Great Western Coffee Shop

Hi, when I am in coach A I can hear the guard give 2 to the driver for RA and then the driver gives 2 back.  I then hear the guard give another 2 back to the driver.  Why does the guard give another 2 back to the driver?  On all other trains I have been on it's just 2 to the driver and 2 back to the guard.

FGW are the only ones to do it for "added safety"

yeh its not just hst's, i was on a pacer and they did it too i wasnt sure why but i guess as already stated its just to be safe

First Scotrail do this - I was travelling around Scotland last week.

PS: I enjoyed the trip - few un-air-conditioned trains!!! Even the Far North lines have 158s!

Perhaps it is new First policy - I should make a trip on FCC (on the other hand....).

Only on HSTs are there 6 buzzes

Could it be on HST's
Guard to Driver 2 buzzes doors closed,

Driver to Guard 2 buzzes confirmation,

Guard to Driver 2 buzzes RA

just watched that footage from the pacer i was incorrect what i thought was the first two buzzes was actually the bus doors on the pacer shutting

The extra two buzzes are from the Train Manager to the driver to confirm departure. It only happens on HST's as far as I know (but from the comments on here it may be spreading!) and it's due to the Driver<>Guard communication equipment being old and occasionally giving out spurious buzzer sounds to the driver. Obviously having two sets of 'right-away' buzzes from the TM virtually eliminates the chance of the driver receiving 'two' spuriously and departing in error. The equipment and cabling is being renewed on all trains progressively, but I expect the extra 'buzz' will remain in force as it has become common practice now.

... and, just as an aside, I've often noticed that there seems to be a tradition, on local units at Bedminster approaching BTM, that the departure signal from the guard is six short buzzes, acknowledged by six short buzzes from the driver.

There doesn't seem to be a reason for it - indeed, I once overheard a regular guard tell a trainee, who asked "Why?" - "We just do!"

 ;)

Giving 6 (one after another),  is the signal to draw forward. This is used, for example at Wos Foregate St on down trains, when dispatch staff give the 'tip' but the conductor can't actually see the starting signal.  (Giving 2 against a red is a no no).  You will also see this practice at stations where there is a signal at red some way off in the distance, for example on the up side at Ashchurch.

Common usage  by ex Wessex unit crews in the Glos/Brizzle areas, but recently, I was in the back cab of a 158 with a  (route refreshing) Train Manager who was surprised by the practice, so perhaps it is a 'Wessex' thing.   I haven't been around long enough to know. :-\

I understood the 6 was when the starting signal was showing amber and the guard had seen it, as the driver would only be able to pull forward to the next signal which would obviously be red. It quite frequently happens at BTM when it gets a bit busy. I^m not sure if  it^s done at Trowbridge on the Bath side when trains head for Melksham as the start signal at the end of the platform shows amber when Bradford junction is set for Melksham. It would seem a little inconsistent if not as I^m sure I remember 6 being given there when we^ve followed late runners and it is also amber when it shows only the next section clear when set for Bradford.

Here's a full set of buzzer/bell codes for those that are interested. Those that have heard 6 might have misheard 3-2-1 or 3-3 as 6 should only be given when a train is departing a platform to draw up to a signal that is red (or possible red that the Guard can't see). The dash means that there is a slight pause between the buzzes.

1           = Stop
1-2        = Close Doors
2           = Ready to depart (Right away)
2-2        = Do not open doors
3           = Set back
3-1        = Lock central door locking
3-2        = Guard giving permission for driver to unlock doors
3-2-1     = Testing doors
3-3        = Guard to contact driver (or vice-versa)
3-3-1     = Release central door locking
4           = Slow down
4-4        = Cab to cab contact for HST's
6           = Draw forward
9           = Police required

the 3-2-1 code is the only one that won't be repeated back by the driver.

If I recall correctly on the SE Trains in North Kent the Train Manager give 2 bells to tell the Drive to close the doors the TM's door at this stage has his over ride key operated the drives responds back with 2 bells the TM once satisfied the train is ready to depart removes the over ride the door closes and another 2 bell exchange happens.  This second set of bell does not seem to happen at stations with platform dispatch

Next time I travel out that way, which quite often, I'll pay more attention and turn my MP3 player off

The added buzzes on the HST's are down to an incident a few years back (in Cornwall) where a driver left a station without getting "2 from the guard", the driver left and doors were still open etc, the guard claimed that he never gave 2 and the driver claimed that he had 2 so they insisted that the guard always gives 2 a second time. as for driver operated doors, the guard will give 1-2 to the driver to shut the doors then 2 to go.

