Great Western Coffee Shop

Roger Ford in September's Modern Railways has tried to make sense of the DfT boast of 1300 new carriages by ????

From his table it appears that FGW is due for 52 vehicles for the Bristol area.

However, these do not appear to be "new" but cascaded 150s (2/3 car) from London Overground and/or London Midland as a result of them receiving new class 172 (super 170s) sometime after the Q4 of 2009 if Overground ones,  or after July 2010 if London Midland ones are cascaded.

So two more years of overcrowded trains in the West.

There is no other mention of other "new" stock for FGW, particulary not for TV services which were mentioned previously. So no respite for TV overcrowding.

A couple of related links.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1583.msg10354#msg10354

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3258.msg25163#msg25163

TV services will have I suspect to wait for Crossrail as this will release quite a few 165/6 although by 2017 the Units will be about 2/3 through their expected life and the whole shape of the FGW franchise will have to change as a result of Crossrail so folks we will have to continue with the ovens that are 166's in the summer and draft boxs that are 165's in the winter for quite a while yet

FGW always seem to be copped out by all the second hand trains. Logically, could FGW actually purchase brand new DMU trains? I'm unsure of the process...

I think the subject should be changed to:  FGW "MAY" get "NEW" stock for Bristol area  ;)

No, the government have to approve it.

we are getting 150001 and 002 in december from LM,and over the course of 2009 the rest of the hybrid 3 cars start arriving gradually

it always was going to be cascaded stock for FGW..... and in any case whats wrong with a 150 much better than the newer stuff

Swlines, could you identify the legislation / contract which prevents FGW (or their parent company) from buying trains? (as distinct from leasing new trains).

Thanks

I can't identify it as it's mainly built into the franchise contracts which are 'commercially sensitive'. Likewise, the cost of new trains would be too limiting for FGW to do it upon their own accord (^750,000 to ^1 million per CARRIAGE).

The cost of carriages should be seen in the context of the TOC's investment (e.g. the recent ^29m recovery plan). It's presumably possible for the parent company to own the stock.

As far as the franchise contracts are concerned, I had heard about the need for leases to be underwritten by DfT, but for the DfT to be restricting the right of a TOC to buy stock outright would seem to be plain DafT when it's recently been complaining about the ROSCOs.  :-[

It is impossible to have any TOC make a reasonable investment now.

The government (hello if you're reading this Brown, Winsor) are stupid prats who are just desperate for stupid amounts of cash in return for commercial operators running the railways on their behalf, when they basically specify timetables, rolling stock and regulate most of the fares.

Don't forget that FGW own several HST vehicles and 3 x class 143 already.

The HSTs are owned by First Group as opposed to First Great Western, as a strategic investment AFAIK. The 143s are a bit cheap so the DfT/SRA needn't get involved on that one.

I'd love FGW to get taken off the franchise, simply to see the chaos that follows afterwards!

IIRC, the 143's were owned by Nat/Ex and were sold on as part of the franchise. They had been bought from BR by one of the Welsh Councils some years ago.

Thanks for all the replies.

To sum up FGW may get some 150s sometime presumably for Bristol and the West.

Thames Valley will have to suffer until Crossrail.

What a way to run a railway!

dont quote me on this but more that one person has said to me that 143's for the exeter area are a possibility

i believe could be as early as october but definatly once they are refurbed is what i have heard

FGW have been so impressed with Exeter depot for improving the reliability of the 142's (which i'm led to believe are now the most reliable units in the FGW fleet) that they want Exeter to do the same to the 143's, the reason the 142's have become so reliable is because they all go back to the same depot each evening, the same as SWT's 159's so that there's no "passing the buck" with repairs, i.e. the common reply to a fault in a repair book "for attention of home depot".

Thanks for your post on that, vacman!

That is certainly what Andrew Griffiths was saying, at the FOSBR meeting I attended a few weeks ago: he was full of praise for Exeter depot staff, in achieving a rate of 3,000 mile per casualty for the 142s.

Well done, chaps!  ;)

More like 6,500!!

Well, that's even better, then, Liam!

3,000 was the figure Andrew Griffiths quoted to me - and Ollie, who was also at that meeting - on 12 July 2008: see http://www.iworkforfgw.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=118

 ;)

Rumour in the north of the area is that we are to get several 150/1 (non front gangwayed ) units.  Anyone travelling frequently in the Brizzle area will already have experienced these as we currently have 2 or 3 in service, (green and blue paint job with a slam crew door).

