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Does anyone else think this is a good idea? It would allow access to Ashford International for passengers who used to go to Waterloo from Salisbury, Yeovil, Exeter and from stations south of Bristol  :)

Not really convinced the costs would be sustainable for electrification, unless the line from Salisbury - Basingstoke was also electrified.

ah, I see, Southampton to Ashford Intl. is an electrified route then. It's probabaly best to route West Of England customers through So'ton Central and change there.  Do Southern have any diesels?

P.S Where in Devon is your nearest station?

Routing woe passengers via soton would add an age onto the journey, and yes the Southern services are operated by electric trains.

My local station is Goodrington Sands, sadly seeing no national rail services, of which Paignton serves this purpose.

I think it should - after all, we've seen a FGW HST at Minehead!  ;) :D ;D

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6067/800pxclass171southerndifd4.png)  Class 171 Turbostars

I know the feeling D/M! :'(

The diagram above shows a Class 170/1 DMU operated by Southern.

However, they are all used up on current duties (unless Uckfield and Ore lines were electrified = not going to happen).

This has been suggested before elsewhere. The SN Brighton to Ashford is a 171 DMU - because the line is not electrified beyond Ore, which is about half way to Ashford. The running time east of Brighton is 1h44m, Salisbury to Brighton is 2h15m, so 4 hours.  But, I suspect you might need to change at Brighton - I'm not sure for definite, but I don't think you can run from Hove, into Brighton, and reverse out again onto the East Coastway? (Any info welcome on that bit...) 

So the choice is between a 4 hour plus trip, or 90min with 20 mins on the underground, or the direct bus, or a taxi. I know which one I'd choose, especially as Ashford sees a much reduced Eurostar service nowadays...

The point about SN having only enough DMUs for the lines already necessary  is made earlier.

Paul

Here's a picture of the Ashford - Brighton service

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ashford_salisbury.jpg)

Thanks to WikiPedia user Hassocks5489 who has put this in the public domain (so I don't really need to give credit, but I want to anyway!)

I don't know about reversal right across Brighton - I suspect you can't - but just imagine linking up the Ashford - Brighton and Brighton - Gt Malvern services.   Someone will be proposing Waterloo to Manchester next  ;D

If I remember correctly there is (limited) cross-Brighton access. The basic hourly pattern used to include a Littlehampton-Seaford service, but it was withdrawn (c. 2002?). As far as I'm aware the connection is still there, but it wouldn't be a good idea to make heavy use of it - basically one of the 'west' platforms has a connection to the main/east lines. The points are half way down the platform, so a long train couldn't do it, and if another train needs to use the platform or is delayed there then the east/west train is stuck. Also an east/west train will conflict with any main line arrivals/departures as it crosses to/from the platform - all very inconvenient to path!

I would imagine a service would reduce flexibility at the (very full) station.

Surely it would be quicker for people from Salisbury etc to travel via Waterloo and the tube.

A service to Ashford from Salisbury would take a very long time.  Better to take an expensive taxi Waterloo - St Pancras if need be.

Honiton to Salisbury - 1.5 hours
Salisbury to Ashford International (Via Southampton) - 4 hours
Eurostar check-in - min. 30 mins

Total time to join Eurostar: 6 hours

Honiton to London Waterloo - 3 hours
London Waterloo to St Pancras International - 20 mins
Eurostar check-in - min. 30 mins
St Pancras to Ashford International - 40 mins

Total: 4.5 hours

Yes, the Ashford route is 1.5 hours longer but it saves the need to carry luggage around London and you could make a saving on the Eurostar fare (?)

Haven't services from Ashford Int. been drastically curtailed since the opening of St Pancras Int? 

I am sure an etended 'Coastway' service would be appreciated by some, but considering the already lengthy journey time with reversal to/from Brighton and Pompey, you would probably need some sort of suspended animation facility to preserve the passengers.

Yes, although a Brussels train is back soon.

I always thought that more use of Ashford Int. with connections from the West would be a good idea. Look at the population along the South Coast.

However, the fly in onitment is the non electrified section between Ashford and Ore and as has been said previously the crossing from East to West Coast at Brighton.

