Great Western Coffee Shop

Many years ago there was a regular service from Brighton to Plymouth and vice versa. Until Brighton sheds closed, it was a steam-hauled affair operated with 'West Country' and 'Battle of Britain' class Bulleid pacifics. This service was truncated to finish at Exeter following the closure of the Southern route to Plymouth via Okehampton, but continued in that format for some years, usually hauled by a Class 33 after steam bowed out of the service in 1967.

I know a number of people who live in West Devon but need to travel to Brighton frequently, apart from Service personnel from the Royal Navy and Royal Marines who have to cross between Portsmouth and Plymouth. The services offered at present on the railway system are slow and meandering, involving at least one change and usually two or three. The route takes one often via Clapham Junction which of course makes the journey much longer than one routed along the south coast (Plymouth/Exeter/Salis bury/Southampton/Brighton) which is now almost impossible because British Rail so foolishly and short-sightedly singled the Southern main line west of Salisbury and demands for paths are so intensive now.

Perhaps with the instatement of a 'dynamic' passing loop at Axminster (due to happen soon???) it may just be possible to bring back this lamented service, though owing to SW Trains rather counter-productive deal with NR, it would presumably have to be operated by First or Virgin.

It would be very interesting to hear the views of other FGWCS users.

Hi, Brunel-Scott ... and welcome to the forum

I recall travelling all the way from Brighton to Exeter on this service in the old "Crompton" - class 33 diesel - days. But in modern rail planning, you need to learn from history and the plan for the future, so just because it was wonderful the doesn't mean it's right now.  In fact, you're pushing rather against the tide of things as the Portsmouth - Penzance service which provided some of the same direct journeys such as Southampton to Exeter was only withdrawn quite recently under the current FGW franchise.

However ... there were many things very wrong with the new (now current) FGW franchise - most (but not all) definite omissions have now been put right, the most notable exception being the TransWilts, and the new man (if we can still call him that after a year!) has worked some excellent changes in the right direction.

There probably is a strong case for a service from Brighton that goes beyond Southampton - indeed, that is acknowledged in the current francise / operation with the Brighton to Great Malvern service.  Whether that's best as a through service that runs just once or twice a day, or as a  connecting service that runs much more frequently, is rather open to discussion.  Perhaps the best of both worlds can be gained by running long distance through trains which make excellent connections - but that relies on a reliable infrastucture so that you don't end up with a system where delays percollate all across the UK.  Who knows - one of those long distance services could even be Dover to Plymouth - via Ashord Interational, Hasings, Eastbourne, Brighton, Chichester, Southampton, Salisbury, (Westbury, Taunton or Axminster?), Exeter (Tavistock or Newton Abbot?), Plymouth.  But I don't see it happening in this decade, frankly.

It seems to me that the number of through journeys will continue to be cut, because unlike other countries we are completely incapable of achieving European levels of reliability, so we have to simplify the system to make it more "robust", regardless of the impact on passengers.

In recent years we have lost through services from Penzance to West Wales, Bristol to Manchester via Hereford, Penzance to Portsmouth, Plymouth to Glasgow via Preston, Bristol to Oxford, Swindon to Southampton, and no doubt a few more I've forgotten or didn't know about. Now I don't mind changing trains personally (apart from the fact that it doubles the chance of being delayed), but it's a well known fact that most rail users have a strong preference for through trains, especially older and disabled people.

I believe the SWT train services west of Exeter are going soon. I'm also expecting that before too long we'll lose Bristol to Brighton and Bristol to Waterloo, because they are detrimental to First's total domination of public transport throughout the Southwest.

For operational reasons, the logical progression would be to make all services terminate at a handful of "hubs", ie Plymouth, Exeter St Davids, Bristol Temple Meads, etc. This could help fulfil two government objectives, one being to achieve a new so called "record level of punctuality" to impress those who don't travel by train; the other being to further suppress demand, which in my opinion, reading between the lines of their 30 5 year plan, is the government's only long term plan for the railways.

