Great Western Coffee Shop

Not sure how concrete this is:

From December 15th

0732 TAU - BPW
0913 BPW - TAU
1102 TAU - CDF
1400 CDF - TAU
1612 TAU - CDF
1900 CDF - TAU

ECS from/to Barton Hill with TnT 67s & Mk 2s

This is very similar to a service which was planned last December as contingency, but Network Rail sat on the scheme.   

0913 BPW departure only goes as far as WSM looking at the NRES journey planner for 15th December. Is this going to run ECS from WSM to TAU?

These times have appeared on other railway forums, and don't seem to tie-up very comfortably with existing diagrams. Indeed the 0732 becomes 0728 from the new timetable.

Would have hoped that the LHCS set would have appeared on the 1600 or 1700 ex-CDF which are both busy trains!

Anyhow, this has been confirmed by First Great Western

Does this train need more capacity then a 2 car dmu (at least the 0732) because the Yatton and Nailsea stops in the following XC service are withdrawn?

Its more a case of freeing up stock resources, as 143s are off on a jolly to Exeter, this service formerly a 143 I presume.

Besides the 1612 from Taunton forms a 1725 (ish) from Bristol, so presumably might be squeeze!

if rumours are to be believed it is because FGW are losing 5 142's and ATW 150's in december so they have no choice but to contract some cardiff-taunton work to EWS going to be 2x class 60's and 4 coaches.

i would imagine once they eventually get the stock from LM these will not be running,must be costing a fortune.

I hear that this is going to happen. 2 x 67s and 4 coaches, almost certainly the 'Virgin' rake, (or similar), used on the summer  Weymouths.   Train to  be run by EWS crews with a possible FGW conductor selling tickets.

No 'new' stock at all for FGW this winter, so no more 150/1s, three car or otherwise.  Shortfall to  be made up by splitting the hybrid 158s and reverting to 2 car operation.  I am told FGW can do  this because this was the level of service quoted when they took the franchise.  I must underline that this is only word of mouth and I have not seen anything concrete.  However, source is unimpeachable.

I've read that elsewhere too - but haven't seen it confirmed by FGW anywhere yet.

Very distrubing to hear. Its dispicable to believe that the DfT can allow this when other areas get service improvements, whilst our timetable which remains the same gets less stock to provide it!

I find this difficult to believe. There will be a riot. And only today FirstGroup stated in their latest investor report how they have stengthened the services to 3 coaches.

From a front line perspective, I hope that this is just rumour. :(

First they split them, then they reform them...

..now they are splitting them again. ::)

I bet Andrew Haines didn't bank on this happening when he announced it! ;D

However, if overcrowding gets worse again due to the 2 car 158s, and there is a nightmare after the new year (cancellations), the MTLS Fares Strike will be resurected. :( >:(

By the way, have they updated their website recently? :D

why not use 67 and 4 coaches on exmouth-paighton? after all that would free up two trains per trip (double pacers) and also ease over crowding

Oh please no, not another winter of discontent in FGW land. Fares are bound to be going up again in January and the sleeping MTLS campaign will be awoken once again if we see 158s reverting back to 2 cars and overcrowding returning. Somebody tell us this isn't going to happen  >:(

Why do ATW suddenly need their five 150s back?

Success of the Valley lines, Ebbw Vale and half hourly Merthyrs etc. Plus is it their 158s that are going for ERTMS to be fitted for the Cambrian?

150/1s or not, (and I believe not), 5 143s are bound for Exeter, two to return on a daily basis for the SVB line. (Hence the loco hauled set). The ATW units are also due to return to the land of song, which will leave a large hole.  Apart from the undesirability of reducing 3 car 158s, these units are inherently unsuitable for intensive suburban use, as  despite their 90mph top speed, they have no intermediate doors, which makes for slow boarding/exits.  The 'good' news is that the 2 x 150/1s currently shuffling about the system will be staying.

On paper I'd agree that 158s aren't suitable for suburban work, but an interesting case is 2C83 1600 CDF-TAU. This was, by Andrew Haines admission, one of FGWs worst performing trains for some time. The reason appeared were the boarding times of the sheer weight of passengers, particularly at Bristol TM. Since a switch to regular 3-car 158/9, however it was clear that the run between Severn Tunnel Jcn and Bristol TM was also a source of delay.

The additional capacity, extra doors and better performance on the long non-stop stretch has brought 2C83 back to some semblance of normality over the past month or two, but when something deputises for a 158/9 the delays return. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that because of the way the current timetable is built, there are very few purely suburban routes at all.

Trust me. This is going to happen.  ;)

I don't think Network Rail want class 67's running on routes that are less than RA8. Taunton - Cardiff is RA10 throughout.

Far too many stops on that route, not to mention the maul of people trying to get through one door at Exeter Central!

Would make more sense to use LHS on some of the Cornish diagrams!

What's LHS?

The sooner the LM 172s arrive, the better for FGW (despite their "clapped out" state)!

Locomotive Hauled Stock  (I think - but I'm no expert! ::) ;D )

well network rail would be ok with locos from st davids to paignton as it already happens im not sure about to exmouth you may have a point to to me 4 carrages with two doors on each side total of 8 and the guard can walk all the way threw the train sounds better than two pacers coupled together guare can only be in one at a time and only 6 doors......

I believe its one of the smaller Bristol built bus chassis. :D :D


The Locomotive and coaches option does have some merit. Ideally however you need a formation that can be driven from either end. DVT's or DBSO is needed to maximise productivity and minimise faffing around trying to run round at Bristol TM and places like that.

That's why it would run "Top and Tail" (i.e. a 67 each end.)

