Great Western Coffee Shop

Just recieved clarification that 15 (17?) sets are to refurbished at Delta Rail in Derby to include a mini buffet in a standard class trailer to be located in coach E (the disabled coach will be moved to the position of C). 2 Ex Virgin TSOs will be converted for use with HST trailers.

When "One" did this 24 standard seats were lost. All other sets will have a buffet, and I believe all disabled coaches will be moved to the coach C.

Do we know which route will be running this service..? Should be something a bit different.

I think you might mean 'Brush Barclay' at Kilmarnock as I am fairly sure thats where the 2 x Mk3 LHCS TSO and EC64 have gone for refurbishment for FGW. I may be wrong though

I think you might mean 'Brush Barclay' at Kilmarnock as I am fairly sure thats where the 2 x Mk3 LHCS TSO and EC64 have gone for refurbishment for FGW. I may be wrong though

A bit worse you mean. Mainly the Bristol route I suspect.

So having packed in all those extra seats like sardines, a fair proportion will now be taken out again to build the new buffet. Result, broadly unchanged standard class capacity, significantly reduced first class capacity, and an inferior buffet. But one less coach so less leasing costs, fuel costs, and track access charges.

Better enjoy those nice comfy old style seats in the unrefurbed buffet cars whilst they're still running around. 

Only 8 First Class seats are lost. Whenever I have seen First Class everybody has a table for themselves. Its XC who need to sort of First Class accommodation.

Admittadely seats will be lost, i'd rather an extra coach was added, but with FGW having to pay for LHCS around Bristol I this is a worthy measure. Hopefully journey times will come down.

Aren't the 24 or so in the buffet lost?

This is bad news. FGW should just keep the buffets. More seats, better facilities, no chance of a mini buffet running to Penzance (it WILL happen at some point).

A Mini Buffet is much better than a trolley, the loss of seats will be negligble as believe it or  not every fgw service runs about full and standing,

Indeed, service will be no worse than the "Express Cafe". Will have a microwave oven etc. Simply will struggle serving travelling chef menu/pullman.

Room for passenger increase and more cheap fares should be used to fill up the trains, not abandoning the buffet.

Sorry, FGW should have an identical HST fleet.

Ah, Sorry I misunderstood what the formation would be.

Am I right in thinking it will be a 4.5 standard class carriages and and 2 first class carriages?

If I am then yes that would be alot worse. Whats wrong with the way things are. Surely they would lose money in the long term considering what FGW have spend refurbishing most of the Buffet cars. Also why don't they keep the buffets and convert them into standard seating Mwhich will bring more seats for Standard class passangers. I would suspect though they like to keep first class in the buffets because of Pullman Dining. Or maybe a Trailer Composite like XC's HST's. I only ever see first class busy on weekends and most of the time (not meaning to sound snobby here) it's travellers with advance first tickets or weekend first upgrades.

I believe there is quite a big First Class market on services into and out of Paddington to the west country on Monday mornings and Friday afternoons. Same applies to Cross Country, been on a no-seats free in First Voyager between Bristol and Newton Abbot where it emptied out.

The main problem is money, if the buffets stay I imagine fares would go up which nobody wants!

Yep, 7 coach sets, 2 first and 5 standard with a chunk (not half) taken out of one for the micro-buffet.

All the refurbed buffets will stay, it's the unrefurbed ones which are still around which will go (hence my comment about having a last nostalgic ride on an old style one if you can.)

At weekends yes of course it's leisure travellers on advance tickets or weekend first upgrades, but during the week 1st class is busy in and out of London. Though I would admit that on Friday my morning service from Nailsea to Swindon was a coach short in 1st, yet we all squeezed in somehow, though I nearly had to share my table with someone. So I don't think cutting from 2.5 to 2 coaches will be the end of the world for 1st. 

The Buffet is a completley different beast than a normal trailer car, so conversion would be prohibitive also dont leasing co would allow it anyway.
most of the unrefurb buffets floating about ex project rio/ mml stock and are in a bit of a state now, and as most passengers only want a drink /snack  they will still have a bar to prop up if they so wish so a mini buffet will do fine ,from what i have been told its actually not that mini and a high quality product

Presumably what we're talking about will be something like the NXEA Mk3 TSOB conversions built for the Norwich-London trains that didn't have restaurant cars - until the recent cuts. Details below swiped from an InterCity Railway Society newsletter from 2006. There's a pic as well if you scroll down to Page 23, at ]http://www.icrs.org.uk/Site/Members%20Area/Magazine/July%202006.pdf] (http://www.icrs.org.uk/Site/Members%20Area/Magazine/July%202006.pdf) but it just shows the blanked-off bit of bodywork at the back of the buffet area

First of TSOB^s Arrive For ONE Anglia.
The seating compartment is the same finish as the refurbished Mark 3a TSO, which are already in use. Conversion has taken place at Bombardier^s Derby works where the other Mark 3^s have been refurbished. Three windows worth of seats (about eight rows) and a toilet have been removed and in their place a counter complete with microwave oven, refrigerator and plenty of shelving. A PA transmitter has also been fitted for the buffet crew to make announcements. There is also a thin shelf been fitted to the wall at window height opposite the bar for standing passengers and handrails fitted at the same height extending along the opposite wall the length of the counter area and around the counter These are picked out in a bright yellow.