Although the current units have 3+2 seating, a refurb could render the 'new' stock similar to existing 150/2s.  From a guard's point of view, they have nice big cabs, but can only be worked from cab ends, which would be a PIA with 3 car configuration on busy trains.

150001&2 coming december no gangway door but power crew doors,approx 10 more hybrid 3 cars 2009-2010.
apparently once all sets recieved will have refresh to fgw standard and getting intermediate door controls and remote supply amongst other stuff.

 :) Won't be that different from the 150/2s then. And....I for one love that nice big cab.

fGW have 2 150/1s, 150121 & 150127.

Been informed that both, plus any other we recieve from London Midland and LORL (formerly Silverlink), are to be 'refreshed' soon, possibly in-house to a simlar standard to the fGW 150/2s.

The Class 143s, once refreshed, are going to be allocated to Exeter depot once the short-term lease 142s are returned, so that the 'pacer' fleet has a dedicated home depot (proved by the excellent work they have done on the 142 fleet, which are no reaching 6,500 MPC! - better than ANY od the DMU classes in the Wessex Trains era.). In turn, SPM will be allocated half of Exters 150s to lighten their already high workload.

The eventual plan is to use the 150/1s on the Bristol local services etc, whilst keeping the 142/143s in Devon.

So Roger Ford may be right FGW may get some 150s from Overground or London Midland. However, it does seem a bit disingenuous of the DfT to claim these are part of the 1300 "new" carriages, even if they are refurbished.

It's good to see Exeter improving the performance of the 142s, but even 6500 miles is still very low compared with a modern electric units which are getting 40K to 50K. However it does re-enforce the view that dedicated depots for single classes of units is way to improve performance.

One of the things that  makes the current franchise set up so stupid is that Bletchley depot which dealt with Silverlinks 321s and was consistently awared silver spanners, was closed when whoever (I really can't be bother to work out which franchise runs which trains) took over moved their maintenance away from Bletchley.

When National Express take over First and First take over Arriva and Arriva take over National Express franchises what's the betting  Exeter depot will be closed?

I thought the 150/1's had intermediate door controls? Or am I thinking of the ex Arriva 150's?
As for the 143's coming to Exeter(my depot), i'm glad the fitters are doing such a good job, put from a train crew and passenger point of view, it's bad news if you are in this area, as the pacers are the least comfortable for passengers, and the worst units to work(for traincrew). Not that we see much else down here these days anyway!

150/1's dont only ex wessex and atw have it,apparently on refresh it is to be fitted

Aspley Annie and Silverlink Sally. The former though, is a pile of Charlie Romeo Alpha Papa.  I had heard that there was another hiding out at Landore, but that was only a rumour. ???

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3235/13082008ct1.jpg)

 ;D Saw the 'MAX SPEED 75MPH' adaptation the first day she arrived at SPM, along with some rather worrying Burning smells in one of the saloons which turned out to be an underfloor heater that had been switched on for the first time in several years so it seemed!!

It would appear that somebody has got their wires crossed somewhere, as there is definitely not anything hiding in Landore!!

The remaining LORL (Silverlink) 150/1s are the following:

150120  LO  WN      52120         57120    'Gospel Oak - Barking 2000'
150123  LO  WN      52123         57123    'Willesden TMD'
150128  LO  WN      52128         57128    'Bedford-Bamberg 30'
150129  LO  WN      52129         57129    'Marston Vale'
150130  LO  WN      52130         57130    'Bedford - Bletchley 150'
150131  LO  WN      52131         57131    'LESLIE CRABBE'

As far as i know, we are to receive all of them when LORL get their new-build Class 172s later this year.

As 'smithy' says the 150/1 indeed to not have intermediate door controls, as where they currently operate this has never been a requirement due to the guards rarely leaving their 'back cabs'. I don't blame them either  :-\ :o

sprog

no offence intended but i would check your info as i am sure in wessex days the mpc was far better than now,although saying that things do appear to be finally improving.one thing i would say though is the mpc figure for the 150 fleet has nose dived over the past 12 months the only explanation is since the majority of the work is now done on spm and not exeter.


on another note i see you work at spm? as train crew i find it really annoying when defects that are booked either get next exam attention or team leader informed put in the book,it is things like this that cause failiures as crew see this and then think if the depot cannot be bothered then neither can we and fail the train.there has been times when it has turned out to be something stupid causing the fault that took a couple of minutes to sort out by station or mobile fitters yet on depot nothing has been done.
are you able to give us an insight in to what happens on depot and why seemingly simple repairs are constantly left?

