of our missing third party?

It all seems rather bizarre to me, if that's really how the rules apply.  ::)

you would be suprised just how strict most staff are with groupsave, as when bought from a ticket office they are issued on seperate tickets, therefore it is abused quite a lot!

Thanks for your comments, vacman!  :)

That particular ticket was bought on board the train - and the guard did ask whether we would all be travelling together, both ways, before printing one ticket for the out, and one ticket for the return, journey.

By the way: in our case, we were two adults and one child travelling - but the guard explained, and sold us, that cheaper GroupSave3 ticket.

On that basis, I'm rather impressed with FGW staff and their pragmatic approach to GroupSave tickets ...  ;)

Thanks everyone. I like the teddy idea! Better get shopping...

Vacman. I understand about the probable abuse of separate tickets and agree.

What about if the "spare' ticket was still in the possesion of the remaining group? That would mean that if there was another person they would have to buy another ticket.

a) If I have a GroupSave four but one of my party fails to turn up, and we travel as a three-some or do I need to get my ticket changed?

b) If I'm travelling on a GroupSave 4 from Westbury to Swindon, but one of the party now wants to join at Trowbridge, is this allowed? If the three of us get off the train at Trowbridge and straight back on with her, she'll be part of the group all the time.

In a sensible world yes, but where the TOC wants to squeeze every last penny out of its passengers then probably not.

i suppose you could buy a group save 3 from Westbury to Trowbridge and Groupsave 4 from Trowbridge to Swindon. But you shouldn't really have to.

It's like all the problems with joining short at B or leaving early at C on a ticket from A to D it's really no skin off the TOCs nose  It will cost them marginally less in fuel and it will free up a seat for part of the journey. It's just the fare structure is so stupid that the shorter journey is more expensive than the longer.

With GroupSave your party must travel together at all times from/to the stations on your tickets. The whole party can of course travel short or break their journey unless BoJ is not permitted by the tickets' restrictions. Your party must also be composed of the number of people for which the discounted tickets were purchased. Failure to comply with these GroupSave terms and conditions leaves you liable to having to pay the full Anytime fares for the journey being made, or even a Penalty Fare should you be in a PF area.

That would be the official line and this is what I was told in correspondence with FGW a while back. However in regard to 3 people travelling instead of 4 when a GroupSave 4 has been purchased I can tell of my own experience of this.

I was unable to get the tickets changed or zero excessed without incurring a ^10 admin fee (a journey with two split points so would've had to pay ^30) but I took a chance and approached the Conductor/TM prior to boarding each train to explain one of our party had dropped out at the last minute. All staff were happy to let us travel, with just one TM saying that if I hadn't approached him first he may've charged us for new tickets.

YMMV.

See also a previous topic, where this was discussed: (topics now merged)  ;)

Thanks, Chris ... and Devonian's issue with a member of the party not turning up is exactly what I'm wondering about.  BUT it's a big group with a number of 1 pound children, so I guess what we do is simply promote a child into an adult if an adult fails to turn up, and not use the child's ticket, if it happens.

That's 'just the ticket', grahame!  ;D

The guard on our train explained that treating a child (12 years old, in our case) as an adult on a GroupSave is actually cheaper!  ::) :o

And, as those topics covered much the same discussion points, I've now merged them here - as ever, in the interests of continuity and clarity.  ;)

A group of us are travelling to Reading during the Olympic periods and whilst our journey up is clear of restrictions, we want to travel back on a Sunday evening. Groupsave is banned on all services leaving Paddington between 1600 and 2000. Ash the last train I can catch would be the ex-Pad 1957, is groupsave also banned from Reading? I.e. is it. the entire service that is restricted or just travel from London?

What are your specific dates of travel devonian?

Looking at the barred times/dates at National Rail Enquiries (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/groupsave_calendar.html) it does show there are restrictions on, for example Sunday 5th August.

I can't get FGW's booking engine to offer GroupSave to Reading on any service from Devon/Cornwall on that day, or for this coming Sunday. However, the following Sunday, August 12th (last day of Games) their are no restrictions on GroupSave on FGW's booking engine.

FGW's Customer Services tell me there are also restrictions on 5th August until 1400 due to racing at Newbury and those restrictions apply regardless of whether the services actually call at Newbury!

I've asked FGW via Facebook for some clarification as the info online and by phone is as clear as mud.

There does seem to a problem with Groupsave on the FGW booking engine. I've found several occasions where it won't give me a Groupsave on West Country branch lines when it should. Have raised this with FGW via Twitter.