A guard would give 2 for a yellow signal as his train would still have the road.  Giving 2 against a red is not a good career move, hence the practice of 6 when a signal can't be seen clearly or when there is a red signal, not necessarily at the end of the platform, but reasonably close.  Drivers someties give 2 back to the 6 if the signal has cleared in the meantime.

So can you give 2 at Dawlish Warren if the signal at the end of the loop is red for another train to pass on the up main?

You won't dispatch at Dawlish Warren until the signal clears.

In 1999/2000 I used the train every weekday from Teignmouth to Exeter and many times we ran up to the signal from the station and waited there to let the Golden Hind pass if it was running late.  In late 2000 or early 2001 though we started waiting in the platform for the signal to clear so was there a change of policy at some time?

Think its just better as it allows late comers to make the train if late and theres no point sitting at a red when you will only get a yellow - so don't loose any time!

A guard would give 2 for a yellow signal as his train would still have the road.  Giving 2 against a red is not a good career move, hence the practice of 6 when a signal can't be seen clearly or when there is a red signal, not necessarily at the end of the platform, but reasonably close.  Drivers someties give 2 back to the 6 if the signal has cleared in the meantime.
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Giving two against a red is known as a Ding and Ding and Away incident. There have been several accidents due to it, one at Lewes a few years back comes to mind. There are probably many more unreported incidents.  So long as the driver doesn't hit the next track circuit and no station staff witness the incident nothing happened.

It's why many long long or curved platforms have "off" indicators so that the station staff or guard can confirm platform starter is off. Also at places like platform 4 Reading there are SPAD repeaters after the signal which illuminate if the driver SPADs the main signal.

The evelution of  "Off"  indicators is interesting when first installed at some stations they used to show "On" or "Off" both in white, this proved to be confusing when glanced at quickly, so they  are now only illuminated when the signal is actually "Off" as at Paddington.

So would you be allowed to give 2 at Dawlish Warren to run up to the signal or would you have to give 6 as the signal is too close to the platform?

I would say 6 if the signal is close to, but not actually on the platform.  (I don't work in this area) but as other far more experienced railway pros have pointed out, there is little point in sitting at a red signal just off the platform.  Route knowledge/current practice, plays a big part in deciding just what happens at individual locations though.  Our drivers are officially instructed to report any 'double ding and away' incidents.

A very interesting question and shows that railway signalling and operational rules have to be very carefully and precisely written to cater for situations such as this. Such information used to be conveyed in the Sectional Appendices and signal box instructions which gave specific interpretations of the general rules and regulations for specific locations.  Thus there should be a precise instruction in the relevant Sectional Appendix for the line, stating whether a guard/driver of a train stopping at Dawlish Warren should remain in the platform or draw up to the loop exit signal if it is at red and what bell code the guard should give and what he driver should reply. it should then be part of the route knowledge of the train crew.

I spent my first two years on the railway helping proof read changes to the Appendicies and signal box instructions which was fascinating and has given me my interest in the ergonomics and  psychology of railway operation. e.g. One of the unwritten rules of railway operation particularly as regard signalling is that it should always "fail safe". One of the other jobs my section did was to investigate "wrong side failures" where something had failed in an unsafe way, for example a signal not returning to danger or a track circuit showing clear when a train was occupying a section. A common fault with the 158s when they first came out they kept appearing and disappearing from panels.  

 

Firstly welcome to the entertaining area of the Coffee Shop, which I think has to be the best resource of everything railway related in the FGW area, if not beyond, including some cracking contributers with it.

A simple question from a regular and interested user of the railway has now prompted some very interested responses from the professionals and other regulars who have clearly got fed up with reading the Metro and have actually spoken to the people who take us to work and back every day.  :)

Thanks everyone

It happened in Paddington once as well. After the brake test the guard noticed a falling of the brake pressure, this was due to the driver placing the brake controller into a holding position to allow him to release the parking brake. The guard then from the rear cab cab gave the driver the three three on the buzzer to enquire why and the driver after two "peeps" of the first three gave his "two peeps" back and commenced to leave the station.
Should read

Do not open dooors until you've spoken to the driver/guard


amber! don't you mean yellow? shame on you! ;D

No is the simple answer, the signal on the up is classed as a starter signal, so its 6 to draw up to a red. As stated by another poster, giving two to a red is a quick way to shorten your railway career... :-[

After some further observation of this practice at Bedminster, I'm going to suggest a more practical reason for it (not just, "Because we do!")  ;D

I'm now almost convinced that a 6 signal to 'draw forward' is actually being given, because the conductor can see the signal gantries just before the Bath Bridge (approaching BTM) and therefore knows (as does the driver) that we can only 'draw forward' that far.  However, by the time we reach that signal, it's usually changed as a path has been cleared for us - so we don't actually stop, we just arrive at BTM rather slowly?!