Where do i start!?

Materials, Time, Man power, Facilities

I have not got time to give a comprehensive reply to the rest of your post right now 'smithy', but i will in due course.

Wrong....

The MPC under Wessex was always poor. I don't think any class of unit ever achieved over 4500mpc consistently for any measurable period of time. Most of this was down to issues at Canton. Exeter only ever did FPX, 'A' exams and reblocking on 15x except 153's. All other major exams were undertaken at 'Canton Car Sheds'.

Agreed...

Wessex never had a chance in that direction. One only has to look at SWT and Salisbury to see the benefit of having an in-house depot and dedicated allocation of units.

FGW have been plesantly surprised that 142's at Exeter have responded in the same way. Considering how unpromising the condition of the units was at the start.

Indeed. The 142's have been turning out around 6500mpc, which bearing in mind the failure rate was measured in yards rather than miles during the first week of squadron service last December is no mean achievement and a tribute to the fitting staff at Exeter depot. As you say 'Mini-Salisbury' effect. The Exeter crews seem to have mastered the occasional irritating faults very well too and can usually overcome minor problems without undue delay. Whether it might be termed 'esprit de corps' or 'comrades in adversity' the 142 operation has surprised many (including it has to be said, me!).

It should be remembered that as well as being the principle DMU depot on FGW, SPM also has a key role in the delivery of the HST service as well. It should also be remembered that a lot of the more irritating faults on 14x/15x that occur out on the road never seem to manifest themselves on the depot, thus giving the impression that nothing has been done on the depot overnight. There are now however several travelling technicians riding around on the units to overcome this issue. There are of course only limited hours to do the various exams of safety critical equipment, thus sometimes items are deferred until a more major exam (requiring a day or more out of service) fall due, thus making best use of the limited resource that is known as FGW West rolling stock. It should be remembered that the 150/2's are still undergoing refurbishment, this I suspect is due to the condition into which they had been allowed to deteriorate by the previous franchise holder.

The SprinterMeister makes a very good point about the advantages of a dedicated depot looking after a single type of unit. If Exeter can keep up 6500mpc for their 142s, or even better it, then they should be in-line for one of Roger Ford's spanners he awards each year (December/January Modern Railways) for best performing depots.

The problem is that the "bus orientated bean counters" in First 's HQ only look at overall costs of maintenance and small dedicated depots like Exeter are always likely to cost more per unit than large depots such as SPM. They are incapable of working out the "value" getting more mpc in terms of goodwill and even possibly attracting more passengers when the travelling public find that their train is more likely to run and reach its destination without failing.

i stand corrected

maybe it seemed higher then as we had more stock in those days to replace knackered sets with?

there is still a long way to go before we are anywhere near as good as salisbury depot (i heard a rumour fgw want our 158's better than swt 159's) not possible in my opinion.when i have reported set faults control have said they will try to get set to exeter as it stands more chance of being repaired first time,make of that what you will.

Exeter was more likely to effect repairs than Canton during the Wessex era, it was always a distinct possibility that the unit would come off Canton with the initial fault fixed but several new faults to take its place.

We had rather more 150/2's in those days, personally I think whoever thought it was a winner to keep the 8 x 143 on FGW and pack 8 perfectly operational and entirely serviceable ex-Wessex 150/2's off to South Wales for Valley Lines / Grumbly Gasworks services wants putting up a wall and shooting. The 8 143's should have gone, thus concentrating the entire class on Canton.

:D No chance. My reason for saying that is SWT 159s were in much better condition to start with after lots of TLC at Salisbury from the time they came into service back in the early 90s. The three car 158s which became 159s from TPX a couple of years back were given such a major refurb they came out almost as good as new. I think I'm right in saying that though FGW 158s were refurbed to a good standard at wabtec, it wasn't as major a refurb as the 158s that SWT took from TPX received.

It was done to the same spec apart from First Class in SWT varietys AFAIAA!

Yes it was a great shame that FGW let 8 of their 150/2s go, probably under orders from DaFT. Still we got 5 of them back whilst we wait for LM to let some 150/1s go.

but not the air con!?!?!

I imagine the SWT 158s had the German System where as most FGW have the original BR!!

No the SWT 158's, 159/0's & /1's  have the original BR aircon plant fitted, the 159/0's all have recieved the Liebherr modifications (extra evaporators) as have certain FGW 158's (158747-9/50-1).