Fair Enough. I don't normally go to London with FGW. I commute to work on the 7:15 Taunton - Bath Spa Service which in First Class is either empty or moderately busy, even then, the bulk of passengers get on at Bristol Temple Meads. I've only ever had to share my table with someone once. Despite loads of empty tables being available, but thats a different story altogether ;)

Your right about XC being busy in First Class. It's normally either empty or packed. What does annoy me though is when I buy a walk up First Class ticket to visit my Parents and I normally go back on a Sunday and all the standard class passengers sit in First Class and the ticket inspectors do nothing about it. Fair enough there is no seats and I can sympathise. But i've paid full walk up price and don't have a seat because the train managers have allowed to many people to upgrade >:(

But back onto topic. I think that mini buffets would be a good idea in principle because they would reduce the weight and allow HST's better acceleration. But will probably cause more long term problems that perhaps people realise. Maybe adding an extra standard class carriage or as I said before a composite carriage. Or bring back LHCS. I've seen plenty of FGW Fag Packet liviered stock floating around the rail network :)

East customer panel minutes contain an update on progress with the mini-buffet cars. First one of the 18 is at Derby for conversion and due back in May, with 14 seats lost, but all 2+7 sets will have the toilet in coach A reinstated for passenger use.

Eight more existing buffet cars are to be refreshed to match the rest of the fleet and all HSTs will have a buffet car of some sort "from late 2009".

I've thought about the capacity issue for some time.

Why doesn't FGW do what Virgin did, and turn the buffet cars around, so the half coach of First class seating can instead be used as a half coach of standard class seating?

If you look in buffet cars, there are no reading lamps in the first class area - where the vehicles were previously used as standard class.

Surely the above solution would create more standard class seating (allowing for more tables lol), not significantly reduce first class accommodation, and retain a full buffet service?

Bit late now tho...

That would be a sensible option. But FGW have decided again the best option.

How long before a mini buffet 2+7 ends up on a Friday evening Cornwall service (Pullman)? Very silly....

Well quite ... within the first fortnight?!

Of course they won't use mini-buffets on that route! Just like the 142s were never going to go west of Newton Abbot...

Anyone know how much faster the 7+2s will be?  Is it likely to be something passengers will notice?
Also I hope there's still room to loiter at the bar.  If it's standing room only, might as well prop up the bar and have a beer...

Is it not physically hard to turn a carriage around?  something to do with the couplings?

The likelyhood of a mini buffet on the 1803/1903 from Paddington is very unlikely. Sets at paddington can easily be stepped up.

Remember, the buffet is designed to face standard class and the narrow alley would be a nightmare along with the fact that there are a number of services where First class is full.

Hmm yes i see your point.

Possibly the reason the standard buffets were altered to first buffets? Hence the lack of reading lights.

I do see the fact that when a queue forms from standard class at the buffet, that large open area is very useful.

How could GNER insert  a ninth vehicle into its sets to help capacity, while FGW seems to need to remove a carriage? Does speeded up timings really justify such a move?

It wasn't Virgin that came up with having standard class seating in buffet car. The CrossCounty fleet of HSTs were always like that from the day they were delivered to BR, formed 2+7 with one first open. The standard class seating areas in the buffet coaches was normally placed at the first class end of the coach on XC sets.

And I have a book with a picture of a 2+8 set HST leaving Moreton-in-Marsh in 1988 formed with a buffet with standard seating, which has the kitchen/counter area at the first class end - quite a few Western Region sets ran like this for much of their early life, until the BR InterCity sector converted the seats to first class.

A mini-buffet set is highly unlikely to ever go west of Bristol under normal circumstances (perhaps on summer Saturdays). They will make up a third of the fleet, which means Oxford/Cotswolds and Bristol diagrams - and even if there is a problem, as devon metro says, a suitable set with a full buffet will be stepped up for a West Country or South Wales service.

There is not going to be a large area for people to stand in - these things are designed to minimise seating loss - think something like an Adelante buffet or the buffets in converted Mk2 first class coaches that ran in CrossCountry loco-hauled sets.

But I thought HST availability was very poor (hence the Turbos on Cotswolds).

So what happens when there are no working HSTs to do a Pullman train, apart from a 2+7.

And during peak times, the 8 coaches are needed (both First and Standard!).

As for any time improvements, they are clearly not needed. A Turbo (with its relatively poor acceleration - shown in a graph on another thread - and lower top speed) can run London to Oxford in less than an hour - I don't think the extra speed is needed.

Although the plans are better than the original trolley idea (and the NXEC proposals) I still think it is a VERY bad move.

I've got the answer, your not going to like it i'm afraid. Cancel the Pullman Restaurant would be the order of the day. (If you'll forgive the pun ;D )

In all honesty I would say the chances of a HST with proper buffet not being available, would be slim. If it did happen. I guess it would be our friend Bad Luck being drawn out of the bag ;)

But it is not just the loss of the restaurant (which is very popular on the services I mention). It is the loss of seats!