Ashford Ore should really be a priority elecrification and for  West of Southampton via Salisbury the lines should also be electrified to save DMUS running on electrified lines.

In which case a reasonably limited stop express from Exeter to Brighton with a limited stop Brighton to Ashford  (Lewes Eastbourne Hastings)  connecting service could work. There would be a change at Brighton but it is on the level.   It ought to be able to get nearer the 4.5 hours calculated by Devon trains to catch Eurostar in London rather than 6 hours via Ashford.

Stations from Portsmouth not served by the express would still have local trains to Brighton with which to make the connection. Stations from Brighton to Ashford would also still have local trains.

Must give a potential usage of several million people.

Would that be a Nice Picture of Rye?

Glad to see someone agrees with me  :) when you say it like that it makes me think it would be an even better idea. how about Exeter to Paris express trains?  ;D

The thing is, Eurostar are probably mothballing Ashford. >:(

Although the extra Brussels train is a boost....

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Assuming electrification of the Ore-Ashford and Redbridge-Salisbury gaps, Brighton would be a bottleneck.

Only platform three has access to all routes out of Brighton, and to add to complexity you are limited to either a 4x20m carriage train or 3x23m carriage train (or shorter). Better to run the service via Heywards Heath where it is less likely to get in the way at Brighton.

Whilst a through train via Brighton would be preferrable the change at Brighton is relatively easy as it on the level.

Running via Hove to Preston Park and up to Haywards Heath and back to Eastbourne would be possible not sure of capacity constraints on the Brighton line South of Haywards Heath bearing in mind all three junctions are flat. It would I assumme it would add to the journey time. It would also mean Brighton as one of the largest town on route would not be served so would need a separate service to Ashford

You can I believe  reverse in Preston Park (I've done it Charing Cross to Weymouth via Margate on a railtour) without having to go all the way to Haywards Heath, but again not sure of capacity limitations. This would still serve Brighton. But there would be three reverses in Eastbourne, Brighton and Preston Park. Whereas via Haywards Heath it's two.

Just run a fast service East of Brighton (to Ashford) and a fast service West of Brighton (to Portsmouth or Sailisbury). In addition to local trains, of course.

And have good connexions at Brighton.

The line between Brighton and Haywards Heath is double track and is pretty much full. Crossing 3 flat junctions, and reversing would require many paths (which are not available/are needed for London trains)!

btline - where did you here this out of interest? Last i heard, Ebbsfleet was struggling as it is in the middle of nowhere and Eurostar are failing at playing airline. There is greater demand for Ashford. This was from Ashford press (which I readily admit is not a reliable source).

On another note, Exeter to Ashford on Southern and SET trains = OUCH!!! Leg room and luggage issues. It's bad enough Charing X to Ashford  :(

It is obvious that Eurostar are mothballing Ashford. As soon as Ebbesfleet opened, services were AXED to 4.

The Brussels service was re-introduced as a result of campaigners - some of whom MOVED HOUSE to be able to commute by rail to Brussels! People's daily life was put into turmoil. They now had to drive to Ebbeslfeet (adding time and money), or change jobs/move abroad/to London. It is very similar to what happened at Ashchurch. Many commuters turned up at the station one morning to see that their trains had been scrapped! What is it with "Ash" and having your train to work axed?

According to Eurostar, the two Ashford - Brussels services run at a loss (rubbish IMO - they have to staff the station anyway, and it only slows down two trains by 5 mins).

I am not sure how Ebbesfleet is doing. It would not surprise me if it is failing. Ashford is a major rail interchange (and a large city). Ebbesfleet has the congested M25 and A2.

Hopefully it will fail. Get bulldozed and re-planted with trees. And hopefully that bl**dy horse is BANNED before work starts.

The new SET HSS will allow more places to reach Ebbesfleet and Ashford.

Some of us can only dream of having 4 services a day...

Btline, you do jump to conclusions sometimes. I don't think there is any chance of Ashford being mothballed.

Jump to conclusions? Axing services to 4 a day is pretty hard evidence!

Whilst I doubt the station will close, I doubt service levels will go back up unless Eurostar have a re-think about their stations.

Also bear in mind that Stratford International will open soon as well.