And the SWT stock has certainly not been immune to running around with the emergency windows open.

Air con on 158/9s is great when it works but awful when it doesn't on a hot sunny day because of the lack of windows that can be opened when it fails.

Not true!

If the Go-Ahaed group win the Southern Franchise they will BUY some trains to cover services they provide. As previously stated on this thread First own rolling stock (12 power cars and 42 trailers of HST stock and a few DMU's). I bet your bottom dollar that no approval was asked of the government when they took delivery of these. The key to whether a TOC purchases or leases it's trains lie in the length of it's franchise. For any scheme like this a short 10 year franchise will not re-coup any moneies outlayed when buying. The franchised railway looks like it's hear to stay so in my view the only way to get some decent investment from the private sector is to have longer franchises (20 or 25 years) instead of the piddlely little short one's that we have now!

Whilst on a 158 the other day, It struck me that it couldn't be too difficult to replace all windows with the windows with an open able section...?

That would appear to be the most sensible thing to do.

Couldn't agree more 12hoursunday. At the moment though it seems like DFT are bent on only offering short franchises which I cannot see will benefit the rail network in the long term as why would a company invest heavily in their franchise if they are going to lose it in a few years time. They are only going to do what the franchise specification requiries whilst attempting to make a profit for running the service on behalf of DFT.

not true all swt units now have liebherr air con fitted,the tpe sets were fitted with it at wabtec in donny during refurb.

some of the ex wessex have liebherr 747,8,9 and 51 the rest have the original temerature system as fitted on original build.

I totally agree too. If longer franchises is the only way to make TOC's ownership of trains viable, then it has to be the way to go.

I can see three major benefits from companies owning the stock they use:
1) they would save money compared to leasing;
2) it would make economic sense to have more stock, because working it less hard will make it last longer (and therefore retain more value), and having spare capacity available in the event of failures is obviously good for passengers customers and therefore profits;
3) if some stock is still available for leasing (for short term flexibility), the leasing companies will have to offer a better deal.

Whereas, as we all know, in the current arrangement the leasing companies can charge what they like, and the TOC's can't afford to lease spare stock even if it is available.

And then you get Class 166 storm force 10 syndrome - see How hot were the trains today? in London to Reading, where people see a window and open it, whether or not the a/c is operating.

NOT sensible, believe me! What would be sensible, in the case of both 158s and Turbos, is to fit a/c that actually works and is reliable.

Ah - but the current 158 doors are locked by the traincrew unless it gets too hot or the aircon breaks, so the windows could be opened by the train crew who I would hope were able to operate the air-con/know if its knackered.

But the emergency ventilation windows on 166s were originally intended to be opened only by train crew, like 158s, as there are also only a few hopper windows per coach. I think it was decided to give up locking them due to the interminable problems with the a/c.

THE sensible thing to do, as I said, is fit reliable, robust a/c. Unfortunately, they've missed the chance to standardise the kit in the 158s during refurbishment and with the 166s, I fear nothing will be done to tackle the lousy system when they are 'refreshed', never mind fitting a/c to the 165s like Chiltern did.

Quite frankly I'd be perfectly happy on short journeys without aircon if there were windows that not only open but actually let some air in. I quite like to hear the world outside and smell the rainy air. Maybe it's just me though.

Me too, I find the dry stuffy air unpleasant, but I think we're a small minority Phil -- these days most people seem to think it's essential in trains and cars.

Just about the only time I'm in an a/c environment in this country is when I travel by train. It seems bizarre having it at all in a country where the temperature only goes above 30 degrees every 4 or 5 years. Once a train is moving with the windows open it's not too hot in any weather we are likely to get.

No I am in fact quite correct.

The Liebherr system is a modification to the existing 158 / 159 'Temperature' aircon system to include additional evaporaters / fans in the roof space above the vestibules.  The Compressor / Condensor module underneath the vehicle is in fact the same as was fitted to the 158's from new.

Non of the later 'Ebac' type air con 158's (815-872) have yet recieved the Leibherr Modification, this system is if anything marginally worse as regards relaibilty.