(On changing trains)


Hmm...


How do you work that out, then?

I can see what Bemmy means.

If your complete journey consists of one train and it's delayed, that equals one chance of a delay.

If your complete journey consists of two trains, with one change, then there are two chances of one or the other trains being delayed. Two times one equals a doubling of the chance.

Hope this helps, TerminalJunkie.

Our work makes thousands of journeys between Cornwall and the south coast each year but no one opts to use the train as there is no reliable service. It has got to be a through service to be of any use and it is not going to happen with the current franchise set up. There are also numerous retired people with family on the south coast who I am sure drive.

The recently abandoned Penzance to Portsmouth service was useful but painfully slow and now we have nothing. Even from Cornwall traveling to Weymouth or East Devon it is better to get the X53 bus from Exeter rather than the tortuous train journey.

Another advantage of getting the bus is the chance to thaw out one's extremities after two hours on a hard refurbished mk 3 seat by walking from St.Davids to the bus station.

Exactly what I meant Phil, and probably explained better than I would have done. I'm sure that the chance isn't exactly double, but I'm only able to make crude calculations!

Some very interesting responses - thanks everyone. It rather looks on the balance of argument that 'Open Access' is preferable to franchise domination of certain areas.

I've seen trains in Brighton station of four different franchises at one time. Perhaps some kind soul from First would explain what issue they have with SWT operating beyond Exeter (apart from paths - or is that the main issue?).

It would be a vote-winner in this increasingly environmentally conscious age (note: young people especially interested) for the Government to invest in increasing rail capacity rather than supressing demand - but I have read that this appears to be the government's policy from other sources. Is this simply a daft government policy, or just a daft government (....draw your own conclusions please!!!)

A very interesting sub-thread developed discussing whether a though service or excellent (and more frequent) connections provide the best options.  It's far, far wider in interest than a single route so I have sun it off to:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3593.0

I think the main issues are that there isn't enough stock around, and that the DfT sees better use of stock being made by providing other services rather than two running over the same line a short while away from each other.   I don't think that First have much of an issue with SWT going further west - I may be wrong though, as I would imagine that SWT do rather nicely out of it, financially, through the ORCATs system.

The amount of stock wouldn't be an issue if the through services were part of an integrated pattern.

For example, if the SWT Bristol - Waterloo trains could fit into the standard pattern of FGW services between Bristol and Westbury, this could be balanced by the Bristol - Brighton train fitting into the SWT standard pattern between Fratton and Brighton, so that neither company needs extra stock to provide these services outside its core area. I appreciate this isn't easy to timetable, but the Bristol to Waterloo trains already spend a lot of time waiting around (takes 3hrs now compared to 2 1/2 a few years back).

The Penzance to West Wales service used to be incredibly slow, but when I took it there were a lot of people using it for through journeys from Devon and Cornwall to Wales even though a much faster option was available by changing (in theory).

The time increase is probably due to the fact the original service ran from Milford Haven starting at something like 4.30 in the morning by Wales and West. (It was always packed, you had to book a month in advance) There was no pick-up after Warminster, only set downs for airport connections at Basingstoke and Clapham, SWT didn't allow the competition, but what it did allow was full speed working between these points. I'm sure there must have been a dedicated mini fleet running these services, and it would interesting to know what the train code was as they were always given priority as they were onward connection dependant for virtually all passengers.

Nowadays the service starts at BTM, and connects with a standard onwards SWT service from Salisbury with all the stops that entails.  :'(

Yeah it's a shadow of its former self really, although the trains are nicer. I rarely go from Bristol to London via Salisbury nowadays, but it can be useful if going to south London to get an early connecting service and save a fortune on FGW fares.

speaking of brighton.. its rather strange how with the exception of the fgw to portsmouth

its more or less a commuter/south east only access now


anyone wanting to get from the north or the midlands to brighton have to change in london

mind you thinking of it, places like canterbury are also london only (when trying to get from another region)

I think that Southern to a lot of West-heading services from Brighton, to the extent that the 2 or 3 FGW trains that go beyond Southampton don't take that main flow - the 'real' service is an hourly one which with a change gives an hourly connection west as far as Salisbury / Bristol / Cardiff.   