When's that happening then for Eurostar services?

Ha! I suppose, whenever they finish building an access to it!

I don't think it will be served, maybe only during the Olympics.

Does anyone know what will happen at Ashford if they start running more international services? The current station format is 6 platforms off 3 islands. International trains run off the middle island, platforms 3 and 4. The station is next to platform 1 (London bound and Marsh Link) and the CTRL runs next to platform 6 (Canterbury and Coast).

IIRC, stopping trains have to cross the Maidstone and Canterbury lines. It's already pretty busy as it is so with HS services stopping as well and also crossing paths, is it not going to get a little complicated??? That said, pre-CTRL, there were many more Eurostar running on the domestic lines but I have a feeling that domestic services have increased since then. This is delving into childhood memories so quite possibly wrong  :D

Why did they build the station in the current configuration? WOuld it not have made sense to have built the international platform next to the CTRL tracks (which were planned when the station was built as compulsory purchase orders had gone out)?

THe amount of work that was done around Ashford to get the CTRL through and the station built is massive. They are still working on it in fact. The town still grows and the European community is also growing. It is also far easier to get to than London for most people in Kent and Sussex. It has massive potential and Eurostar would be stupid to pull out. Stratford, Ashford and Ebbsfleet is overkill. There is nothing at Ebbsfleet anyway - and it is off one of the busiest strtches of the A2/M25. Quite why they put a station there I don't know.

That was my point. There's no intention anymore of serving it with Eurostars. So I wasn't sure why BTline thought they would do.

Although it defies logic, ES will not call at Stratford Int during the games. This is to "free up capacity". Passengers will have to change at St Pancras/ ebbedfleet and catch a javelin.

I believe that ES will serve Strat Int when it opens. I agree with others - it is overkill.

It is also mad the way ES have withdrwn so many trains from Ash!

You need to look at Quail Track plans but I believe that the connections from  HS1 to the platforms at Ashford are now served by flyunders/overs to and from HS1. Thus not conflicting with normal SE services.

I believe the ES platform lines are now 25 KV overhead,  as I understand the ES sets have had one of their original eight operating modes disabled namely, third rail operation and their conductor shoes removed. Even though  there may still be connections to the third rail on the flat at Ashfiord ES services could not serve serve Waterloo even if HS1 were to be totally shut.

One of the reasons as I understand it why Eurostar will not serve Sratford duirng the Olympics is the difference in platform heights for the ES sets (continental lower) and Javelins (UK higher) so they are going to put a temporay surface on the ES platforms at Stratford to cater for the Javelins.

Also as BTline says to free up capacity aren't the Javelins going to be every 2 minutes?

What with trying to get 30,000 people a day down a single track road to Dorney Lake I am begining to wish Paris had won the bid.

Evening, I've been lurking on here a while now, and also on the 'southeastern' equivalent (The Anglesey Group). As a devonian living in Belgium, and working for a Kent based organisation I can answer a few of the Eurostar/Ashford questions. As I go back and forth between Devon/Kent/Brussels every couple of months

Fly Over/unders only relate to HS1 not the 'classic' lines. as the Eurostar sets enter Ashford from the London end of the station they have to cross the down services from Tonbridge going into platforms 5 & 6. On the country end they have to cross down services to Folkestone/Dover from 5 & 6 and up services From Canterbury going into platform(s 1 &) 2. The majority of the Maidstone Services use a chord that avoids having to use the junctions at the london end. Marshlink uses platform 1

Ebbsleet is quite literally a hole, as it is built in an old quarry! It serves as a 'London Parkway' Station. as for there being nothing there, that's intentional, as new development is supposed to miraculously spring up around it. Land Securities have pretty much put this on hold for the mo. thus leaving a gleaming under-utilised station in the middle of a brown field site. Those of us whose local base is in the Ashford area either have to drive to Ebbsflop, or like me, go all the way into london and back again, 2 additional hours on the journey.