It's also cheaper to drag a second loco around on the back of the train all day rather than pay for a shunter when running round. Says a lot about today's railway!

TLM

The ATW unit's are not going back in December, 3 are to return to Wales in May, FGW have just been given the 6 month notice to return 3 of them.

Thanks for the update Vacman. I remember that there was an agreement that ATW had to give FGW notice before they had to be returned.

Any chance any LM 150s will be available by next May? Five 142s are still leaving in December so that will leave FGW with even less rolling stock once 3 150s go back to ATW unless something can take their place.

No way, LM 172s are the end of the batch, so 2010 (late 2009) at the earliest!

i thought LM were releasing 001 and 002 this december? something to do with timetable change allowed them to be freed up.

I must say I had thought that the three were going back before then and that the notice applied to the remainder.  Good news there then!

We welcome any spare units that are going simply because they are needed.

Ah, well the Wolverhampton - Walsall and Stourbridge lines won't need their 153s from December.
 >:(

Both routes are being replaced by a bus.

My "source" doesn't seem to know anything about us getting 001 and 002 in december?? but who knows, logic would say that the LHCS would be used on Weymouths every day next summer to free up at least two unit's at a time.

Without giving anything vital away, Gloucester turns include long layovers at Swindon, thus plenty  of time to gossip with those in the know.  I hear, as I posted elsewhere, that the 001 002 'deal' is not going to happen. At least Vacman's good news re the ATW units will give us some breathing space, but what then? A 4TC hauled by a Crompton class 33 perhaps? ;D   ( Ex SR trailer car set designed to  be split from a high horsepower REP unit and diesel loco hauled.  Used to plug the Bomo Weymouth gap).  My point is that if the technology existed in 1967, it should be easy-peasy to implement now.

That would be the most sensible thing to happen. There would need to be some modification to the timetable in the summer to a couple services to/from Bristol to Gloucester/Worcester/Great Malvern with the loco service operating between Bristol and Weymouth with DMUs taking over at Bristol heading north.

Would FGW be able to revert back to a 2 car operation on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line despite it being part of the service plan in the original franchise because of the remedial plan announced back in February committing FGW to operating 3 car trains until summer 2011. See below link:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/improveperffgw


I read that as being that FGW cannot go back on the agreement to operate 3 car 158s on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line so cuts in capacity would have to be made elsewhere if FGW are not able to source rolling stock to replace the 3 150s going back to ATW in May as Vacman has reported. I don't think that would happen and we would possibly see more loco hauled activity operating West services next summer until the LM 150s arrive.

There is also the issues of track occupation to run round at Cardiff Station / West end, due to the amount of HST's and units going down there to reverse. I don't think blocking two lines to run the loco round the stock would be that welcome at Cardiff, even if there was sufficient time to do so. Taunton is a two mile run round since the '80s track rationalisation.

It does incur a substantial performance penalty as you are then towing 90 tonnes (equal to about three coaches) around DIT on the back end. 67's are not exactly noted for high tractive effort (about 31000lb) or rapid getaways. The Taunton stoppers are quite smartly timed, only recovery time is through the Severn Tunnel, Filton - Bristol TM & the usual bit between the penultimate and last station.

if 2 loco hauled sets were used then there wouldn't be an issue at all with unit shortages! with a bit of jigging of the diagrams then the sleeper stock could be used on a couple of the Pnz-Ply diagrams (just like it was in the '80's!) i.e. the 1036 Pnz-Ply, 1244 Ply-Pnz, 1450 Pnz-Ply and 1706 Ply-Lsk then empty to Pnz or continue as a limited stop service to Pnz arriving about 1900 leaving 3 hours before the sleeper departure. only problem is covering the Bri-Pnz part of the diagram, which I think is the 05xx from Bri.

05:29 from Bristol. 2C42.

thats the one, i've thought of a way to solve that problem, the "extra" HST that leaves Pnz at 1055 in the summer could start from Laira in the morning and work a local service from Plymouth to Penzance in place of 2C42, this would involve an ECS working in the evening to get the extra set to Laira, as the "summer only" extra is stabled at Longrock from 1C85 which also additionally works through to Penzance during the summer months.

maybee ive been thinking about this the wrong way first have taken over the airport to scotland route up north.... this would be ideal for locos..... send us your newish trains now !! lol

quite correct they would be in breach of the franchise agreement if 3 cars were split again.

they cannot split them until 2011 at earliest hence why we are having loco hauled stuff.

i have also seen 158952 and 953 have had there added on cars changed from 748 vehicles to 745 vehicles so it looks like we are a 2 car short for now.i would suspect 748 needs some time based heavy maintenance work doing,anyone know what is being done to it?

I do hope you are right and I'm sure you are, my source is only a minor deity, not the big noise. But...by reading between the lines, could the use of summer be a clue as to just when these trains will be 3 car.  Hopefully in winter too of course.


In continuing the mischief theme, consider... what is to stop 2 car 158s being stretched with 153's, thus giving a more flexible 3 car formation? it couldn't happen...could it?

From my reading of the DfT 'Remedial Plan Notice' for FGW (available at http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/improveperffgw), it's clear that any reduction in the provision of three-car 158s would equate to a breach of the franchise agreement:



So it won't happen.  Will it?   :-X

153's aren't allowed to Portsmouth so that rules that idea out.