The 159/0's were fitted with additional opening windows (in total 4 each side) some years ago.

i can assure you that is incorrect.

the liebherr system is completely new,the only thing to be retained is the control panel and some wiring.the old underframe is replaced with a 3 phase alternator that drives the 2 new roof module compressors and condensor fans.
the roof modules are a fully contained system so if 1 is knackered the other still works,there is no longer any refridgerent being pumped from below solebar to the roof units.

the later ebac 815-872 have got the vapour stones system mod fitted which is even worse than the temp system.

also you are incorrect about the liebherr being less reliable,have a look at our 3 cars you will find the liebherr carriages very rarely have the windows open as the a/c is working,compare that to the temp ones and most are knackered.

Sorry SM, 'smithy' is right on this one.

The Liebherr A/C system is totally different to the 'as built' Temperature A/C system. Regardless of which one of the two systems is fitted to a particular vehicle, they both work in unison with the Roof vent fans & Saloon underfloor heaters to give a Class 158 its HVAC system. (Heating, Ventilation & A/C)

A few pictures showing the differences in the two systems:

Liebherr 'wedge' 3-phase Alternator module (Hydrostatically driven):
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1092/lieb2.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lieb2.jpg)
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5828/lieb1.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lieb1.jpg)

Temperature 'box' Compressor/Condenser module (Hydrostatically/Internal Belt/Pulley driven):
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8914/temp1.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=temp1.jpg)
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/459/temp2.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=temp2.jpg)

View inside of Temperature Compressor/Condenser module:
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4636/temp3.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=temp3.jpg)

View of Liebherr above-ceiling level combined Compressor/Condensor/Evaporator ACU (A/C Unit):
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2948/lieb3.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lieb3.jpg)

The Liebherr ACU indicator panel, fitted to the bulkhead panel in the cab-end vestibule on each car:
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3081/lieb4.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lieb4.jpg)

Added drivers cab A/C vents that are a bonus of the Liebherr A/C system:
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2332/lieb5.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lieb5.jpg)

Temperature 'Westinghouse' HVAC control panel, as fitted to 158s when built, and used by BOTH A/C systems:
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3241/temp4.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=temp4.jpg)

Close up of HVAC control box, with the OEM data panel & 'ACIS' (Air Con Isolation Switch), which is often prematurely tripped by Train crew, resulting in no HVAC:
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9372/temp5.th.jpg) (http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=temp5.jpg)

These are the two systems fitted to FGWs current 158 fleet.

The Ebac controlled, Vapour-Stone 'water chilled' A/C units as fitted to a selection of Wessex Trains original 1588** (815 - 872, as stated) fleet  members was a trial fitment in attempt to seek an alternative to the problematic Temp. system, however it was proved to be just as ineffective & did not progress further (ie, retro fitment to the rest of the fleet).

Both systems if well maintained can be reliable, permitting procedures are followed:

- Keeping the hopper windows locked shut & vestibule sliding doors closed as much as possible when the A/C is running (otherwise the system gets confused & is constantly trying to over compensate which strains the system & causes incorrect saloon temperatures).
- Following correct vehicle engine shutting-down procedures (If the engine is shut down before the system has Pumped down fully, damage occurs & refrigerant is lost). When a cab ENGINE STOP button is pressed, if running, the HVAC will automatically begin pumping down & will only allow the engine to shut down once it has finished. Pressing the cab STOP button twice within 20secs or using the Emergency 'local' STOP buttons at solebar level will bypass this & shut the engine down instantly, as will any of the engine safety trips (Fire, Low Oil, Low Coolant etc).
-Staff setting up/examining the HVAC equipment properly in the first place using the control panel (making sure that no faults are present & the system is in the right mode).

The Liebherr is in general a marginal improvement over the original system due to the better set-up, ie. Twin independent AC modules (for redundancy) above vestibules, with the 'wedge' module (Devoted power source) below solebar, although it can be harder to maintain/refill due to the ACUs location.

Any questions...!!!!? ;)

That's an impressive lot of technical information - which I'm going to bookmark and come back to read at the weekend.    Would anyone mind if I give it a thread of its own - to help people find both this information, and also the original topic, more easily?

Oh yes  ;D I worked on these many moons ago. Interesting to see that the split air/con has gone, from the pictures (great by the way) it seems that the original alternator is still used, so I guess the new alternator only supplies the air/con? Do they still use the original hydrostatic pump of the back of the engine or has that been replaced with something more modern - I remember the trouble they caused at the time, and mucking around setting up and adjusting the control block on the alternator motors to ensure they didn't trip !

Cheers for the photos !