The FGW website often denies you GroupSaves when it shouldn't. Either buy at the ticket office or use a different booking website.

I gave up using FGW's site several years ago when it refused to let me buy GroupSaves on the Cotswold line into Paddington before midday. Instead we went to the ticket office, and didn't have to ask for the discount.

Unfortunately, one can't use a different booking engine to try and get GroupSave online when it should be eligible. Only thetrainline.com powered websites offer GroupSave as a discount option and they all apply the same restrictions as FGW's booking engine, regardless of whether those restrictions are correct.

It's perverse that one can't buy GroupSave online for a journey from say, Liskeard to Truro on Sunday 5th August because of racing at Newbury!

I concur with Btline, buy your GroupSave tickets from a station or onboard if no facilities exist at your start station.

The only clear bit of information I got from FGW Customer Services was that the time restrictions during the Olympics^ period only apply to journeys to/from London Paddington and not for the whole journey of a particular service. Unfortunately website ticket retailing doesn't reflect this. So it should be okay to travel on a service from Reading to Devon/Cornwall even if the train started at Paddington during the restricted period.

I say 'should be okay', please don't take that as gospel as FGW Customer Services may be wrong. There is however enough ambiguity in the published information and that ambiguity, contractually, should favour the passenger if any dispute over validity arose.

Incorrect. GroupSaves are available using London Midland, who use WebITS (not sure about the others)
Of course, WebITS is a superior booking platform anyway, so I'd avoid all trainline style ones unless there is a TOC specific deal. Why FGW still uses trainline system I don't know!

Well, I'm suitably embarrassed.   :-[ :-[ :-[

You are right Btline. WebTIS booking engines do indeed now offer GroupSave. A fairly recent change I wasn't aware of. Thanks for the clarification.

Just checked a specimen journey on redspottedhanky.com between Bristol TM and Bath Spa for 4 adults and it offered GroupSave with a small 'G' in the relevant fare box:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/rshgs.jpg)

Good news for Devonian's earlier query. I can now get redspottedhanky to sell GroupSave tickets to Reading form Devon/Cornwall destinations across a range of journeys on the Sundays during the Olympics period, with no apparent 'barred trains' issues. If he comes back with specifics about his journey then it may just be possible to advise booking GroupSave tickets online through a WebTIS based booking engine. If they can be purchased then they are valid, regardless of what the restrictions may say.

Bit of a result. Thanks again Btline.

Try and keep up BNM! ;D :P

You were right that for a long while WebITS didn't permit it. This led to complaints so some booking engines put Groupsave as a railcard option. Now it's fully integrated. :(

Why do WebIts have fewer restrictions on tickets than Trainline?

I'd guess it's all down to interpretation of restrictions, old boy.  :P :D

These booking engines are only as intelligent as the person programming them and uploading the fares inmformation. There are many 'anomalies' between thetrainline and WebTIS, most usually when it comes to routeing permissions. Looks like now, another 'anomaly' is the interpretation of GroupSave restrictions.

Ho hum. If everything was precise, correct and unambiguously clear there'd be no need for this forum's 'Fare's Fair' board.  ;)


bignosemac is still learning. I don't think I'll ever be fully versed in the ways and means of interpreting UK rail ticket validities. I do try though.  ::)

I can't check if redspottedhanky gives the Groupsave discount where FGW doesn't. The redspottedhanky app doesn't allow multiple passengers and the website when displayed on an iPhone tells you to use the app.

Was looking at a Groupsave 3 for 22nd August from Teignmouth to Paignton. FGW won't give me it!

Can't comment on the apps as I don't do that smartphone/iPhone malarky, but redspottedhanky.com will certainly allow a booking of GroupSave 3 between Teignmouth and Paignton on Aug 22nd:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/rshgstp.jpg)

In this particular case FGW will also sell GroupSave 3 online:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/gs3pt.jpg)

That's good news. Wonder if it was fixed after I mentioned it. Had problems with both the lines to PGN and BNP in recent weeks.  ;D

There is also another anomaly that I've found.

The Train Line will permit a GroupSave discount on Super Off Peak Day Travelcards, whereas WebTIS does not.

I believe WebTIS is interpreting this correctly, as the only GroupSave eligible Travelcard is ODT.

A note at Taplow this am Group Save suspended from Padd I think between 09:00 11:00.

Guess what it conicides with passengers going to Dorney.