Hmmm ... part of the franchise as awarded (the commitment) was that FGW would provide a train from West Wiltshire (Westbury, Trowbridge, Melksham) to arrive in Swindon between 8 and 8:30 in the morning.   However, this was mysteriously changed by what looks rather like collusion between the Dft and FGW, so I wouldn't bet on the three car commitment actually staying ... especially if removing it could get a few more labour votes in Wales - just like that earlier change was made to help the seat of the labour MP in the Stroud Valley

Spoilsport! ;D  We do have a 153 diagrammed run which goes to Southampton though

I suppose it all rather depends on whether FGW or DFT have perfected the knack of magic-ing operational 15x units out of thin air. Always going to be problems if you base your service delivery on subleased rolling stock as opposed to stock permanently allocated to the franchise.

Whoever sent 8 x 150/2's to Grumbly Gasworks Railways in December 2006 wants shooting IMHO.

DaFT decision?

Having travelled on the so called Grumbly Gasworks' latest railway yesterday, both the 2x Class 150 I was on coming down the valley, and the similarly formed preceding service which we passed on our way up, were both full and standing  long before they got to Rogerstone.

Now admittedly traffic flows were higher than usual yesterday, but the units are certainly being put to good use in Wales, judging by the well publicised traffic figures for the Ebbw Vale line.   

 

Yeah, I have heard the Ebbw Vale line is very sucessfull at the moment.  Possibly more so than the Vale of glamorgan line?

Can 6 car units run on those services though? 

No, only 4 car on EV. Not sure about Vale of G.

Some services on the VoG are four car every day, but are usually 2x pacer units (e.g. the 17:41 from Cardiff to Bridgend- this is usually pretty full) rather than sprinters. 2 car trains are most likely to be Sprinters. Ebbw vale is usually two car Sprinters (rarely pacers), though are often bolstered to 4 coaches at the week end. Generally, Arriva's rostering is impressively rock solid around Cardiff- you will get the same combination running at the same time each day, rather than having whatever scrapings are lying around Canton at any given time. I know that the Vale of Glamorgan trains do a "W pattern"- which includes running from Barry Island to Methyr T, then back through Cardiff to Bridgend via Rhoose, then back up to Abedare. Sometimes trains can be short formed, but they usually put this right at the first opportunity as the train passes through Cardiff. The trains most prone to short forming seem to be trains heading up the valleys between five and six: this is when the most units are in use, so it is less likely that short formings can be corrected. Even with things relatively settled, it can still be pretty crowded. it's still a huge improvement on how things were, say five years ago. Still, people will actually invest ^ in railways in Wales.

Platforms have been adjusted so that six car trains can run from Treherbert to Cardiff, Rhymney Valley to Cardiff and Penarth- however, there are not enough trains to run 6 car trains yet. All other services can manage at least four car, except for Maesteg (four car platform extensions in progress) and possibly the City Line.

I hope some common sense prevails and FGW actually get the trains to meet demand- however, I do think that maybe it is time to let go of the through trains to Brighton. I can remember Southampton to Portsmouth etc being a total trial in a clapped out Hampshire Unit- however, I was amazed at the quality of the Southern Electrostars now on the route. Surely it would not be a big ask to get people to change at Southampton + tweak the lecky service accordingly? I guess it would even be a cross platform interchange, so not too bad for those with lugage.

Daniel

Axing services to Brighton would also improve reliability and service flexibility/ service recovery.

Then again, I am sure the people of Worcester would be disappointed to lose the 6 hour direct service to Brighton... ;D </sarcasm>

Do Rail mag get their info from here one wonders, this diagramme is in todays edition.

right guys, some clarity on some issues, the ATW sets are NOT yet destined to go back to ATW, there are no plans at present, there is a possibilty that 2 sets MAY return to ATW in May but not yet decided, 158's are staying as 3 cars NO MATTER WHAT! I know a few more bits and pieces but I really can't post them because if they get into the public domain then it could affect the outcome but put it this way big plans are afoot for the better at FGW!

Well one thing I've learnt is that Vacman is pretty reliable in terms of such knowledge. So here's hoping.....

Absolutely. Thanks for the good news Vacman.

As usual the rumours are flying around, the 1st Loco hauled set is 100% guaranteed with the timings in place for loco + stock. 1611 Taunton - Cardiff for example is fast from Weston SM-Bristol

As for the Rail Magazines getting info from here, unlikely as this was posted elsewhere.

DM

I should probably have used the tongue in cheek smiley.  :P

Was that a rake of Cargo D's and grubby 67's I saw this morning at Barton Hill being formed up?

As ever, I bow to your insider knowledge, but the last, (but 1?) issue of 'Connect' mentioned that the ATW sets are on temp lease with a 3 month recall. Apparently, the call home was issued in November.  Curious and curiouser!

Three weeks ago, rumour was rife in the Brizzle area that at least some hybrid 3 car 158s would be shortened, although I have been on holiday and things may well be clearer now.  What does seem to be set in stone though, is the non-appearance of the LM 3 car 150s

I think I'm right in saying that 7/8 158s are required to operate diagrams on the Cardiff-Pompey line. There are currently 10 hybrid 158s and 1 three car 158 so in theory and with some very careful working you could split a couple of hybrid sets up but this would run the risk of 'short formed' 158s operating in the event of any of the three car 158s being unavailable.

During the summer there would also have to be have a loco hauled set operating Mon-Sat on the Bristol-Weymouth line as there probably wouldn't be enough spare sets to strengthen current services on this line and stengthen services in Cornwall as well.

there are no plans to split the 3 cars up (yet anyway) and fgw are in talks with atw and dft about trying to kepp the atw 150's apparently the 3 months notice has not yet been given.

the lm 3 cars are arriving at some point although it is probably going to start towards end of next year in dribs and drabs as lm start to get the 172's

A rake of Mk 2s, in bright and shiny rail rail blue and white were at Barton Hill this AM.  Stock even bears the old M prefix before carriage number.  My driver tells me that they have been testing these with a pair of 67s in readiness for the Taunton-Cardiff adventures.  Too bad the blue clashes with the EWS livery.