Welcome to the forum, laffy.

original alternator still fitted new 3 phase does a/c only and is driven by the same pump they used in the temperature a/c.
yep original variable displacement pump (vdp) still fitted which drives both alternators

Crikey! You learn something new every day! Thanks for that. I was informed by somebody less knowledgeable than you two that the Leibherr was a bolt on addition to the existing rather less than relaible 'Temperature' installation.

The Leibherr is far and away the better system and it is a great shame in my view that it wasn't fitted to the FGW 158's that werent already fitted as they passed through shops for refurbishment.

Ebac / Stones Vapour chilled water? The biggest lot of cr8p going, must have been the only plus side of foisting the ex Wessex Angel 158's off to Northern / FSR / EMT.......

my thoughts exactly,going through donny works they should of been liebherred in my opinion.
far more reliable and would be covered by warranty so any defects would of got sorted out.
in fact other tocs who had it fitted had a liebherr engineer based on depot to sort problems out.
as sprog rightly says they can be a pain to regas,the roof modules need dropping to do it but if they are more reliable then it is no major problem.

whoever made the decision not to have it has made a big mistake me thinks?

temperature has always been crap so why they think repairing a 15-20 year old system is going to make it better is beyond me.

Erm ... well, no, actually, grahame I wouldn't mind at all!  :-[

I think my brain might implode into a black hole, otherwise, with all this excellent technical information being presented to it, all at once!  :P ::) ;D

Feel free to

Just to add a bit more if anyone is interested....

There is an easy way to identify which type of A/C equipment a Class 158 has by looking at the Roof vents above the sliding-plug doors at each end of the 'car' (vehicle).

'Temperature' system (as-built):
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/9932/tempam6.th.jpg) (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tempam6.jpg)
(Has a small, but promenant single covered vent)

'Liebherr' system:
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4690/liebfp6.th.jpg) (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=liebfp6.jpg)
(Has a larger but less 'proud' covered vent & a square vent with large grilles)

'Vapour-Stone' (Water Chilled) system:
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7996/vsln7.th.jpg) (http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vsln7.jpg)
(Again, has a larger but less 'proud' covered vent & a square vent but, with a much finer mesh grille)

Thanks for the welcome ;D
I was looking for something on the'net and stumbled across this thread. I bought back some memories. I used to work for BREL and one of my first jobs when I joined was as a junior member of the team that was tasked with re-designing the alternator raft and VDP drive assembly. Lots of structural issues compunded by a torsional vibration problem that just accelerated the problem. I became very familiar with the hydro system !

It sounds as if the mods have been a success, and strange others are carrying on with the original design, but I guess different owners, different TOCs, different franchise lengths etc.......

Can't have been a cheap mod as it looks as though a complete new raft has been designed and I guess there was a fair bit of vehicle re-wiring ?

Cheers

Not at all, laffy - thank you, for joining this forum!

If I may ask, what sort of 'something' were you looking for - a technical site, or a discussion forum?  I only ask because we do try to provide both, here in the Coffee Shop!

You're very welcome to introduce yourself in the 'Introducions and chat' topic, too!

Best wishes, C.  ;)

Many thanks for the pics of the roofs of 158s that show what air con system is in board Sprog, very useful.

I was looking for a picture of a 158 or 165/6 underframe. Googled 158 underframe and this thread came up and I couldn't resist ;D

Again, I might be wrong but I don't think any of the ex-Wessex (Angel) 158's (various between 815-872) with the EBAC - Stones chilled water system ever recieved the Leibherr kit.

That phot I believe to be one of the later imports to Wessex, one of the 158747-751 series that formerly ran with Virgin Trains at one time.

Thankfully Stones chilled water 158 aircon is somebody elses problem now, not FGW's!
 :D :D

The 158 pictured above is 158860.

747-751 are identifiable by having the revised (bodged/makeshift!)-type steel 'snow ploughs' as opposed to the as-built fibreglass obsticle deflectors fitted to the rest of FGWs fleet.

The roof arrangement of the V/Stone & Liebherr system looks very similar from a distance, but they do have differances.

158860 has got liebherr as fitted in 2000-2001 when it was a central trains unit.

a slight correction vapour stones has got the same roof vent as temperature systems because the roof modules are the same to look at.the only difference between the 2 is tempreature has refridgerent running round it and vapout has chilled water.
have a look at the vents on 745 and 746 for confirmation as they were vapour until being converted to temperature last year.

the
Ah yeah, sorry my mistake.

I forget that 860 was an ex CT unit.

I see what you mean about the roof vents, ta Smithy.