I'm tempted to suggest that good hourly connections are going to be more effective in fulfilling a market need than 1 or 2 trains a day, and can release a unit off that 1 or 2 a day service to improve service elsewhere; this is not unique in that I can find other places where a regular service is mirrored by a very occasional one and usage shows it's the regular train that has all the people on it.

 yes but what i meant was with the exception of the portsmouth trains and the cardiff one which only runs 2 or 3 times a day, there isnt that connection to the midlands or the north

you have to inconveninatly (underground and all) , change in london

The elephant in the room that nobody mentions is electrification or lack of it.

Thus all the services proposed from the West to Brighton and perhaps further East have to be DMUs because the juice runs out at Southampton. Not quite as stupid as the as the Basingstoke Norwich service which had to be 170s for lack of conductor rail for about a mile  around Kew.

The only way to get such services is to press for basically every line South of the FGW
Berks and Hants line to be electrified probably third rail.

Thus Ashford International to Exeter would be a possiblity. Once the GWML is electrified to Bristol then Salisbury Bristol should be 25KV, to give Brighton Bristol all electric with dual voltage units. Dual voltage with modern electronics is a doddle look at the 350/450 and the Southern Electrostars? Which do Croydon Watford.

As others have said until there are new spare DMUs such services are a bit of pipedream, and the likelihood of their being spare units even with new build which are basically to relieve existing overcrowding is unlikely expecialy if the 14Xs are withdrawn or more likely become so unreliable nobody will let them out of the depot.

The availability of dual voltage electric rolling stock will increase markedly as Thameslink proceeds towards its final condition, with well over 1000 brand new vehicles in 8 or 12 car fixed formation. So being an optimist, the infill electrification will be needed so as to avoid units like 319s being scrapped 10-15 years early. Another key change is that Thameslink KO2 doesn't really introduce new routes, it absorbs existing Southern, Southeastern, and FCC/GN routes into Thameslink, and will displace hundreds of 'mid-life' units from their existing electrified routes.

So I think Basingstoke - Salisbury - Exeter and Salisbury - Southampton/Eastleigh will be obvious solutions to soak up rolling stock, AC or Dc doesn't really matter as much of the stock can be made dual voltage even if not already.  The SWT 158s and 159s, and then the SN Turbostars should be snapped up elsewhere, such as Norwich - Liverpool, especially if run as 6 or 9 car sets like Waterloo Salisbury etc...

Paul

If you are going directly North, I'd have thought the Thameslink route, with a change at St Pancras International was far better than the underground, especially for the leisure traveller away from the peaks.  Without much luggage I'd be tempted to walk to Euston as well...

Paul

 

true

but its a case of putting up with an extra 15 min on a tube from victoria, or an extra 45 on a painfully slow stopping everywhere fcc service

Southern should switch to a fast Milton Keynes to Brighton service, instead of the slow Croydon - Milton service they have now.

To absorb any 3rd rail units, electrify: Uckfield - Lewes, Ore - Ashford, the West of England main line, Exeter to Barnstaple and Oakhampton, and the North Downs line.

I thought the only 3rd Rail electrification allowed now is for in-fill schemes, which rules out several of those above? If it didn't Basingstoke to Reading would be another good candidate.

Yes, but if the WOEML is to be electrified, it would be mad to use overhead cables, as there would be dual electrification from Woking to Waterloo! I, therefore, would count it as infill. This would make 3rd rail a better method for the Exmouth - Exeter - Barnstaple/Oakhampton line.

All the others are infill.