Running today. 1500 Cardiff - Bristol TM via the slows.

Arriva are also testing their loco hauled set running as 1Z91

 This little lot  (http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s81/chris64ex4/Rail%20odds-sods/67002andMk2sBartonHill08-12-2008.jpg)you mean? :)

intercity returns!! thankyou for the pic :0)

I'm always too busy announcing imminent :o arrival at BRI to take photos at Barton Hill.  Well shot TSM.

67017 + 67028 allocated to the TAU - CDF locohauleds today for those of you who are interested in Skip Haulage. 67017 believed to be the Cardiff end of the set.
 :)

Now then, how about painting a pair of skips in nice large-logo blue to match the mark IIs...  ;)

i think the fgw carrage livery might even make the skips look good.... i think they are so under-rated!

Some very impressed passengers this morning (and again on the 1453 ex Bristol) my correspondent reports.

Speaking of new loco liveries, Arriva has turned out a Virgin Class 57 in a new paint job for its Holyhead-Cardiff 'express", see http://www.nwrail.org.uk/ (http://www.nwrail.org.uk/) and go to the noticeboard for December 9. There is also a reliveried Cargo-D Mk3 buffet in the coaching stock it was hauling.

Looking at this picture means that it was taken from a train somewhere in the region of Kingland Road. I hope if it was by you, then you are not doing what you do so well at the time. ;D Not unless what you do well is PAO. ;D

Didn't this lot go out on a test run last week, and only got to Yatton before FGW gave an instruction to their owners to return to their depot for URGENT repairs? The answer to that is Yes by the way!

Dodgy BSO i heard. Yesterdays runs also had some brake problems on 1400 from cardiff

And bringing the whole think back to the Western Region, I remember seeing the the Mk2 coaches at Worcester a few weeks ago looking rather tatty in old Avira livery, on a train that had just left Long Marston.

We do quite a lot of PAO nowadays. In fact I am getting most expert at it! What the normals make of crew holding mobile phones against the window is anyones guess. :D

Did hear there were some issues with the BSO 9494, I noticed when I worked past Barton Hill the other day the set was receiveing a quite extensive battering. Not entirely sure what the issues were to be honest.

Sorry guys, but I haven't come across "PAO" before and it isn't in the acronyms list yet. Could you elaborate as to what it is?

Cheers,
TLM

'PAO' = 'Passenger / As Ordered', ie traincrew travelling on their own or other operators services prior to or after working one of their own services. The crew travel in the passenger accomodation but are required to inform the crew in charge where they are sitting in order that their assistance may be called on should the need arise.

I would suspect you are right, When i first saw the set in formation it had the same livery BSO as the TSO's, now its a EWS Executive Livery BSO

The set also worked the 0728 Taunton - Bristol Parkway this morning, saw it at Taunton Station on platform 3 on the way to work :)

Hello, thetrout, and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum: thanks for posting!  ;)

Public adress system 'transmit' amplifier broken on the Blue and Grey BSO apparently.

... and, for the benefit of the curious / puzzled (like me!) - BSO means Brake Standard Open, a type of carriage.

Further details are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_Standard_Open and I've added it to our own list of acronyms.

I always thought of them as Brake Second Open. Standard being a relatively new term.

I travelled on these yesterday and didn't hear any gripes about the stock. Good to see staff from Exeter working them!

The 'West' Conductors are being trained up on the stock. There are no plans at this point in time for 'West' drivers to be trained / retrained on the locos. There are however a number of staff with previous knowledge of locomotives / hauled stock that could be utilized in the future should LHCS be a longer term thing.

well i dont think there is a shortage of older coaches and locos is there?

The amount of LHCS ive seen around the railway in places like Derby, Crewe, London I doubt very much that there is a shortage of LHCS.

however an insider did tell me that alot of it is incompatible with certain locos and other carriages of the same type (MKII etc).

but having said that of the LHCS i've seen there alot of it in GW Fag Packet livery. So why FGW don't use it to relieve overcrowding on busier routes such as the Portsmouth - Cardiff lines is beyond me.

I for one would quite like to see a FGW refurbished MK2 and a loco such as a 67 or 47 in FGW dynamic lines livery

were just going to get arguments from people saying station linger time station linger time..... i dont care i want a seat!!!!! and i want more people off the road!

Your theory is flawed. If it takes longer, why are they going to ditch the faster car?

i admit that in devon full on gridlock is not as bad as certain parts of the country however im sure you will agree that some morning getting into exeter or plymouth is not fun!, and if you are not lucky enough to have a carpark at work then well....

anyway my main point is the environment and the fact that not everyone can afford to use the car anymore

Purely rumour, though from a knowledgeable source.

FGW wish to keep, (beyond the May timetable changes),  the loco hauled set currently doing TAU-CDF duties.  67 haulage to be ditched in favour of additional FGW 57s, which will be 'pooled' with the current sleeper service traction.  Don't discount the possibility of another set and possible use of locos + 4 on summer Saturdays BRI- Devon

Have heard something that would make that all very possible.

Relex109 - you refer to not full scale gridlock. Can I suggest a trip along the A380 from Newton Abbot - Sainsburys Paignton - fun!

Try A38 Around the Liskeard Dobwalls area, Now thats fun!!! especially during the summer holiday season, a simple 20 Minute bus journey between Liskeard and Dobwalls took 1 Hour an 15 minutes. would have been quicker to walk, literually ;)

However once the Dobwalls Bypass is completed, much less of a problem... Well... Maybe... :P

work for citylink trust me i seen the gridlock first hand, but i have also been stuck in a car for three and a half hours from manchester city centre to astley (nr bolton) no that is GRIDLOCK! LOL

I have no actual knowledge of what is going on with potential loco hauled situation, but it occurs to me that Arriva probably have approx 3x four car rakes of MK2 aircon stock. Might this have something to do with it??