However, as a mere passenger here, I'm ready to be told that this is after all some sort of masonic ritual by railway staff at Bedminster!

Chris  ;)

You can roll down your trouser leg Chris. ;D

The signal(s) on the gantry are not classified as a starter(s).  Per local practice, if red at time of dispatch, the guard will give 6 to draw forward. 

(Of course, there is a slight delay once the guard has, after closing doors, performed safety checks,  re-checked the signal and entered the train/closed local door.  Accordingly, it may well be that the signal clears within this time.  However, once inside, the guard can no longer see the signal, so 6 it is, if signal is red at last sight).

As mentioned before, some drivers will give a 2 back to the guard's 6 if signal has subsequently cleared.

Can anyone explain why - at least on my HST journeys between the Cotswolds and Oxford, the traditional two beeps from the guard, followed by two from the driver, then two more from the guard to start the train seems, in the past couple of weeks, to have become just two pairs of beeps?

As far as I am aware this is now the policy.

Guard says fine to go, and then driver acknowledges.

The six beeps ([guard] "ding ding", [driver] "ding ding", [guard] "ding ding") was peculiar to FGW high-speed services as far as I'm aware. It certainly isn't the case on the West DMU fleet and I don't think it was used by any other TOC. Since time immemorial the rightaway (RA) signal on stock equipped with a bell or buzzer has been simply "two" from guard to driver, who acknowledges with another two, so in that respect the "new" way is actually the traditional one. It was suggested to me by someone on the inside that FGW adopted the additional repetition of the RA signal by the guard following a couple of incidents in which drivers had started trains without permission, as an additional safeguard. Not sure how credible my source is on that one though!

Not sure when the change occurred as I was sitting in coach A of a Carmarthen service a few weeks ago when I was back in the UK and didn't notice that anything had changed.

Incidentally, guards still all carry green flags (albeit mostly without sticks these days) for use in the event of a buzzer failure.

As a further aside, there is a straight six-beeps signal meaning "draw up" (usually referring to starting the train but only pulling up to a signal that's still at danger) although I don't know whether that is still used.

Just to concur with Blakey's post and add that there were wiring problems with the Driver<>Guard system which sometimes led to spurious beeps being heard by the driver, which led to at least one incident with a train leaving with doors open.  The extra two from the Guard was a solution to ensure that it wouldn't happen again.  Following the re-wiring of the fleet and installation of more modern handsets it's felt that this extra safeguard is no longer necessary, so it's back to the industry standard 2 and 2.

 Change being sold to staff as bringing HSS into line with West and LTV

Wasn't long ago I was on a set with odd beeps on the buzzer to be heard in the TGS. Cue emergency brake application blocking station approach to Paddington; good job it was 6am. Problem persisted throughout journey however beeps were ignored.

The change was made because of a couple of incidents where trains moved off with doors open as a result of misunderstanding buzzer codes. The code for the driver/guard asking to talk to each other is 3-3. So the guard gives 3-3, but the driver after the first 2 thinks its the right away and buzzes two back (whilst the guard is in the middle of his 3-3), and then hears the last 2 of the 3-3 and thinks that the guard is just acknowledging his 2, and off he goes.

So, with the cables much improved, time to go back to the standard method of 2 from the guard, 2 from the driver.

 ;D NXEA use 2-2-2 on hauled stock to avoid spurious beeps being accepted as guard - driver in error !

This is still in use for places like Dawlish Warren and departing Crediton towards Exeter.

And indeed anywhere there's a signal at danger far enough from the end of the platform for it to be deemed worthwhile drawing up to.

We had a similar discussion (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3350.0) about buzzer codes, on HSTs in particular, some time ago: purely for completeness and continuity, I'm rather inclined to merge these topics - provided nobody objects?

Chris.



Edit note: Topics now merged. Chris.

A random thought popped into my head earlier on when I was in the gym with nothing better to think about... Is use of the buzzer recorded by the "OTMR" on-board data recorders where fitted?

Oh, and no objections to merging from me!

Yes it is.

I think it depends on the type of train.  I'm pretty sure on a Turbo it isn't.

On the 14x & 15x it records the sounding of the buzzer (energisation of the buzzer train line). It does not record where on the train the buzzer train line circuit was energised.

Was held at Dawlish Warren today for a passing HST - as soon as it had passed Guard gave 6 and the Driver replied 6.

Rather than just drawing forward we carried on as the signal must have cleared.