Mothballing Ashford: I don't think they'd be brave enough to try. Eurostar really came in for a lot of negative publicity both within and beyond Kent which was very damaging. Their PR department has been in overdrive trying to spin it out but the damage was done. One thing that was notable was the District/County/Region/Universities were all united and vocal in their condemnation of Eurostar, not just at the time services were withdrawn, but also since. The reintroduction of a Brussels Service (which is timetabled at 0630 so that it doesn't connect with anything) was labelled as 'a good start but...'. Kent has also joined forces with northern French authorities as they're having the same problems with Eurostar regarding stops at Calais-Fr^thun.

Exeter - Ashford via the coastway I would not use for a single journey, it is too long, there's no point as going via london would be much quicker. I do do Exeter to Ashford occasionally with an overnight/weekend stay at Lewes to see a friend, but I either go via SWT to Clapham J or FGW to Reading/Redhill. I then use the Marshlink service from Lewes to Ashford. what I would use is an Ashford to Reading Service as this would provide a good route avoiding London. preferably it would be operated by 'Southern'.

Reverting back to the original topic. Rather than Southern extending to Salisbury, perhaps the Cardiff to Portsmouth route, and a suitable amount of 158s be ceded to SWT. after all their hub for DMUs is at Salisbury, which is slap bang in the middle of the line. and the ride from Exeter to Salisbury was always nicer than Salisbury to Portsmouth. not done it since the days of Wessex though, but I can't for the life of me imagine it'll have improved!

Thanks Brusseller for your perspective! What is your view on Southeastern's proposed AXING of services next year? (see other thread)

Hopefully Ashford will see more trains re-instated over the next year.

I don't think ES trains have continental door heights. After all, initially, ES ran on BR tracks all the way into Waterloo. One of the Waterloo platforms is now used by SWT. (without major mods) The reason why they are not stopping is to free up capacity.

I wonder how many calls ES Stratford Int will get.... (at the cost of Ebbesfleet/Ashford..??)

I can't see why they don't cut the ES services from Stratford and Ebbsfleet and call at Ashford instead, passengers using Stratford and Ebbsfleet can catch one of the new HS1 domestic services to Ashford and then change to Eurostar.

Pain in the rear, will go in search of that thread!


one of those design querks to meet multiple specs. the bottom of the door is roughly at UK platform height. but there is then a step up into the carriage. For continental platforms there is a retractable step that come out so that people can step up and down. it is not particularly ideal for people with reduced mobility, but then not much is this side of Dover!


This would be too logical! We've been told the opposite, that we have to get the highspeed service from Ashford to Ebbsfleet to pick up the Eurostar there! so my trip'll be Brussels > Ebbsflop > Ashford > Maidstone East. I'll pass Maidstone Services (M20 J8) 3 times in the same journey!

Brusselier

Perhaps ES will order new stock now the whole route is European loading gauge.

The problem with that is that the Tunnel regs will have to amended in particular the ability to transfer passengers into one half of the train, split the train  and drive that half out of the tunnel, would have to be repealed. However the H&S guys don't think, even after two the fires, it's an absurb idea. Especially given it takes at least 30 minutes to split a Eurostar. Easier to send in a Thunderbird and drag the set out if necessary evacuating teh passnegers into teh emergency tunnel. There are also I believe fire door requirements between coaches for use in the tunnel but that's not so onerous.

DB would love to run ICE 3s from Frankfurt to St Pancras. 4 hours station to station?

Hopefully DB will run some. Although it will be embarrassing/ sad that all the trains at St Pancras will be foreign*. (ESs are pretty much TGVs)

Come on, let's have some BR high speed trains!

*Excluding Javelins - but they aren't High Speed (<155 mph at 140, and only 100 in Kent!).

Now here^s a challenge.

Can anyone name the last ^pure^ UK passenger train/stock/locomotive built in the UK, and has to include wholly UK owned component suppliers.

I would suspect that post 1960^s technology you would struggle to find anything.

HST^s as originally built maybe, and the technology in the APT, after that all major rail manufacturing in the UK became partially if not wholly foreign owned, or components sourced from outside the UK, pretty much like all European industry.

So for the current ^foreign^ trains arriving in to St Pancras remember that Alstom was at one time GEC-Alstom, and that even current major shareholders are quite diverse, and there was quite a bit of UK involvement in their building even if TGV based, and are currently 40% owned by NX.