Daniel

Any likelihood of keeping or increasing 180s must surely be impossible now anyway, with all those ECML open access operators needing them being approved today?

Paul

Loco hauled services can be expensive to run, but are useful for increasing capacity and therefore customer satisfaction.
To loco haul 12 coaches costs more than 6, but not twice as much, therefore it would seem that the best use would be a 10/12 coach loco hauled train on whatever the busiest HST diagram is.
This would free an HST to displace a DMU from whatever the busiest DMU diagram is, thus freeing one or two DMUs and allowing lengthing of the most overcrowded services.
Therefore the introduction of one or two full length loco hauled trains would bring real benifits to many passengers, not just those on board.

Perhaps a long loco hauled set of coaches could be used on the Golden Hind (up and down) This service is frequently very overcrowded, and is meant to be especialy important.
Does anyone know if a 67 with coaches could keep to HST times? or would two 67s be required?

You'd need Mark III coaches, as the Mark II's are only certified for 100mph running

Aren't loco-hauled (as opposed to HST trailer) mk IIIs limited to 110 mph or am I barking up the wrong tree?

But surely the Golden Hind only has the chance to run at 125 between Reading and Padd anyway? I'd have thought that it would be acceleration away from station stops rather than top speed that would be key to keeping time on that kind of service.

Isn't there only a few places that the HST can do 125MPH? I'm pretty sure that Reading - London is 125, But between Taunton & Westbury it's only 90 - 100MPH

So would it really make much of a difference.

But a MK3 Loco Hauled would be better than MK2 because they can carry more passengers, but you'd need SDO because some platforms can only just accomodate 8 carriages... ;D

The Golden Hind is quite tightly timed so I don't think a loco hauled set would be suitable.

Unless they are restricted to 0 MPH after failing in the train wash at Barton Hill earlier in the day, resulting in...

16:13 Taunton to Cardiff Central due 18:17
This train will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 4 between Taunton and Bristol Temple Meads.This is due to an earlier train fault.

Would be interested to see the MPC figures for the set.

Interesting that there are at least 4 spare carriages (or coaches) spread around the Temple Meads area at the moment, including a purple Wessex one.

Is the Advenza 57 doing route learning?

the purple coach and its companion are apparently for sale for 25k each

Hey, Maybe we as a forum should by them and start an Open Access train company operating the following route:

Minehead
Watchet
Bishops Lydeard
Taunton
Castle Cary
Bruton
Frome
Westbury
Trowbridge
Melksham
Chippenham
Swindon
Reading
London Padd

The demand for the service is there, e.g. College students in Frome attending courses at Wiltshire College Chippenham, who can only get there by Silly O' Clock trains and having to Change. Melksham (Enough Said!) Trowbridge, Same Reason as Frome but competing with the bull that is First Group.

But we need someone to put a portfolio together and someone with a rather large cheque book ;D

Which makes the idea practically impossible... ... :(

If we can persuade EWS to give us 37 425 (large logo blue, mmm luverly) and paint those mk 2s in blue and grey, I'm in.

http://mikebyrne.fotopic.net/p45918837.html (http://mikebyrne.fotopic.net/p45918837.html)

I don't have any money though.  :'(

And this plan does rather assume that 425 isn't a wreck at the moment. I haven't checked... And we'd have to get rid of that silly Welsh name they stuck on it as well.

Why not get a pair of 73s and serve Waterloo via Reading, or even have a direct Melksham International Parkway - Gatwick link?

A loco to be hired to work the Sleeper ECS move to/from OOC/PAD thus releasing a 57 for the BRI LHCS....

DO they have any plans to have any of the LHCS refurbisehed to their new standards, as I thought theypledged to have all of their rolling stock refurbished over the course of the franchise?  I would have thought it would be good idea for first group to refurbish some coaching stock anyway,as it will always come in use on one of their franchises!

Thats an interesting idea.

Or maybe Minehead to London Waterloo Via Taunton, Exeter and Yeovil. You'd need to get the train on Platform 2 or 3 so it's in the right place to go down the Down Fast to Exeter. And then the platform closest to the ticket office so it could run via Exeter Central. The rest is usual SWT Calling patterns, or Non Stop...?

Another Route could be Exeter - Paddington Via Yeovil, you could be in London Paddington in 2 Hours from Yeovil which is a big difference compared to SWT to Waterloo in just over 3 Hours. Not sure of the demand on this one though... :(

Also on another note, Saw the hired loco hauled set this morning at Bristol Temple Meads, and I'm pleased to say that the Blue & Grey BSO is back ;D

Oh dear. I don't want to rain on this particular parade (not least because it would be fantastic to operate that service with 73s!) but they're limited to 60 mph off the juice, and don't have any electric train supply when running on diesel (pre-heat only). So it might be a bit sweaty/chilly (depending on the time of year) except for the WAT - RDG leg!