Why can a company like Firstgroup justify removing trailers from its HSTs - even though there is a recession, when it manages to post such massive year on year profits?

Granted, there has been much investment on the route recently, but what I feel sets FGW apart from other operators such as Crosscountry, National Express and the like are the good facilities on its trains - full buffet/travelling chef/pullman service, ample first class, comfortable standard class, with good leg room, a good number of toilets, and clean trains. I find even the local trains a pleasure to travel on over other operators - give me an FGW '158' over a Voyager, or SWT '444' any day of the week.

If cutbacks like this take place too often, FGW is in danger of sliding into the absolute minimum of on board services, such as those seen on the Weymouth to Waterloo line.

I'm sure I read somewhere that FGW's justification for removing a carriage was that it would improve acceleration and thus speed up services with lots of stops (into which I read the Cotswold line).  This was some time ago though, I guess things have changed since then.

I think you forget that they originally wanted TROLLEYS

As far as I know, FGW are already spening more money than they wished, hence proposed cuts in certain areas......

Andrew Haines spent money where it was needed but it was more money than "Sir" Moir* would have liked.  Now Andrew is gone we are getting the cuts

* I am sure that you are a very nice man Mr Lockhead, just don't think you deserved a knighood "for services to transport" when your companies have been decidedly mixed in passenger service.

Also led to believe the current MD is spending too much...!

Did I?


And how much money will FGW waste paying compensation to passengers expecting a Pullman etc?

1154 & 1953 EXD-PAD services are currently all 2+7 with trolley service, so no reason why they won't have a 'mini-buffet'.

Whatever happened to "subject to availability"

I think the chances of a non buffet set not being at Paddington between 1730 and 1803 is highly unlikely. Its also worth noting that the set that forms the up Golden Hind forms the return. If FGW were being sensible, they would try not to swap the diagram:

1A76 0505 PNZ-PAD, 1B25 1045 PAD-SWA, 1L71 1429 SWA-PAD, 1C92 1803 PAD-PNZ.

I am talking about a train failure. And as other members have pointed out, HST availability is poor (and is about to get worse when the 180s go).

Don't panic, new financial year is only a couple of weeks away  ;D  (How many times have I heard that one recently!)

One 2+8 Low Density Sets with 407xx Buffet Vehicle is kept spare at Old Oak during the day anyway.

But they're not peak restaurant/travelling chef trains all the way to Plymouth and Cornwall, which is what certain people are getting exercised about here. The overwhelming majority of regular work, day in, day out, will be Cotswold/Bristol/Cheltenham services.

True, pullmans are frequently canceled and AFAIK no compensation is payable in such cases.

Enjoy the pullman while you can ! I doubt that the new trains will have a proper restaurant, we will be lucky to get a buffet if other new trains are anything to go by!.

Technically..... could FGW purchase an additional MK3 carriage thats going spare, (think the ones that NXEC were originally having) and convert it for HST use, to enable an additional coach to be added to replace the space in the formation left by the bufet car?  This would dramatically increase the seating, while also allowing easy installation of the mini buffet, with no loss of seats.  Would this dramatically change the accelration speeds which FGW hope to improve though???

I personnaly would much rather hvae a guaranteed seat than a buffet car anyday. 

Most of the saving from 2+7 comes from the leasing costs of the extra coach.  Having an extra coach would negate this benefit.

Had the economy not taken such a nose-dive then that may have been a cost worth having, but at the moment I can't blame FGW for being cautious. Should things improve then perhaps that will still be an option? Although the performance of a 2+7 is better than a 2+8 it really is negligible and really not worth exploiting in terms of shaving minutes off of the timetable.

Here's a link to my Blue Peter style graph of acceleration performance: http://img249.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=00854_img344_122_362lo.jpg (http://img249.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=00854_img344_122_362lo.jpg)

Its always noticeable when you are on a 2+7

I was on a set a few weeks back between Exeter and Tiverton with a TS missing (which is lighter than a buffet!) and it managed to complete the journey in 12 minutes, an average speed of 80mph.

Had a look at the mini buffet mock up today.....and it is more of a midi buffet. i reckon its about twice the size of a voyager shop

Anybody know if the introduction of these mini-buffets will herald a re-introduction of catering facilities on the Oxford-London services (the ones that start/terminate at Oxford)?

No

Why not? Surely an InterCity service of 1hr length should have a buffet car?

I assumed "super tm" meant no, she (or he) didn't know the answer.

Seen a poster today at Castle Cary advertising the new Buffets...! Apparently some are being refurbished and others will be new ones...! Ahem, converted TS carriages more like... ;)

Turbos don't

Oxford fasts should be HSTs.

Not at the expense of other services.

That was not my point anyway.

Many turbos are well over an hours long and have absolutly no catering at all.

exmouth to barnstaple.......over an hour (about an hour for the exeter-barnstaple part) no buffet
the loco hauled taunton to cardiff no buffet
swt service exeter to waterloo most of the time no buffet or trolly in this case

so why would this service have one?

Because it is a well used, half hourly, InterCity service!

True, but when the Oxford-London's were all Turbos they managed to find enough trade to have a trolley service on them.