For the new HST I suspect that Alstom withdrew gracefully due to being both unable to easily convert current production to meet the spec and already had an order book pretty packed. Bombardier were probably persuaded to remain in the race to give some option to judge the Javelin derivative against, with Derby having orders coming out of their ears for the next few years to including the sweeteners of early purchase of 172^s for Portsmouth/Cardiff so I^m unsure how they would have fulfilled an order.

Possibly one of the reasons we will be getting 172^s sooner rather than later, or am I being a little cynical.

Weren't the Turbos British built at York by BR?

They pioneered the long continous aluminium welding machines to make the bodies.

I believe on privatisation York went to Brown Boveria (Swiss) later ABB?. I understand the machine was moved to Switzerland (or somewhere in Europe) when York closed due to lack of orders during the 90s.

So another British technology lost!

Quick potted history from Wiki.

In 1989 it was purchased by the Swiss-Swedish conglomerate ABB (ASEA-Brown Boveri) 40% and Trafalgar House 40% and a MEBO (Management-Employee Buy-Out) of 20% forming BREL Ltd. It was latterly bought out by ABB to form ABB Transportation Ltd. This company was itself subsequently merged with Daimler-Benz to form ADtranz (ABB-Daimler Benz Transportation), and even later was bought by the Canadian conglomerate, Bombardier.

The privatisation of British Rail caused a hiatus in the ordering of new rolling stock, which ultimately led to the demise of the York works. Following the closure of the Metro-Cammell (now Alstom) plant in Birmingham in 2005, only the former BREL facility in Derby remains as a major manufacturer of rolling stock in the United Kingdom.

For early DMU's developed under BR I'm not sure of the ownership of Cummins but Voith transmission is certainly German.

The Class 323s was built by Hunslet TPL.

The company then collapsed. >:(

It is such a shame how we, the British - once world leaders, are now tiny in the rail industry.

The start was the APT. Privatisation has killed the remainder.

All those skills lost.... :'(

Agree. Unfortunatately the so called "failure" of the  ATP gave an anti rail government the excuse they needed to reduce investment in rail especialy new rolling stock. Privatisation finished the job.

Rumour has it that Derby (BR Reasearch) were very near to sorting out the ATP when the plug was pulled.

The major problem with the ATP seems to be that there were too many new technologies built into the train. Not only tilt but also hydrostatic brakes etc. This always causes problems.

Had they put tilt in one and brakes in another then put together when they were both working it would probably have come together quicker.

It seems to be a problem in British engineering that in order to get money to develop new technology you have to be revolutionary rather than evolutionary.

Concorde being a classic case with both a revolutionary airframe and new highly stressed engines. The other famous case was the Avro Manchester/Lancaster. As designed the Manchester with two new engines was a flop until fitted with 4 Merlins it became the Lancaster.



 

Just been checking the NRE website:

For a family of four with railcard Honiton to Ashford International is ^60 cheaper than Honiton to London International (AKA St Pancras) - although 1.5 hours longer it does avoid the trek across London...

Is that asking for tickets to London International CIV?

Yep... That's what it says in seat 61

I have realised the Ashford fare is Ashford International (Eurostar) and goes via London Waterloo!

Crazy!

London International CIV fares are extortionate! (even when compared to "walk-up" tickets)

Moreton-in-Marsh-Paddington anytime return is ^57, to London International CIV is ^38. I would call that a pretty substantial saving.

The point of the CIV ticket is to allow you to travel into London in the peaks at fares below those charged to domestic passengers and offers the guarantee that if you miss your Eurostar, due to problems elsewhere, they will put you on the next available service.

Of course, if you're travelling outside the peak and/or have a railcard of some sort, you can get cheaper fares such as Savers, but you won't have the guarantee about onward travel that the CIV ticket offers.

I agree that they are good for peak time (although you need a peak CIV ticket going into Euston - a ticket which is pricey).

But advance fares are much cheaper! ^11 vs about >^30

Looks like the prospective MP for Rye and Hastings has been reading you

http://www.ryeandbattleobserver.co.uk/news/local/call-for-direct-south-coast-train-line-route-1-6538899