BTW I checked and 37 425 is still stored by EWS, so they haven't scrapped it yet. Phew!

not like me to throw a spanner in the works on a silly idea but adding exeter into that idea adds alot of time! i was going to say taunton straight to yeovil via that bit of trac that links pen mill to y j but that would involve alot of forwards and backwards

Yeah, which is why I suggested running via Exeter, Because at least the train keeps going in the same direction. and yes your right, it's a silly idea, but one that is ever so slightly possible... :P

If you went Taunton - Y J, you would have to platform on the Down Fast at Castle Cary, thus holding up FGW Services to Devon and Cornwall. Reverse their onto the YPM - YJ Line down to YJ and reverse again to get to London. I think FGW and SWT would frown heavily upon that. ;D

would be funny tho lol ''we are sorry to anounce that the 1710 fgw service for padington has been delayed by 30 mins this is due to the coffee shop express stealing its path! it has also stolen the traveling chef which is why you never see one!!

The loco that FGW are going to use for the Padd-OOC ECS moves is to be no other than Western Champion, and that isn't a joke! came from a very good source!

Good source claims no longer happening

Bleaurgh! Nasty Western region plastic diesel hydraulic rubbish. Gimme a bit of 47 thrash any day.  ;)
(there really out to be a "donning my tin helmet round about now" smiley...)

Getting out of "loco hauled" ... so I may need to split the thread, but you have availability issues through Reading. Now if you took a Marylebone to Oxford (via Bicester chord) service and extended it to Swindon ... and on along your route ... then you would provide for the Minhead flow, all the issues of the TransWilts, deal with the "West to Oxford" from which First withdrew in 2003 and now has a poor deal with Didcot changes.   Oh - and you may just have an operator or two who have the admin in place, and the servicing and all the rest which should cut the time to market and extra money needed a little.

Why not, after Reading, route via Kensington Olympia and terminate or onwards to Brighton and utilise the path(s) given up by XC?

I expect the path(s) given up by XC was/were snatched by SN immediately!

Sorry, forgot to add a tongue in cheek smiley to my original post!!

Here you are: :P

And welcome to the forum btw.

grahame is right. If a route were to be made, it may have to avoid Reading because it is already a heavily congested junction. The route that grahame also suggested is a good idea. Not sure how Chiltern will take to it though. However saying that. they don't seem to have a problem with WSMR Terminating at Oxford from Swindon may solve the problem. Then send customers for London to WSMR or Chiltern

Another route still using the transwilts line:

Exeter St Davids - Yeovil Junction - Sherborne - Gillingham (DSET) - Salisbury - Warminster - Westbury - Trowbridge - Melksham - Chippenham - Swindon

or

Exeter St Davids - Yeovil Junction - Yeovil Pen Mill - Castle Cary - Bruton - Frome - Westbury - Trowbridge - Melksham - Chippenham - Swindon

In theory we would need to utilise the TransWilts line as this is what there is demand for, as i'm sure, we all know ;D

I'm open to suggestions for routes :)

Might need to create a seperate thread for this though...?

okehampton-Exeter St Davids - Yeovil Junction - Yeovil Pen Mill - Castle Cary - Bruton - Frome - Westbury - Trowbridge - Melksham - Chippenham - Swindon

:-)

I must admit, I would never have thought of that route ;D

Where does the line for Okehampton split from the GWML? Only reason I ask is if you were to run a service via Yeovil Junction the train would need to arrive on the platform closest to the ticket office as this and the platform opposite are the only platforms that can get onto the Exeter Central - Yeovil Junction Line... Failing that, you could route via Taunton and Castle Cary, thus keeping grahame happy and providing a TransWilts service ;D

Such a route would never happen. The potential for delay is collosal.

At: Cowley Bridge, Exeter St Davids, Pinhoe, Honiton, Axminster, Yeovil, single line to Castle Cary, Frome, Westbury etc

Just run a few HST to Torbay via Melksham.

How about don't...

A simple 153 operated service is all the line needs.

Ok :'(

for once i was messing around... was anyone else being serious?

Perhaps, not, but my solution would work!

(and give Melksham a direct link to London and Torbay.)

And slow down already slow Torbay trains!

There's many a true word spoken in jest.   There *is* a TransWilts traffic / case from Yeovil and Frome up to Chippenham and Swindon (the Yeovil / Frome being arguable against Salisbury and Warminster origins, and depending on excellent connections from those palces at Westbury). 

Whether it's as part of a through service and a longer train, or more local, isn't wildly going to effect the revenue flow from the TransWilts segment.  I can tell you that there's a remarkably high proportion of through traffic (or has been historically) on certain trains, whereas others had a very high proportion locally - so there are two markets ... with some of the longer distant ones not being too route specific.  I can tell you that give a couple of years of reliable service and a timetable like the '08 draft, the 153 might be getting rather busy  ;D

To add another iron into the fire.  From Swindon, carry on to Oxford - sort out another market / traffic that has been seriously degraded in recent years.  But - please - many of these options would be longer term and the crying need is to deal with the Trowbridge to Swindon, the Chippenham to Salisbury, and the Melksham to anywhere traffic

yeovil could be better utilized, if the link between junction and pen mill was more subsantial and if there was a down cord from junction to weymouth...

with the improvements at axminster and increased frequency im sure you will see traffic increasing on this route... infact when i go to yeovil the only off putting thing for me reguarding getting the train is that it isnt anywhere near town !! grr is pen mill closer?

I agree with you. Although the current service is inadequete. I would see more demand from Frome. When I went to college, I lived in Frome. The course I wanted to do was only available at Chippenham at a 9:00 start. Guess What, The first bus for chippenham from Frome didn't get me there anywhere near on time.

However. If you had a service that ran from Frome direct to Chippenham. College students wanting to get to the Chippenham Campus can actually get there for the start of their course. Although some people may say do the course at Trowbridge, That's not always an option because some courses especially IT & Media/Music are only available at Chippenham.

If you had a route from say Taunton - Swindon. The demand for such a service would exist. also if you could offer cheaper season tickets than First Buses or FGW, then you would see those trains quickly fill up. A LHCS of 4 Carriages maybe hauled by a Class 37/47/57 or even a 67 would be most appropriate.

Just had word from a freind who works for FGW and have also read the same thing on the WNXX forum that FGW are to withdraw the paignton loco hauled set at the end of this week.

At the moment i have been told  by my freind that the other loco hauled diagram could continue to at least   2011

This story has also been mentioned before, on another board: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7531.msg75744#msg75744  :)

we were also meant to get some of the 150/1's this week from London Overground but I believe this has been put back by a few days so the LHCS may stay for another week or two.

Glad I travelled on it last week before I moved out of the area  ;D

I spent some of yesterday afternoon travelling on the Gospel Oak to Barking route and there wasn't a 172 to be seen, just 3 of the 150's plying the route.  That may have changed when the 15-minute frequencies started in the peak, but I couldn't wait that long.  It does show that the 150's are still very much needed though!

That route is the last to get 172s - sometime soon....

Not sure what you mean?  It's the first to get the 172's isn't it?  Followed by Chiltern and London Midland's orders.  Class 172's have in fact been working that route for several months, but design problems have led to them not replacing the 150's as quickly as hoped.  With none of them working off-peak yesterday it reinforced what 'vacman' said about further delays in the 150's transfer to FGW.

We should have all the LO units by early next year but two or three are due to come asap.

Definitely the first (and only LO) route to get 172s, but there have been reports elsewhere that 3 of LO's units have gone back to Derby a week or so ago. Pure speculation on my part, but after the recent rail mag articles saying that they don't need their exhausts completely rerouting, but only some minor mods are needed, perhaps LO are having theirs done while they still have the 150s to avoid hassle later?

Paul

Had an email from one of my freinds who is working for FGW and have also read this on WNXX that the  FGW Loco hauled trains are set to continue for at least a few more weeks/months til London Overground release  their class 150's.

Staff have been told that DBS are on a rolling 1 week contract now for provision of one of the loco hauled sets. So it could stop quite abruptly.

I believe the current estimate is 18-10-2010 for sufficient 150/1 to be avaiable to replace the LHCS. There are no LTP, STP or VSTP diagrams in that I know of for the West drivers to operate a unit vice LHCS at this point in time.


How long is a piece of string? ;)

According to a driver on WNXX the units are being picked up and driven down  this wednesday evening so anyone wanting a trip on the loco hauled  trains had better be quick

There are indeed 4 x 150/1 heading towards FGW-shire this week. Apparently one to TS for a C4, one to LA for refresh & two to replace the LHCS on the working that covers 2C67 - 2U20. I can't see the Paignton LHCS running much beyond this coming Friday if at all.

150120, 150123 and 150130  are the class 150's that are due to leave Willesdon  depot  tommorow evening and if everything goes to plan could enter service from this weekend. One of the other  2 class 150's still with London  is to be sent to have a new interior and i think the other 1 is  having some mechanical work done or something.

Friday is expected to be the last day for both loco hauled diagrams i have been told.

Hmm.  ::)

My understanding is that the first three of the 150s will arrive this week, but they will not be in service for seven days, while modifications are made to them. Two more will arrive next week, and a further one the week after that.

Only one of the loco hauled sets will go back: the other will stay.

Source: Kevin Gale, Operations Director, FGW, at the TravelWatch SouthWest meeting in Taunton last Saturday.

CfN.  ;)

The Paignton circuit becomes 150/2+153 from Monday.

153 replaced off Falmouth by Cl.150/2.

2x150/1 to enter traffic on Monday replacing 150/2's.

There is going to be a few happy people  if  1 of the loco hauled sets is taying in service for a few more weeks

Now, it was dark, but I'm sure I passed 2x150s in multiple on the B&H yesterday heading south-west near Athleney.

Was talking to a Driver at Dawlish today as a Loco haul went through - he said Friday too.

Today (Friday) is the last day of operation of the 2C67 - 2U20 Paignton run. The entire circuit becomes a 150/2 + 153 diagram from Monday 18th October as advised above. The Exeter driver diagrams have already been issued and the required drivers for the diagrams are already in place.

Fun while it lasted if you like that sort of thing. I've not been on one of these FGW locohauled trains in all honesty. And I doubt that I will.

probably been mentioned already but 3 more 150/1's are at SPM being prepared ready to start service next week,2 are due monday AM to replace 1 of the loco hauled services the other will be out later in week.

numbers are 120,123 and 130 i think.

Do I understand correctly that the 153s based on the Falmouth Branch have been replaced with 150s?

That'll do miracles for the branch punctuality and FGW's road transport costs.  :D

The 150 and 153 used on the branch will be used on the PGN loco hauled diagram. With 2 150/1s on Falmouth afaik

1700 Cardiff-Taunton yesterday was a 150 but not an FGW refurbished 150 but a different one!

I know on Saturdays they dont use the loco hauled service but is it still used during the week on the 0800 Paignton/1700 Taunton departures from Cardiff?

 The loco hauled set that worked these services was  withdrawn on friday. From tommorow it will be worked by a class 150/153

the service is currently run by 3x153's (used to be 2 single cars and 1 spare at Truro but is now 2x153 on 1 diagram and 1 on the other), and will apparently be replaced with 1x153 and 1x150 so technicly a slight decrease in capacity.

There was a loco yesterday on the 1955 from bristol to taunton

There should in fact be two locomotives, one at each end. This diagram will continue to be LHCS operated until Mid November as I understand things. The ex LOROL 150/1 should all be running by then.

Sorry, but I found that funny.  Thanks, TSM!  :-[

CfN. :P ;D

well... would it not have been cheaper to have 1 and do a run around  you can do this as both taunton and cardiff

Not sure whether there are the pathing opportunities for run rounds at Cardiff and/or Taunton. I'd assume that if there were FGW would've operated the CDF-TAU loco hauled with one loco from day one.

Probably not. The Exeter guards would have required training on items below solebar (and probably paid at train manager rate) or a shunter provided. Taunton is not the best place to run loco's round trains since the 1985 remodelling and I doubt the West end of Cardiff would actually cope with locomotives running round trains and bunging up both roads at the West end. And that's without the requirement to block roads for the safety of the person doing the uncoupling / coupling up. ATW do their run rounds at Canton and not Cardiff General station or the West end of the layout.

An AAR fitted DBSO? Yes much better idea but as the LHCS has run on the basis of 6 month contracts reviewed at each 6 month period there is no incentive to find an AAR fitted DBSO or train the West drivers to drive LHCS, both of which would have reduced the costs of operation over a two year period.

Thanks for that TSM. A lot more to it than just having a clear path for a run round.

Can you just clear up what AAR is? The forum Acronyms/Abbreviations page only gives up the answer: Association of American Railroads, which can't be right in this context, surely!?!

Correct. In this context 'AAR' refers to the type of multiple working found on class 67. Also the 59's & 66's and virtually any main line diesel locomotive running in America. You'd need to through wire the stock and have a 67 fitted with automatic fire suppression as well of course. I believe there are two DBSO's at Eastleigh requiring overhaul and fitting with AAR multi and one AAR fitted passenger DBSO lying overhauled but unused at York Road, Belfast. The latter has BR standard ETS but would need a bogie change and it's buffers moving back to the original positions.

The remaining loco hauled diagram finishes on 12th November. No point in doing anything different now.

However as I suspect there is going to be a continuing market for LHCS nationally for spot hire due to DMU shortages it makes sense for the rolling stock suppliers (DB-S / Cargo Rail / Riviera) to have solutions in place that reduce the cost in terms of fuel, track access & expensive locomotive assets tied up in providing loco hauled trains for short / medium term hire.

As far as the FGW operation is concerned we are indeed talking in the past tense, unless there is to be a continuing requirement to provide Locohauled trains in peak summer to provide capacity and to free up units to provide capacity elsewhere.

....and will there not also be some consideration given to spot hiring 67s to cover for the increasingly unreliable 57s used on the Night Riviera?

With a possible longer term solution, involving regular use of 67s?

The problem there being that FGW HSS drivers are not trained on class 67. As the sleepers is a franchise commitment rather than a short term fix any traction used on the service in normal use will be driven by FGW drivers.

The 67's would also find some of the stations a bit of a struggle at this time of year due to only four powered axles trying to transmit a higher rail HP. In terms of tractive effort 67's are relatively puny (31000lb starting effort) compared with the 57/6 (55000lb if I remember correctly). The 57/6's have fun starting away from St Erth on the 1C99 at this time of year.

I don't consider the FGW 57/6 are that unreliable, however you must bear in mind that one broken loco out of four is going to have more of an effect on the reliability figures than one broken loco out of a fleet of thirty. And the sheer logistics of recovering broken down loco hauled trains these days. I understand one recent failure was nothing more serious than a broken air pipe behind the drivers dashboard gauge panel.

Again, thanks for that detailed response, TSM.

I pondered on regular use of 67s as they are what First ScotRail use for the Highland portions of the Caledonian Sleeper. Obviously, as a layman I'm in no way versed in the comparative tractive efforts of a 57 versus a 67. But if FSR can use 67s over the difficult terrain to Fort William then surely using them on the Night Riviera would be a breeze, not withstanding the need to either train Exeter drivers on the class or hire in DB Schenker drivers.

I guess FGW will do the best they can with their 57s, but in the longer term are they (or the DfT) looking at other options?

I think you will find that by the time 1S25 has split at Edinburgh into 1Y11, etc at Edinburgh the 67's are hauling much smaller trailing loads than what the 57/6's haul round on 1A40 / 1C99. The 67's used by FSR have been modified in terms of the brake blocks, they now use cast iron tread brake shoes rather than composite ones after the latter were found to overheat and break up on the long descending gradients. These 67's are restricted to 90mph I believe.

The easiest option is for FGW to use a TPWS fitted 08 or 09 to operate the draw back moves to / from Paddington which reduces the daily requirement for 57/6 from three to two. The other loco then becomes a 'Thunderbird' at some strategic point or is available as maintainance cover at OOC.

If you really wanted an optimal solution to the problem of a small fleet of loco's in a large otherwise all HST fleet you convert the sleeping cars to HST format, add a reseated TGS, Buffet & TS and put a power car on each end. Nice soft job for powercars with N5 taped out. Sorted.

I was wondering if anybody could tell me, please, if the DMU stock to work the former Loco Hauled services starting and finishing at Taunton come from and return to Bristol or Exeter.  I recall the loco and stock going to Bishops Lydeard for servicing each but reverted to Barton Hill when the 67s took over.

And as if by magic 57604 (in use as a driver training loco this week at EX) comes in handy to drag 1A91 from Plymouth to Exeter....
 ;D

This was recently discussed elsewhere and someone said that a 57 had to be used for the moves from Old Oak Common to Paddington as it provides ETH.

N5?


EDIT: Oh, hang on. Do you mean Notch 5? Top bang on the power controller?

Equivalent in a car of flooring it?

How strange.   I dug out an old topic to pose a question and instead of recieving a reply, it seems to have revived a thread from the past relating to Class 57s.

There is normally another 57 in the consist and two drivers provided to bring the train in from OOC.